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Old 12-29-2007, 10:33 AM   #15
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I hope the whole world finds out about the yacht "FREEBIRDS", and that they get what is due to them - and they will!

Their guestbook already shows what real cruisers think of them.
I have just read through FreeBirds web site and am thoroughly appauled by what I read. They say that they were warned against pirate - well I say that they are pirates.

Members and guests of Cruiser Log, should you ever be in the same port, anchorage or marina as FreeBird please direct everyone you meet to their web site so that local tradesmen, marina owners, electricians and engineers are forewarned about the type of people they will be dealing with.

One final word about the irony in this situataion. FreeBird writes in derogatory terms of other nationalities and yet I in years of sailing both for a living and for pleasure in all parts of the world as well as having lived in a couple of African countries and Yemen have only been robbed once and that wes in FreeBirds home town of New York. (Please note that I am not saying New Yorkes are bad but just commenting upon the irony)

Aye // Stephen
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Old 12-29-2007, 12:18 PM   #16
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I've had a quick look at the site and didn't pick up exactly the same vibes as others here.

More importantly, for me, this forum is a pleasant place where participants can ask questions, exchange information or express a reasonable general view of life and the universe; it's very definitely not a place where we should be criticising, judging, pillorying or otherwise making an example of anyone who has themself not chosen to get involved in our chats.

Whether we like them and what they do/did or not, Free Birds are innocents in this thread and they don't deserve to have their name dragged into and thru the mud (here) unless they choose to express their views (here). If any of us want to criticise them, they have a guestbook and that is the place for those who disagree to express their individual view about them and what they do.

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Old 12-29-2007, 12:26 PM   #17
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OMG, they are not cruisers. They are not sailors. They are jerks!

Who buys a 60' boat knowing nothing about sailing, boat maintenance, or basic courtesy? Their problems with the boat are directly attributable to their ignorance. I assume this fellow has buckets of money. I wonder how long it will last?

How can people gleefully boast about stiffing somebody out of their just payment? They are too stupid to know what they don't know.

Whoops! Lost my cool there. I don't want to admit to sharing the same NATIONALITY with this guy. I hope he changes his name or flag. Arrgggh!
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Old 12-29-2007, 12:32 PM   #18
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More importantly, for me, this forum is a pleasant place where participants can ask questions, exchange information or express a reasonable general view of life and the universe; it's very definitely not a place where we should be criticising, judging, pillorying or otherwise making an example of anyone who has themself not chosen to get involved in our chats.
Of course you are right Peter.

All I suggest is fellow cruisers direct marina operators etc to FreeBirds blog. We don't need to be judgmental or critical; those examining FreeBirds blog should be allowed to make up their own minds. I have no doubts whatsoever of the opinions they will come to.

Aye // Stephen
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Old 12-29-2007, 12:39 PM   #19
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Whether we like them and what they do/did or not, Free Birds are innocents in this thread and they don't deserve to have their name dragged into and thru the mud (here) unless they choose to express their views (here).
Peter, you and I seem to have been typing at the same time. I respectfully disagree with you. Their web site adequately expresses their views, and since it's open to all, it's also open to critique and discussion elsewhere. They haven't given the French sailmaker or any of the Ticos in Costa Rica the opportunity to discuss their views before posting them on their web site. They call them thieves while they boast about escaping the Grenadian Coast Guard and brag about not paying their bill, or even discussing the issue before sneaking away.

My opinion of Grenada is low, but somehow a couple who buy a huge boat with absolutely no idea of anything to do with sailing have little credibility in their judgment of those who have performed any service on the boat.

I could go on, but enough.
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Old 12-29-2007, 12:48 PM   #20
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I think that the crew of Yacht Freebirds have done a pretty good job of "bad-mouthing" to themselves - to freely admit that they ran from paying an account (an account not in dispute) - on their own website.

What they did is not a clever act (as they brag about), it is downright dishonesty.

The discussion here is over what is in the public domain on their website and I believe that businesses at their next port of call should be aware of this.

I would not personally wish to associate with them.
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Old 12-30-2007, 02:02 AM   #21
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I remember as a student in Italy years ago shying away from disclosing that I was an American because so many of the "ugly" types were embarrassingly present...the movie caricature of the fellow who yelled in the hope that by speaking loudly he might be understood, as if Italians were somehow in the wrong for not speaking English. But there are bag eggs from every group. I love Italians, but not mafiosi or papagalli. I have met many wonderful Germans, and some their fellow Germans would disavow. My experiences in Paris made me prefer Provence and the Atlantic Coast. I could go on. Cruisers come from every nationality and yet I usually feel as if we're family. Don't you? I admit I haven't cruised much or in many places (hope to change that very soon!), but wherever I've been, most of the other sailors have been friendly and helpful and been grateful for any help we gave them. How horrid that folks like these can give not only Americans, but cruisers in general a bad name and make it hard for others to follow in their wake.

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Old 12-30-2007, 02:24 AM   #22
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I find this which hunt of Freebird rather distasteful, and I do not think posting the web address was with intention of starting such a hunt. It was just an example with reference to one of my comments. I'm not surprized of the reaction, that is one of the reasons I deliberately did not post any references, but there are quite a lot more similar incidents. There is little we may do about it other than see to that our own behavior does not give reason for similar reactions.

However Farfarviking's post is the kind that irrittates the most. Personally I do not care 'what I am', but it would have been better if he had answered my question 'what is a cruiser/yachtie?'. I for certain did not do the trip to meet other yachties, as little as I take a flight to meet other passengers. Had he been slightly more knowledgeable of hurricane/cyclone seasons and normal passage times his commens might have been different. His kind of attitude makes me put him straight in the 'bad' category which luckily is in minority!
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Old 12-30-2007, 05:42 AM   #23
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Haffiman, why do you consider me "bad"? Because I criticized you? You haven't pulled punches in saying that yachties are cheap, looking for free things, and don't spend much. Does that make you "bad"?

"Makes me sad for the good and honest ones, but they seem to get in minority.

Then we have the 'run aways'. It is not without reson that most slipps and haul-outs refuse to launch until all bills have been settled."

You said that. but when people start discussing the Free Birds who are "run aways" you call it a witch hunt.

Then you said that IF I had been "slightly more knowledgeable of hurricane/cyclone seasons and normal passage times his commens might have been different." and that seemed to put me in the "bad" category.

You have no idea what I know, but you are very wrong about what I do not know. Normal passage times my a**. You rushed across two oceans to get to Malaysia in 15 months. You admit you weren't interested in meeting cruisers along the way. Doesn't sound like you're any cruiser. Either you didn't have the money to do it slowly or you were using your boat as a sea-going moving van. No stoppimg to smell the roses for you.
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Old 12-30-2007, 06:01 AM   #24
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I find this which hunt of Freebird rather distasteful, and I do not think posting the web address was with intention of starting such a hunt. It was just an example with reference to one of my comments. I'm not surprized of the reaction, that is one of the reasons I deliberately did not post any references, but there are quite a lot more similar incidents. There is little we may do about it other than see to that our own behavior does not give reason for similar reactions.
There is no witch hund here. The fact that I and others on the Forum condemn FreeBird's behavior is based solely on what is to be read on their website. I don't propose burning them at the stake or any of the other process which were used to detect witches. What I think is only fair is that buisnesses in their path should be aware of what they may be letting themselves in for. We need not slander nor condemn FreeBird. Their website speaks for itself.

I completely endore the sentiment that we must ensure that our behavior does not give rise to similar reactions.

The CruiserLog Forum is, as we have often stated, a friendly place and as such I hate to see any cruisers, marine or boat yard owners or busnisses dragged through the mud here. However, I beloieve we have an obligation to be not only fair and friendly but candid and open too. We must see the world as it is and, hopefully, make it a better place. We must, as cruisers, be cautious so as not to smear our reputations and make ourselves unwelcome in ports and anchorages arround the world. A component in this exercise is the seperating of the wheat from the chaff, the good from the bad. Fortunately the vast majority of cruisers fall into the good catagory but the problem remains of what to do about the bad. This is no court of justice which can impose sanctions, nor are we a professional guild which can ban a guild member. We are simply a group of individuals accross the globe who share a common interest and have been brought together through the magic of the internet. All we can do here is to spread the word and warn others of the good and the bad and just as we name bad yards and marinas so should we, in the sake of fairness, be prepared to name bad boaters (I refrain from using the term cruisers for that catagory of person) or at least refer people to their websites when they are as self condemning as FreeBird's.

Aye // Stephen
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Old 12-30-2007, 10:20 AM   #25
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Nausekaa:

'We are a group of individuals' - very true. But I would add: A group of strong individuals. And we have to be, or we would not survive out there when things gets tough. To me it is not the internet that gets us together, but it may keep us in touch as we get spread around. Boards like this is one way to stay in touch with the comunity,to share experiences etc. However it is also a dangerous place as we have no controle of how and where the info and comments speads and travel. Incidents like the one above, is one side of the story, it might be another - without trying to defend anyone. I have been to places 'warned about' without haveing problems, I have been to 'higly recomended' places and been diasapointed. I have been sitting next table to people condemning incidents earlier in the day which I happend to watch in quite a different perspective when it happened. People ar different with different perceptions of things. Sometimes what is written in a blog or a web page in the heat of the moment, might lok different when things calms down.

Farfarviking:

You meet people on Your way in life. Some at land, some at sea, some at the net. Some becomes close friends, some 'nice to have met' some You wish You never had met. There are people You may have meaningfull discussions with, even if the basic opinion might be different, there are people You just not feel for sosialising with, one way or the other.

Our closest friend on the trip: beatlon.com, unfortunately did not make it around the world and had a sad ending in he Red Sea without the incident hitting 'the news'. Quite some other friends have later dropped by on their way, some we keep contact with on the net, some I have luckily not seen again.

Calling You 'bad' was perhaps not correct, more of the catgory: just don't feel like sosialising with, no need to call me if You pass by.
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Old 12-30-2007, 10:29 AM   #26
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Maybe we should go back to the now clearly extremely dangerous, unanswerable but equally revealing question, "Are we so bad?" created, if I remember rightly, out of a thread which suggested that we might be.

That it has been raised at all is, of course, a sort of denial and, if Jeanne's position is anything to go by, we've now seen some anger and a little bit of bargaining; Readers Digest stuff I know but a pretty well trodden path in the direction of depression and final acceptance.

Be it sailors, cruisers, national politicians, culture or creed, the real point here is that crap doesn't flush itself - an otherwise truly original thought - and there seems little point in sitting around our own parlours whingeing about some remote pile if we're not prepared to get out there and address the problem itself.

If you're still wanting me to come off the fence on this, my answer to the question is a very definite, unequivocal YES/NO totally devoid of any clarification or otherwise confusing arguments to the contrary.

If you disagree with Free Birds and feel strongly enough, of course, you'll, hopefully, be posting your own view of their conduct on their site in which case the pop-corn's on me!

See ya!
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Old 12-30-2007, 10:48 AM   #27
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you'll, hopefully, be posting your own view of their conduct on their site in which case the pop-corn's on me!
That is of course the right place to vent feelings regarding them in particular.

I suggest that THIS debate continue without them.

Are we so bad?
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Old 12-30-2007, 02:37 PM   #28
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Maybe we should go back to the now clearly extremely dangerous, unanswerable but equally revealing question, "Are we so bad?" created, if I remember rightly, out of a thread which suggested that we might be.

That it has been raised at all is, of course, a sort of denial and, if Jeanne's position is anything to go by, we've now seen some anger and a little bit of bargaining; Readers Digest stuff I know but a pretty well trodden path in the direction of depression and final acceptance.

Be it sailors, cruisers, national politicians, culture or creed, the real point here is that crap doesn't flush itself - an otherwise truly original thought - and there seems little point in sitting around our own parlours whingeing about some remote pile if we're not prepared to get out there and address the problem itself.

If you disagree with Free Birds and feel strongly enough, of course, you'll, hopefully, be posting your own view of their conduct on their site in which case the pop-corn's on me!
I don't know if cruisers as a group are more judgmental than other groups of like-minded people. I think that in a forum of people sharing a common interest the discussion of the actions of similar people outside the forum is legitimate. As open as a forum is, there's no backstabbing here, it's all out in the open for everyone to see.

Newbies to cruising reading FreeBirds' blog might not know just how wrong-way their approach to cruising is, and think it's easy to emulate. I recognize that it is not my place, or that of anyone else on the board, to educate the world about cruising. When I see behavior like the FreeBirds, however, I see no reason not to comment on it - after all, they have put out their opinions and experiences for all the world to see.

I went back to FreeBirds' blog and visited their guestbook. Surprisingly there was only one negative comment to their postings. I guess I should have left mine, as well, but seriously, do you really think that what I say to them will change their behavior? I doubt it.

Back to "are we so bad?"

I don't think so. What I've always liked about the cruising lifestyle is the incredible variety of people sharing this common interest. People we would never have met in our normal work-a-day lives that have enriched us immeasurably.

In any group of people there are certainly going to be some bad eggs, but to say that countries such as Fiji are getting tired of cruisers? I didn't see that when we were there either time, and I don't believe it's true now. I would bet that cruisers are the primary income source for the Royal Suva Yacht Club and are certainly welcomed there. Some clumsy and slightly inexperienced cruisers arrive there, but they are soon on their way. No, I am sure that there are other issues at play there.

French Polynesia makes itself very welcoming to cruisers, and has protected itself from the occasional bad egg with its repatriation bond policy and its requirement that all cruisers be out of French Polynesia by November 1 - to give them time to find safe haven before cyclone season begins.

My unpleasant reaction to FreeBirds' blog was due to what I said - they are NOT cruisers, they happen to be dopes on a boat (not to be confused with soap on a rope) who give the cruiser a bad name. Maybe they'll behave better once they learn how to sail and how to cruise, but their apparent pride in their lack of knowledge leaves me doubtful.

The value of this thread is perhaps in recognizing how others see us, and in discussing what is appropriate behavior for cruisers, or any other guest in a country, for that matter.

SeaVenture - is Italian "papagalli" the same as South American "mariposas", or American "queens"?
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