Are We So Bad?

[imagine2frolic]

I just dropped FREEBIRDS a note, and they must be reading entries before they get posted. It has not appeared. I will check again in a couple of hours.

[Hud3]

Peter,

I posted a note in their Guest Book, too, hoping to get some sort of reaction or debate from them. It never appeared. By deleting posts that are challenging or critical of them, I think Brad has made his statement--he doesn't give a damn what anyone thinks. He probably even believes that everything he's done and said is justified and appropriate. (I say "he" because he's the one writing the log. There's no evidence that Petra shares his views.)

In thinking about this, I've come to a realization. When we come across an attitude like his in a big city, the reaction might be "oh, what a jerk", but it's not that unusual an experience, so we shrug it off. In a small, rural community like my wife and I lived in after we retired, the reaction would be much more like what has been expressed on this Forum--shock, indignation, outrage, and maybe a feeling of embarassment that someone in "our community" could behave so poorly, and that his behavior somehow reflects on all of us.

In that sense, maybe the cruising community, although it is a world-wide community, is nonetheless like a small town, where everyone (well, almost everyone) shares a common bond, a common set of values, and a sense of community pride. Certainly cruisers behave like small town residents in many respects. They are friendly and open to others who come into their midst, they spontaneously help each other when a need arises, they are trusting and open (until that trust is betrayed), generous, etc., etc.

And like a small community on land, the word spreads quickly. Cruisers who "break the Code" will find that their reputation precedes them, and perhaps be surprised at the consequences of that fact within the cruising community. Unfortunately, their behavior does nothing but reinforce the negative stereotypes of cruisers held by those that we deal with on land.

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[Nausikaa]

Unfortunately, their behavior does nothing but reinforce the negative stereotypes of cruisers held by those that we deal with on land.

Hud,

This is the very issue isn't it? The obdurate conscience of the old sinner, not submitting to our postings in their guestboook, recognises no wrong in that which has been done. If, as seems the case, the old sinner, read FreeBird, is not repentive then, for the sake of the cruising community at large, it is vital to forewarn businesses in their path. If we do not do this then we will end up all being tarred with the same brush.

We need not cast abuse at FreeBird nor need we claim that they are dishonest. Thier own website does this more than adequately. Just point people in that direction and they will soon get the picture.

Aye // Stephen

[imagine2frolic]

What I find scary is that on their site there seems to be many newbies. These people seem oblivious to what they are saying about their own deeds. As I stated before they will someday find themselves prisoners of themselves. The sooner the better.

Imagine is a unique cat in her design, and colors too. I find that no matter where I go people approach me that have seen me someplace else. Freebirds's actions will soon be realized by many. It won't be long, and they will start getting turned away, ripped off, and basically shunned by the community we all live in. My recognition is a good thing. I make friends, and share knowledge. Their recognition will begin to haunt them.............

[Nausikaa]

Originally Posted by imagine2frolic

Freebirds's actions will soon be realized by many. It won't be long, and they will start getting turned away, ripped off, and basically shunned by the community we all live in. ....................... Their recognition will begin to haunt them.............

It can't come too soon!

Aye // Stephen

[SeaVenture]

While we are decrying bad behavior, might we mention that robbing someone's lobster pot is also a no-no? I just received a post from some folk who were so proud of themselves because they had "liberated" lobsters from some fisherman's pot. I know that when I put out crab pots back in NC, I certainly don't want someone coming along to help himself. And I'm not trying to make my living out of fishing/crabbing/lobstering. The theft took place in Mexico, where fishermen are more than happy to sell a few lobsters for practically nothing--or to trade them.

As the Seven Seas Cruising Assoc. says it, let's leave a clean wake.

Just my rant for the day.

Normandie

[JeanneP]

Stealing lobsters? That could get a yachtie shot in Maine or Long Island Sound!

How insensitive those people must be! There's no mystery to how little money the average Mexican worker earns, and to deprive them of even that?

Another one of my stories.

During a horrendously uncomfortable bash to windward leaving the Solomon Islands headed for Vanuatu (the weather reporting stories of this trip is for another day), we decided to turn around and take shelter someplace on the South coast of Makira Island. None of the guides and reports of anchorages in the Solomons mentioned any nearby anchorages on Makira so we took a chance on a deep bay we found on the chart. Going in, we were greeted by two canoes who guided us to a sheltered anchorage. We invited them aboard and had a lovely visit. While sitting there, I mentioned that we were willing to trade for lobsters, but that we would be leaving the next morning. About 4 or 5 in the morning, Peter went on deck to check the weather for our departure in a few hours, and heard a discreet cough - one of the fellows was hanging onto our stern in his canoe, waiting for us to get up. Peter invited him aboard, and he brought a large sack of lobsters with him. Without counting them, Peter asked him what he wanted for the lobsters. In our cockpit was a small glass oil lamp that we had bought for very little money in one of the markets in the islands. The fellow said that he would like the lamp. Peter said he was welcome to the lamp, but what else did he want? The fellow said that he would be satisfied with the lamp. Peter then said that he wasn't sure that was enough for the lobsters, but the fellow said that if he got the lamp he would have the only light source in his village! Peter gave him the lamp and our lamp oil, the fellow said a sincere thank you and went on his way. When I got up at sunrise, there were no villagers to be seen, and we wanted to get going before the weather turned bad again, so I didn't have a chance to give more to the village!

That lamp probably cost us no more than $2.00. We were in a bay that, to our knowledge was never visited by foreign yachts (the schoolteacher who had come by the evening before and to whom we had given some of the school supplies we carried - pens and exercise books - said there had never been a foreign yacht in the bay in his lifetime). We could have been robbed, murdered, whatever, and nobody would have been the wiser, yet instead we were treated with grace and courtesy. And got wonderful lobsters honestly for next to nothing! There is no need to steal.

I have pages...., pages.... of stories like this, from just about every place we stopped in our meanderings. I would be exceedingly rude to anyone who would tell me a story of their stealing from some poor developing world fisherman like that.

I HATE that.

Off the soapbox.

[MMNETSEA]

Around this time some three years ago - Lighthouse and I were "burning the midnight oil" while reporting on the lot of our Cruising Fraternity in the immediate wake of the the Great Tsunami which struck Sumatra, Thailand, Sri Lanka and Malaysia on the 26th December 2004. We reported on the whereabouts and known condition of over a thousand Cruising yachts and their crews.

Not one single report of a cruising yachtie behaving selfishly, badly or criminally was received. Quite the contrary, many stories of real heroism! Quiet assistance to others in dire straits was common place. Having personally received literally hundreds of letters, messages regarding yachts and their crews who had gone to the assistance of others - often at great risk to themselves, is the real testament as to how different this community is when compared to many others.

If we take the example of the Girl who lost her boat and her house in Telaga, Lankawi - Malaysia, who a few days later was ferrying supplies to Northern Sumatra and tending to the injured on the coast of N. Sumatra from another Cruising Yacht "Sean Paquito". Also in Telaga the crews off the yachts "Tenacity II" and "Deusa" who saved many yachts from sinking and damage, at no small risk to themselves. In Phi Phi Island "Winddancer" during the surge managed to finally get ashore and give professional medical help to many of the injured and dying.

These examples are but a few of the many, many other examples that exhibited the true character and spirit of the Cruising Clan three short years ago. No looting of boats that were damaged or sunk took place. No one claimed salvage. Post - Great Tsunami, for weeks later "yachties" were delivering help to communities who had lost everything. Helping to rebuild homes, providing funds and help to replace fishing boats that were lost.

The history of their mindfulness and kindness is not forgotten !

[SeaVenture]

"The history of their mindfulness and kindness is not forgotten !"

Thank you for that reminder. In light of the stories we've read of folk thinking only of themselves, it's good to remember that so many behave well, with a giving heart and a true sense of noblesse oblige--even when their oblige comes from a right spirit instead of personal wealth. (Of course, as Jeanne points out, we have so much...and it often takes so little to make a difference in another's life.)

N

[haffiman37]

As much as I admire those who jumped in and did heroic jobs trying to rescue what could be rescued in both Telaga Harbor and Rebak Marina, there might be others that are not too high on my list.

I have met quite a few people still here struggeling to get what remained back to what it was. Sadly a lot of stories of how the boats in several cases had been 'robbed' from whatever could be used and removed like rigging parts, stanchions and other equipements.

Where the parts went, I will not speculate on, but there is an inoficial 'black list' of yachts that better stay away from this area as well as stories about yachts welcome back anytime due to their efforts in the difficult times.

[Lighthouse]

Originally Posted by haffiman37

... there might be others that are not too high on my list.

... Sadly a lot of stories of how the boats in several cases had been 'robbed' from whatever could be used and removed like rigging parts, stanchions and other equipements.

... but there is an inoficial 'black list' of yachts that better stay away from this area

I find it deeply disturbing that you should make such statements and accusations without offering a shred of supporting evidence. I believe this to be a very uncalled-for and cowardly approach - to make such statements without having the guts to submit real evidence. If you have any evidence, then offer it here now!

Were you there at the time? Or, is this simply some bar talk that you have been party to?

".. 'black-list' of yachts that better stay away from this area". Are you suggesting that this threat is coming from you, a self-elected local "Mafia"? If not, then WHERE FROM?

The Tsunami incident was a time of great loss and sadness and MANY cruisers did a great deal to assist at the time, as well as assisting in the long-term healing process. I am shocked and angry at the tone of your post above.



My humble apologies for my rant to all the readers of this thread and all members of the Cruiser Log Forums.

[Gallivanters]

I believe this thread should be titled "AM I SO BAD?"

It seems to me that the person who started this rant is the sort of person who tries to bolster his self esteem at the expense of others around him who do not measure-up to his narrow criteria. Why else would the first two replies to his own opening statement be from himself? I immagine he has very few close friends. Who replies to his own message?

Half-a-Man reminds me of another trouble-maker whom I first met in Guam and last saw in Rebak. He was the sort of fellow who seemed to enjoy watching others scramble to extinguish fires which he had (figuratively) set himself. Sure - he had a nice boat, but quickly became a real pain-in-the-neck who would loudly bad-mouth and critisize anything and anyone because they didn't see things his way or serve a useful purpose in his selfish, shallow world. I immagine that Captain Haffiman and John D. are best pals in Rebak, sharing a corner table, complaining about the half empty glass (and everything else) in front of them, yet always with one hand hidden behind their back.

Don't worry - I will not try to look for you or call-by when I get back that way. Life is too short to hang around negative people such as yourself, because (in my opinion) they try so hard to bring me down to their own, low level. I only hope you haven't soured the region by your presence... and that you and John have worn-out your welcome and are long gone by the time we return.

FYI - There's an informal "black list" for people like you, too.

My name is Kirk McGeorge. Please say hi to John and feel free to punch him in the nose for me. He'll understand.

To Life!

Kirk

[JeanneP]

Aaaah, Kirk, we hear too little from you lately. You really know the right thing to say, too.

give us a shout when you decide to head north, maybe we can meet up somewhere.

Peter & Jeanne

[Nausikaa]

Methinks it is time to put this one to bed unless there is someone out there who is prepared to offer substansiated facts and not just opinions regarding the bad side of cruisers.

We have heard of FreeBirds whom, by their own admition. should be shaking prison bars rather than enjoying sundowners in their cockpit. Shocking but we have also heard of the overwhelming good many cruisers have performed. The jury here has returned a vertict of not guilty due to lack of evidence.

To the defendents, I offer my congratulations on having presented a good case. Cruisers really seem to be the salt of the earth. To the accuser I say go and lick your wounds, ponder why the reaction was as it was and come back if and when you can present suficient hard evidence for a re-trial.

Aye // Stephen

[Peter Owen]

For the record and before we go off onto another hang him high campaign, this thread was not started by Haffiman but by Aussie who moved Haffiman's posts out of the context of a thread started by Jeanne; this without his (Haffiman's) knowledge on which he commented a little later.

This thread is, therefore, about the question(s) posed by Aussie and that is what we should be addressing here.

This question itself, of course, is a nightmare because it's asking us as a group - I'm one of the aspiring ones - to reflect on our own attitudes and actions and compare them to our own otherwise unwritten creed. In this and because we all congregate here, we're pretty sure to find that our views and actions, in general, are justified in terms of common decency and mutual respect but we're almost inevitably going to have to find some "bad guys" to prove how good we are.

So far, we've had the real bad guy who runs the Freebirds site who we slagged off but didn't do much about and now we've turned our attention to Haffiman who was, like me, upset by the Freebirds witch hunt but seems to have crossed swords with a couple of us cos, someone suggested that he wasn't a cruiser and he's also dared to suggest that some, who others might see as cruisers, weren't applying the rules of common decency, respect and heroism which we all apparently accept as the standard.

If we look back thru the thread and accept a much broader definition of cruisers than those here on this board and that one bad apple will eventually rot the whole barrel, the answer has to be YES. If, however, we take a more limited view ie just those represented here, the answer's going to be a pretty resounding NO, after all we're all decent, upstanding people of the world, aren't we?

Frankly, I don't think that there's much more juice in this thread - maybe you'd like to apply your thought to the natural sequitur that I'm about to start.

See ya.

[Auzzee]

When I stared this thread, I named it 'Are we so bad' in response to a series of derogatory generalisations which had been made, by a member, who proposed a view of the cruising community with which I did not agree.

For me to have passed public judgement, given my indignation over the accusations, would have placed me firmly in the category of whingers that I felt was the preserve of the person whose views had caused me start the thread in the first place.

I therefore asked the question of the worldwide cruising community. The answers speak for themselves.

Proferring informed criticism will always pique the interest of others who share common knowledge, and it will invite healthy, thoughtful debate. Habitual criticism without foundation will however, soon sour on good people who choose to live and speak positively...and who relish the company of others who do the same. These people are the underlying strength of Cruiser Log.

Occasionally we hear from pessimists, and from those who have little good to say about anyone removed from their own immediate circle. But I think the overwhelming optimism and good humour of CL discourages them in short order.

I sincerely thank those who see good in others, and those who have qualified their criticisms who have contributed to this thread. To paraphrase Stephen and Peter, lets forget about the ratbags and concentrate on the more pleasant aspects of the cruising life.

Cheers

David.

[JeanneP]

Sadly a lot of stories of how the boats in several cases had been 'robbed' from whatever could be used and removed like rigging parts, stanchions and other equipements.

I think I'm beating a dead horse here, but I can't resist. I keep coming back to sweeping generalizations.

It has been my experience that the worst of the salvors/thieves after a boat disaster are the local residents who don't know that there are rules to salvage, or who figure that this is "their" land, they can take whatever washes up on it. I have seen it throughout the U.S., the Bahamas, the Caribbean, the South Pacific, and various places in SE Asia. I have read in the SSCA Commodore's Bulletin of the same thing. The worst theft I saw was in Boston, Massachusetts (USA) and Margarita Island, Venezuela. The most annoying of the Boston episode was the ignorance of the police on the scene who allowed the "salvaging" to occur and refused to step in and stop it when the owner of the boat begged them to help him.

I would not be surprised if the same didn't occur after the Tsunami. Not to justify it, I can believe that a few of the beleaguered locals took whatever they could to try to salvage what they had lost. And there are always the opportunists, whether cruisers or others.

I think that accusations from somebody who wasn't there and who makes rather belligerent statements on the scantiest facts are inappropriate.

[Peter Owen]

Bloody hell, Jeanne, control yerself! It's a dead topic; it is no more, it is deceased - or was, at least, dying a quiet, natural death until ..... "belligerent"?

See ya!

[Lighthouse]

I do believe that this topic has run it's course. All paticipants have had enough opportunity and time to "defend their honour" if they wanted.

Let's move on to more positive subjects! Let's talk cruising! There is so much GOOD about cruising!

Thank you all.

TOPIC CLOSED.