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Old 07-18-2004, 04:14 AM   #1
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Default Armed vs Unarmed

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Armed vs. Unarmed

« Thread started on: Apr 5th, 2004, 03:19am »

I'm wondering about having a gun or guns aboard-for protection. I've heard argumants both pro and con. But it seems that I've met more and more people who prefer not to have guns aboard. Anyone here have views about it?

Fair Winds,

SG

63.93.78.186

sailorgirl
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Old 07-18-2004, 04:15 AM   #2
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You've hit my hot button [V] [V]

« Reply #1 on: Apr 5th, 2004, 5:52pm »

Peter and I are firmly on the side of NO GUNS. First, you must relinquish them whenever you enter a country, so they're not available while you are in the country, only when in transit from one country to the next. To fail to declare your gun is a serious, serious offense - I believe that in Bermuda it's 6 years in jail!

I've written quite a bit about this. On Watermelon's web site, see:

www.cruiser.co.za/hostmelon2.asp

General Bits and Pieces, the last entry is: Piracy

and our friend's reported pirate attack is at

www.cruiser.co.za/hostmelon39.asp

Note that he felt that having a gun would not have done them a bit of good. Others have expressed the same sentiment.

Final comment. When a stranger comes to your boat and you have a gun on board, you have to make a decision right away as to whether you are going to shoot this person. Hundreds of visitors to our boat in some very out of the way places, and not a one was anything but friendly and generous.

Fair winds,

Jeanne

152.163.252.229

YACHT WATERMELON

"We went cruising for a couple of years - after 16 years we're still 'cruising for a couple of years'"

http://www.cruiser.co.za/hostmelon.asp

Direct CHAT with JeanneP is available on her website.
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Old 07-18-2004, 04:16 AM   #3
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Re: Armed vs. Unarmed

« Reply #2 on: Apr 15th, 2004, 08:20am »

Hi, This is a subject that deals with emotions rather than knowledge learned firsthand. The anti-gun person will remain anti and the pro-gun will remain pro. The same politician who lives in a safe country and has armed guards will happily tell the yachtie, who is going to a dangerous area not to have a gun to protect themself.

It comes down to how you feel and what your experience with guns is. A good book to read would be PIRATES ABOARD by Klaus Hympendahl.

Remember only a few yachts are actually attacked by pirates in any one year, so do not be deterred from having a great sail. Happy Sailing.

202.67.64.155

Gone Troppo
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Old 07-18-2004, 04:17 AM   #4
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What's a dangerous place?

« Reply #3 on: Apr 15th, 2004, 5:32pm »

And why would anyone willingly go to such a place? One thing that frustrates me is the perception that the world outside of our own "comfort zone" is dangerous. There are, of course, "dangerous" places, but for the mot part, it's not that hard to avoid them. As much as we wanted to visit the Philippines two years ago, we would have been leaving from Borneo, and there had been too many cases of kidnapping of foreigners by Philippine separatists for us to feel comfortable sailing through their area in order to reach a safer part of the Philippines. But had the weather been a bit more settled then, we probably would have gone anyway - I think we used the kidnapping/violence threat for the first time to opt out of difficult weather sailing.

I agree that the gun/no gun issue is full of emotion, little logic. However, I might point out that just about every reported case of a cruiser having and brandishing a gun has resulted in that cruiser being shot, either by another gun, OR THEIR OWN!

Enough. I know better than to get into these discussions, but the thought of a cruising yacht coming into a peaceful anchorage and brandishing a gun at every gentle villager who comes by makes me shudder. And if you don't have the gun in your hand when those people come by, you're not going to get the chance to use it.

64.12.116.199

YACHT WATERMELON

"We went cruising for a couple of years - after 16 years we're still 'cruising for a couple of years'"

http://www.cruiser.co.za/hostmelon.asp

Direct CHAT with JeanneP is available on her website.
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Old 07-18-2004, 04:19 AM   #5
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Re: Armed vs. Unarmed

« Reply #4 on: Apr 16th, 2004, 3:08pm »

.....a delicate and MUCH discussed subject......my solution is a 12 ga. flare pistol ......legal (required) on all crusin' boats.....mostly for my own peace of mind........a shot into the air (not at the intruder, although I would imagine that being hit at close range with a flare pistol would be very disconcerting) would alert EVERYONE for miles around that there's trouble in paradise and would also alert the intruder that someone is now on the way to your boat and he had better get his butt outta there ..........that's my story, Bob

199.183.231.81

choupiquebob
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Old 07-18-2004, 04:21 AM   #6
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Re: Armed vs. Unarmed

« Reply #5 on: Apr 16th, 2004, 3:42pm »

I agree with "Bob". A 12 ga flare pistol, you keep it near the helm right out in plain sight right!!, where it is handy, you do know how to use it don't you and how to reload it quickly, ( ok where are the spares??) is probably a most efficient "weapon" if you need one. Just make up your mind before hand that if you shoot someone with it , you will more than likely kill that person.

66.41.168.216

Don
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Old 07-18-2004, 04:22 AM   #7
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More thoughts

« Reply #6 on: Apr 16th, 2004, 5:18pm »

I am, at heart, a city girl. My working life was spent in Boston, and I refused to be a prisoner of fear. I learned very, very quickly that the louder you were, the more noise you made, the more attention you got and the faster a ne'er-do-well ran away. I once chased five young kids mugging a woman by running down the street screaming my lungs out! They ran, fast! In total, I think I used this tactic about three times while living in Boston, and was never successfully mugged.

The point. When we were concerned about boarders and possible problems, we installed an alarm system - actually, it was a car alarm, made lots and lot of noise. It was activated by a pressure pad if someone should step into the cockpit. It also could be activated by a panic button. Although it was never set off except by us when we tested it occasionally, it fit in with out philosophy of "passive" resistance. Thieves in general want as little attention paid to them as possible.

Another strategy.

Fair winds,

205.188.116.199

YACHT WATERMELON

"We went cruising for a couple of years - after 16 years we're still 'cruising for a couple of years'"

http://www.cruiser.co.za/hostmelon.asp

Direct CHAT with JeanneP is available on her website.
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Old 07-18-2004, 04:23 AM   #8
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Re: Armed vs. Unarmed

« Reply #7 on: Jun 3rd, 2004, 11:13pm »

I carry aboard a Visor 9mm Pistol. As my father tells me: He'd rather see me in jail for a weapons offence than dead because I couldn't defend myself. I do declare my weapon and it is not always taken, in fact, you'd be surprised how often they just don't ask.

Robin Scott Johnson

Skipper of Hard Knots

on Apr 5th, 2004, 03:19am, sailorgirl wrote:I'm wondering about having a gun or guns aboard-for protection. I've heard argumants both pro and con. But it seems that I've met more and more people who prefer not to have guns aboard. Anyone here have views about it?

Fair Winds,

SG

68.108.204.142

Skipper

Hard Knots

Tempe, Arizona

1972 Newport 20
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Old 07-18-2004, 04:24 AM   #9
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Re: Armed vs. Unarmed

« Reply #8 on: Jun 26th, 2004, 10:02pm »

I have to get involved in this one. There is an analysis where it was found that of 10 cases where people had arms on board one in fact got shot (peter blake) in 7 cases it was enough to brandish a gun and in two cases warning shots were fired.

The unarmed ones cannot tell their story.

What is a dangerous place? St.Helena should not be - right??

well about 2 years ago the governor of st.helena sent warnings to the south africa yachting press that at least one yacht, possibly two were thought lost by the actions of pirates. This came to light as a further (unseccessful) attempt was made by a (assumed) Korean fishing vessel on a convoy of two yachts.

The fishing vessel tried to run the yacht down and carried no nav lights and had no other lights on. As such it was a clear case of attempted murder.

There are many countries that are not very worried about firearms, provided you can prove that the weapon is licensed in your country of origin.

For instance South Africa will give you a temporary import permit for up to 180 dyas that even allows you to carry the weapon concealed loaded and ready for self defense.

Angola has no firearms law at present and you may do as you like.

As far as waving a gun at every harmless villager, that is total nonsense. Part of proper self-defense training is reading body language. We could spot "hostiles" in a crowd of 7000 people by simple observation, I have trained body guards and tribal chiefs, been a specialist and have amongs other things published the book SMALL ARMS, SHOOTING AND BALLISTICS, 512 pages of it with 400 photos and 200 drawings and graphs.

To have weapon is meaningless if you dont have the training, just like any other tools without the skill to use it. I have studies the case of peter blake, and I am sure, that I would not have been killed. He had no skill with the weapon, he had no plan to use it either. Just like a simple fire extinguisher is almost useless in the hands of an untrained person. You can judge the latter only when you done a firefighting course, so it is with weapons.

winfried

196.20.31.121
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Old 07-18-2004, 04:25 AM   #10
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Re: Armed vs. Unarmed

« Reply #9 on: Jun 27th, 2004, 12:07am »

I agree, but I do live in Arizona where we're allowed to carry openly. I don't fault people who don't want to carry, but they don't seem to realize it's people like me who protect them. Most police who have found that I am armed simply run a check to make sure it's not been reported stolen, as we're not required to register firearms or have a license, although I had a pistol confiscated in Montana several years ago which mysteriously disapeared while in the Yellowstone County Sheriff Department's custody. Some people have been conditioned their whole lives to fear firearms, which is ashame because to you and I, a gun is just a tool. Like any tool it can be used properly, and it can be misused. Responsible people use them properly, and don't have any problems. We've seen those who have a "no guns" stance and it's like a religion to them. They feel as passionately about it as somepeople do about the abortion issue. I'm one who feels that people have a right to their opinion, but many who are on the exteme totalitarian side(UN angle that nobody should be armed) also seem to feel that people should be vilified for presenting the argument that responsible and good people can carry arms. I don't mean to critique your e-mail, but if you're going to give a stat, try and putting the source in there. It'll help your argument.

-Robin

« Last Edit: Jun 27th, 2004, 12:22am by robinsvoyage » 68.108.204.142

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Hard Knots

Tempe, Arizona

1972 Newport 20
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Old 07-18-2004, 04:26 AM   #11
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Re: Armed vs. Unarmed

« Reply #10 on: Jun 27th, 2004, 3:00pm »

Hi Robin,

The site is yachtpiracy.org run by a german whos name is mentioned by another post above in connection with a book the man has written on piracy.

I have lived with weapons best part of my life and could adopt a friendly attitude in dangerous situations, knowing the I can draw and fire and hit a close up target instictively under one second.

I have been in hell holes at times, where nothing but my confidence kept me safe. It was often a matter "if this guy is here alone he must be a lunatic or very dangerous" and I was left alone. I came to the conclusion, as a dog can smell somebodies fear and bites, our actions and body language to an extend invites or or repells and attack as well.

With one exception, I can say, the smaller the village, the friendlier and more decent the inhabitants are. Anyway, I will be armed one way or another, gun or blowpipe, dagger or crossbow, softpoint or poisoned arrow, fireextinguisher or club.

I do not touch alcohol or drugs, and never start aggression, but I will not be come an underdog to crime either.

Ther comes something to my mind. I suppose you know the hiscocks. They went again to the chagos archipelo where south african cruisers go for a year usually. British territory - uninhabitet. Then on their last visits, one south african bully, declared himself king of the islands and decided who moores where and made everybodies life total misery. Everybody cowed down to him. I would have sorted him out.

Also, today, so many people are afraid to stop and help another man in trouble. I have awlways and will aways stop and see if I can help. At the same time, I will not walk blindly into a trap and I will be armed. I suppose without being armed, I would not stop either. Ever stopped a rape case in progress? I have.

regards winfried

196.20.31.121
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Old 07-18-2004, 04:27 AM   #12
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Re: Armed vs. Unarmed

« Reply #11 on: Jul 6th, 2004, 1:23pm »

It isn't about carrying a weapon - it's about being ready, willing and able to use one.

Unless your weapon is ready at immediate notice, it's useless. Unless you have the mindset to kill without hesitation once you have made the decision to use the weapon, it's useless. Unless you have the skill to use the weapon effectively, it's useless.

In all three cases, not only is it useless, it's also dangerous. You will have escalated the conflict and it is incredibly diificult to de-escalate once guns come out.

Whichever you decide, and there are many good arguments on both sides of the debate, make a plan that includes good judgement and risk-awareness. Once you've made a plan, use it or lose it!

My preference is for carrying a weapon - if you're not sure why, read http://www.bigeye.com/donotgo.htm

213.209.160.37

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Old 07-18-2004, 04:29 AM   #13
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Re: Armed vs. Unarmed

« Reply #12 on: Jul 7th, 2004, 01:36am »

I would never pull out my gun unless I knew I had to use it, but I do know immediatly when it is necessary, and so do most responsible gun owners. With terrorists targeting Americans and Britons it is even more imparative that we are not defenceless. Why do you think Saudi Arabia just began allowing Americans to carry guns with a permit there last week when they were forbidden before

-Robin

quote author=sa1838 link=board=Forum&num=1081127980&start=11#0 date=1089113037]It isn't about carrying a weapon - it's about being ready, willing and able to use one.

Unless your weapon is ready at immediate notice, it's useless. Unless you have the mindset to kill without hesitation once you have made the decision to use the weapon, it's useless. Unless you have the skill to use the weapon effectively, it's useless.

In all three cases, not only is it useless, it's also dangerous. You will have escalated the conflict and it is incredibly diificult to de-escalate once guns come out.

Whichever you decide, and there are many good arguments on both sides of the debate, make a plan that includes good judgement and risk-awareness. Once you've made a plan, use it or lose it!

My preference is for carrying a weapon - if you're not sure why, read http://www.bigeye.com/donotgo.htm [/quote]

68.108.204.142

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Hard Knots

Tempe, Arizona

1972 Newport 20
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Old 07-18-2004, 04:30 AM   #14
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Re: Armed vs. Unarmed

« Reply #13 on: Jul 7th, 2004, 10:37am »

Greetings from Saudi Arabia.

on Jul 7th, 2004, 01:36am, robinsvoyage wrote:Why do you think Saudi Arabia just began allowing Americans to carry guns with a permit there last week when they were forbidden before

Not quite true I'm afraid. All though it was widely publicised the way you present it, in essence the reality, as reported at http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1§ion=0&arti...d=25&m=6&y=2004, is somewhat different:

Quote:“In principle a Saudi has the right to carry a weapon, if he has a permit. Likewise a foreign resident, if he felt in danger, could get a permit to carry a weapon. By weapons I mean a personal weapon which a person can have in his own country,” Prince Naif said

You have to get a permit and so far there are no regulations in place to deal with the mechanics of that. When there are, it ain't going to be easy. It will be a long while before the xpats are tooled up!

213.209.160.37

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