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Old 05-07-2008, 04:25 AM   #1
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We have a 10 tank Tank Tender http://www.thetanktender.com/

This gives us 2 extra tanks/things that can be monitored. I'm considering monitoring the water level in the bilge forward of a watertight bulkhead (that we won't usually be visually inspecting) and in the anchor locker. In theory, the tank tender can do this. Has anyone done so?

Thanks!
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Old 05-07-2008, 08:09 AM   #2
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The Topic heading "Adding Anchor Locker To Tank Tender?" followed by "monitoring the water level in the bilge forward of a watertight bulkhead" raises some questions :-

#1. Confirm that this is the anchor locker without a drain, for chain storage?

#2. That the water level will only be established when tested with the Tank Tender?

#3. How will you remove water that has collected in the locker ?
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Old 05-07-2008, 03:50 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by MMNETSEA View Post
The Topic heading "Adding Anchor Locker To Tank Tender?" followed by "monitoring the water level in the bilge forward of a watertight bulkhead" raises some questions :-

#1. Confirm that this is the anchor locker without a drain, for chain storage?

#2. That the water level will only be established when tested with the Tank Tender?

#3. How will you remove water that has collected in the locker ?
1. Yes, that's it. The reason there is no drain is that this is a big locker that takes up 1/2-2/3 of the space in front of a watertight bulkhead--a drain would just go into the bilge in that compartment and would end up being pumped out with the lower (and smaller) one of the watertight compartment's two automatic bilge pumps (the lower one, being smaller, can clog up more easily and we don't want to compromise it with anchor goo). Since we re-built the anchor locker, we contemplated putting a sump in the locker for a bilge pump, but decided it would be a maintenance issue for accessing the pump (removing the 600 ft of 1/2" chain, for example, and putting it all on deck...) and have used a different type of remote pump instead. We also contemplated a drain thru to an accessible location aft of the watertight bulkhead, but the geometry with the boat's structure makes such a drain (and hose) likely to clog with anchor goo anyway.

2. It could be manually/visually assessed by someone going forward and taking a look; but its difficult to do, so will likely be not checked as frequently as should be when on passage (when more water than expected may be making its way past the end stoppers in the chain pipes).

3. There is a hose that extends to bottom of the locker; this hose goes to a manual pump that is used when cleaning out the anchor locker. It does NOT have its own thru-hull and if water were pouring into the anchor locker (but not the rest of the watertight compartment with it's two bilge pumps) and we didn't want to station a person there to man that pump, we would have to turn a few valves so we could then use a different electric bilge pump (the shower pump, actually) to drain the locker out a thru-hull rather than letting the locker fill to the point that it overflows into the bilge of the watertight compartment and is removed by those pumps.

The tank tender works on (static) head pressure, so should work fine in this application. I just don't know anyone who has done so. Ours has the three ft range, so the fidelity should be there for measuring in this application. I don't know that the ones with 6 ft range would work as well.

Do you have a Tank Tender by Hart? or have you used another method for this sort of application?
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Old 05-08-2008, 12:04 AM   #4
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Hi Brenda,

Starting off with answering your last 2 Questions :- " Do you have a Tank Tender by Hart? " No, not now , had them on previous boats. "have you used another method for this sort of application?" Yes, I had port and starboard drains in the bottom of the chain locker that drained collected water to the sea through thru-hulls that were angled aft way above the waterline. I would also use my high pressure deck wash hose to clean the locker with its chain with sea water, plus a rinse with fresh water (when available).

Next :- "would end up being pumped out with the lower (and smaller) one of the watertight compartment's two automatic bilge pumps" this is puzzling, why have 2 bilge pumps in a watertight compartment ?

"It could be manually/visually assessed by someone going forward and taking a look; but its difficult to do" Understood, therefore by remembering to use the Tank Tender, one should be able to establish a water level. If excess water is found by either method, then it will have to be pumped out ? (Preferably by something like a Henderson large bore manual diaphragm pump - which will also handle the goo as you put it)

Next :- "rather than letting the locker fill to the point that it overflows into the bilge of the watertight compartment and is removed by those pumps"

Again, the question, how can water overflow into a watertight compartment ?

As an aside, many multihull designs have watertight collision compartments which were filled with urethane foam, later on these compartments were filled with empty capped plastic bottles - the compartment then sealed.

I would not use a Tank Tender "hose" in a chain locker, if I remember rightly, the end of the hose has to be in a liquid (water, fuel etc) therefore when the tender's pressure is released, chain gunk will have the potential to block the end of the hose. ???

Brenda, your thoughts certainly demonstrate an ability to think out of the box! please keep them coming.

Richard
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Old 05-08-2008, 03:53 AM   #5
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Richard,

Geometry/position

The anchor locker is very far forward in the boat in front of a what is technically a collision bulkhead by its position in the boat and design. We used the US Coast Guard regulations for inspected vessels to determine design and position of the bulkhead. The boat did not originally have such a bulkhead in place. The bulkhead is "watertight" the USCG specified distance above the waterline (sorry, don't recall the exact dimension) and with an opening right below the deck to 12" below the deck (per the same USCG requirements). This opening can have a cover screwed onto it to make it completely separate from the rest of the boat; this is what one would have to do if one were carrying paying passengers and if this were an inspected vessel here in the US. We are not doing so, but we wanted to be able to meet these requirements as if we sold the boat it would very likely be picked up by someone wanting to use it commercially.

The boat is 54' wood construction with a frame ("rib") every 1'. With a plumb bow, the loaded waterline is 47' and starts aft of frame 2/forward of frame 3. The anchor locker sits on top of frames 4 thru 7. The watertight/collision bulkhead is at frame 7. The area in the "watertight" compartment is everything in front of frame 7.

Of course, with two chain pipes going into this compartment in front of the watertight bulkhead, water can enter the compartment. We saw a boat in commercial service set up like our boat, the only difference being that the pipes went down through a cover on the anchor locker--making the locker separate from the watertight compartment. We could do this, but we will not...as we want access (via the opening at the top of the watertight bulkhead) to deal with any problems with the chain stacking as well as clean out the anchor locker. The bulkhead acts as a collision bulkhead nicely even with the chain locker and chain pipes as they are. Since the locker is IN the watertight compartment, that is how it can "overflow" into it

There are two bilge pumps in the compartment because we expect small amounts of water to be likely (recall, carvel planked wood boat) when hard sailing. The lowest point in this forward compartment is between frames 6 and 7, an area directly under the anchor locker. A large pump won't fit there (and be removable) whereas a small one can be placed there and removed with a stick/handle strategically epoxied to it. Its thru-hull is above waterline. If a large amount of water were to enter (say the chain pipes are uncovered and the deck awash with water...who knows why...but if excessive water enters the compartment) a second, larger capacity automatic bilge pump located just in front of the anchor locker takes the water out an above waterline thru-hull. That's the "why 2 bilge pumps". One is low-placed and low capacity the other is higher placed and higher capacity. This is the same way they are placed in our main bilge.

+++

Yes, you've got the idea about monitoring with Tank Tender and then going forward and using a high capacity manual diaphragm pump.

+++

We do plan on cleaning out the locker similar to you, but will end up pumping out the water either with the manual pump or our shower bilge pump as mentioned.

Yes, the hose must be in the liquid. Similar to a holding tank, the end could get gunked up. In holding tanks, a purge valve is used (we haven't rec'v the purge valve we just ordered for the holding tank, so I don't know what it looks like or how delicate it may be). We may have to use a similar thing, don't know. ***THIS is the main reason I decided to post and ask if anyone had done this before.

We purchased the 10 position Tank Tender and starting off, we have three diesel tanks, three water tanks, a black water holding tank. We may later put in a gray water holding tank. So, initially, we have three extra tubes, ultimately we'll have two if we put in the gray water tank.

I immediately thought about monitoring that forward bilge under the anchor locker and the anchor locker itself. We could also monitor the bilge at the lowest point in the boat to know if its filling with water and our regular pump isn't working. I just haven't heard of anyone doing this with the Tank Tender and wonder why not. It seems logical.
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Old 05-10-2008, 02:04 AM   #6
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Tank tender in chain space.

Great Idea !! it seems like the only trouble is the poly tube getting mashed by chain or stuffed with gunk.

How about using P straps to secure a PVC pipe to the after bulkhead and putting the poly tube inside it. Have the tube and pipe end above the sand and gunk line.

Dave
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Old 05-10-2008, 02:58 AM   #7
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Dave,

Great, another lateral thought ! Tank Tender also offer an option for Holding Tank level monitoring :- a "purge" valve toggle switch for holding tank applications. This allows the air to bypass the gauge to clear a holding tank TPF tube, if clogged, then a reading to be taken."

Still have to consider the real factor of the Gunk that is brought up with the chain - especially the heavy clays - this gunk is not going to behave and settle to the bottom, but with boat movement it will be concentrated in the lower levels of the chain locker, just where the 1/8" O/D tube is going to end up (check installation instructions) Is there such a thing as a "sand and gunk line" probably not, as it depends on what is allowed to get into the chain locker and how often it is cleaned out.

Perhaps, Tank Tender Company have some solutions - I will ask them for feedback to this topic.

Richard
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Old 05-13-2008, 07:10 PM   #8
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Hi Richard, David et al,

Water & gunk out of the chain locker has no business getting to the bildge, this is why many boat builders fit small limber holes from the bottom of the chain locker out the side of the bow (dependent upon the lockers volumn these holes might need be plugged or valved so as not to fill the locker going to weather). If you have extra valve holes in your Tank Tender or a ten tank unit with space for another dip tube you can go to the top of the chain locker with a 1/8th inch nylon tubing then with a union switch to 1/8th od stainless tubing to reach down to within an inch of the bottom of the locker, fixing the ss tubing in place with metal tubing clamps & ss self taping screws ( the chain will certainly try to tear up the clamps)

Hopefully this has helped

Best Regards

Hart
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Old 05-13-2008, 07:16 PM   #9
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@ronhart



Welcome aboard. Thank you for the input - most helpful. Please keep an eye on our board as I'm sure you can assist us all with much more. Thank you.
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Old 05-13-2008, 08:31 PM   #10
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Hi,

Still have yet to receive a reply to my queries with Tank Tender company. (Unless Ron Hart is Tank Tender - if it is please ignore my email and thanks for coming back to us - welcome to our forums !!)

One factor that has has not been brought into the equation is :- will the Tank Tender be measuring liquid in the chain locker when the locker is empty of chain? Or will it be necessary to calibrate answers it receives relative to the amount of chain that is still in the locker - depending on what has been let out - a ratio of chain volume to that of liquid ???

It is becoming clear to me, that for a variety of reasons including the very small bore size of the tube, the question of gunk, the boat movement ensuring that gunk will not settle below the level of the tube's outlet , etc.. that the case for monitoring liquid in the chain locker with a Tank Tender is hard to sustain as an option.

My own experience of port and starboard drains in the bottom of the chain locker that drained collected water to the sea through thru-hulls that were angled aft way above the waterline, is complemented by Ronharts post . If these drains are fitted with inline check valves, this should stop any water entering when heeled hard-over.

Richard
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Old 05-14-2008, 05:48 AM   #11
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Hi, all,

Richard,

Though I don't have my Tank Tender installed yet, it is my understanding that it simply measures pressure of the column of water in the tube. Doesn't matter why the water level is high (lots of chain plus water or simply lots of water alone), the point is that one wishes to know if that water level is high enough that one might wish to pump out the chain locker.

You seem to have a different geometry than I do for your chain locker. Yours must be above the waterline, I guess. That means lots of weight up high! conversely, our 1800 lbs of 1/2 bbb chain (that's like 600') is down LOW! where I can be happy that it is (mostly) not above the waterline. However, this means that I have to pump its contents out of the boat rather than have the water drain out by gravity.

I also have wondered about the tube size and gunk. However, having a 10 pos. Tank Tender, we'll see how this works for us in our situation. We'll let you know...of course the boat is still in the yard right now! So, that will be a little while (later in the summer)

Ron,

Thanks! so much for the info about using a stainless steel tube and connect; I'd thought we'd have to use something (e.g. pipe in the corner of the anchor locker to protect the tubing) and was devising ways to have that protective pipe protect both the TankTender tubing and the anchor locker's hose to the manual bilge pump.

Regards all,

Brenda aka "redbopeep"
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Old 05-14-2008, 06:18 AM   #12
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Quoting RonHart,

"" Water & gunk out of the chain locker has no business getting to the bilge, this is why many boat builders fit small limber holes from the bottom of the chain locker out the side of the bow (dependent upon the lockers volumn these holes might need be plugged or valved so as not to fill the locker going to weather).""



Brenda, you are correct, most of my boats had chain lockers the bottom of which were above the water line and which had drains to the outside world. Which meant that I could clean them out with the deck wash down hose.

Richard
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