Go Back   Cruiser Log World Cruising & Sailing Forums > Cruising Forums > General Cruising Forum
Cruiser Wiki Click Here to Login

Join Cruiser Log Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 07-18-2004, 04:14 AM   #1
imported_admin
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Armed vs Unarmed

Topic moved from old board:

Armed vs. Unarmed

« Thread started on: Apr 5th, 2004, 03:19am »

I'm wondering about having a gun or guns aboard-for protection. I've heard argumants both pro and con. But it seems that I've met more and more people who prefer not to have guns aboard. Anyone here have views about it?

Fair Winds,

SG

63.93.78.186

sailorgirl
__________________
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2004, 04:15 AM   #2
imported_admin
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

You've hit my hot button [V] [V]

« Reply #1 on: Apr 5th, 2004, 5:52pm »

Peter and I are firmly on the side of NO GUNS. First, you must relinquish them whenever you enter a country, so they're not available while you are in the country, only when in transit from one country to the next. To fail to declare your gun is a serious, serious offense - I believe that in Bermuda it's 6 years in jail!

I've written quite a bit about this. On Watermelon's web site, see:

www.cruiser.co.za/hostmelon2.asp

General Bits and Pieces, the last entry is: Piracy

and our friend's reported pirate attack is at

www.cruiser.co.za/hostmelon39.asp

Note that he felt that having a gun would not have done them a bit of good. Others have expressed the same sentiment.

Final comment. When a stranger comes to your boat and you have a gun on board, you have to make a decision right away as to whether you are going to shoot this person. Hundreds of visitors to our boat in some very out of the way places, and not a one was anything but friendly and generous.

Fair winds,

Jeanne

152.163.252.229

YACHT WATERMELON

"We went cruising for a couple of years - after 16 years we're still 'cruising for a couple of years'"

http://www.cruiser.co.za/hostmelon.asp

Direct CHAT with JeanneP is available on her website.
__________________
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2004, 04:16 AM   #3
imported_admin
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Re: Armed vs. Unarmed

« Reply #2 on: Apr 15th, 2004, 08:20am »

Hi, This is a subject that deals with emotions rather than knowledge learned firsthand. The anti-gun person will remain anti and the pro-gun will remain pro. The same politician who lives in a safe country and has armed guards will happily tell the yachtie, who is going to a dangerous area not to have a gun to protect themself.

It comes down to how you feel and what your experience with guns is. A good book to read would be PIRATES ABOARD by Klaus Hympendahl.

Remember only a few yachts are actually attacked by pirates in any one year, so do not be deterred from having a great sail. Happy Sailing.

202.67.64.155

Gone Troppo
__________________
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2004, 04:17 AM   #4
imported_admin
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

What's a dangerous place?

« Reply #3 on: Apr 15th, 2004, 5:32pm »

And why would anyone willingly go to such a place? One thing that frustrates me is the perception that the world outside of our own "comfort zone" is dangerous. There are, of course, "dangerous" places, but for the mot part, it's not that hard to avoid them. As much as we wanted to visit the Philippines two years ago, we would have been leaving from Borneo, and there had been too many cases of kidnapping of foreigners by Philippine separatists for us to feel comfortable sailing through their area in order to reach a safer part of the Philippines. But had the weather been a bit more settled then, we probably would have gone anyway - I think we used the kidnapping/violence threat for the first time to opt out of difficult weather sailing.

I agree that the gun/no gun issue is full of emotion, little logic. However, I might point out that just about every reported case of a cruiser having and brandishing a gun has resulted in that cruiser being shot, either by another gun, OR THEIR OWN!

Enough. I know better than to get into these discussions, but the thought of a cruising yacht coming into a peaceful anchorage and brandishing a gun at every gentle villager who comes by makes me shudder. And if you don't have the gun in your hand when those people come by, you're not going to get the chance to use it.

64.12.116.199

YACHT WATERMELON

"We went cruising for a couple of years - after 16 years we're still 'cruising for a couple of years'"

http://www.cruiser.co.za/hostmelon.asp

Direct CHAT with JeanneP is available on her website.
__________________
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2004, 04:19 AM   #5
imported_admin
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Re: Armed vs. Unarmed

« Reply #4 on: Apr 16th, 2004, 3:08pm »

.....a delicate and MUCH discussed subject......my solution is a 12 ga. flare pistol ......legal (required) on all crusin' boats.....mostly for my own peace of mind........a shot into the air (not at the intruder, although I would imagine that being hit at close range with a flare pistol would be very disconcerting) would alert EVERYONE for miles around that there's trouble in paradise and would also alert the intruder that someone is now on the way to your boat and he had better get his butt outta there ..........that's my story, Bob

199.183.231.81

choupiquebob
__________________
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2004, 04:21 AM   #6
imported_admin
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Re: Armed vs. Unarmed

« Reply #5 on: Apr 16th, 2004, 3:42pm »

I agree with "Bob". A 12 ga flare pistol, you keep it near the helm right out in plain sight right!!, where it is handy, you do know how to use it don't you and how to reload it quickly, ( ok where are the spares??) is probably a most efficient "weapon" if you need one. Just make up your mind before hand that if you shoot someone with it , you will more than likely kill that person.

66.41.168.216

Don
__________________
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2004, 04:22 AM   #7
imported_admin
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

More thoughts

« Reply #6 on: Apr 16th, 2004, 5:18pm »

I am, at heart, a city girl. My working life was spent in Boston, and I refused to be a prisoner of fear. I learned very, very quickly that the louder you were, the more noise you made, the more attention you got and the faster a ne'er-do-well ran away. I once chased five young kids mugging a woman by running down the street screaming my lungs out! They ran, fast! In total, I think I used this tactic about three times while living in Boston, and was never successfully mugged.

The point. When we were concerned about boarders and possible problems, we installed an alarm system - actually, it was a car alarm, made lots and lot of noise. It was activated by a pressure pad if someone should step into the cockpit. It also could be activated by a panic button. Although it was never set off except by us when we tested it occasionally, it fit in with out philosophy of "passive" resistance. Thieves in general want as little attention paid to them as possible.

Another strategy.

Fair winds,

205.188.116.199

YACHT WATERMELON

"We went cruising for a couple of years - after 16 years we're still 'cruising for a couple of years'"

http://www.cruiser.co.za/hostmelon.asp

Direct CHAT with JeanneP is available on her website.
__________________
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2004, 04:23 AM   #8
imported_admin
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Re: Armed vs. Unarmed

« Reply #7 on: Jun 3rd, 2004, 11:13pm »

I carry aboard a Visor 9mm Pistol. As my father tells me: He'd rather see me in jail for a weapons offence than dead because I couldn't defend myself. I do declare my weapon and it is not always taken, in fact, you'd be surprised how often they just don't ask.

Robin Scott Johnson

Skipper of Hard Knots

on Apr 5th, 2004, 03:19am, sailorgirl wrote:I'm wondering about having a gun or guns aboard-for protection. I've heard argumants both pro and con. But it seems that I've met more and more people who prefer not to have guns aboard. Anyone here have views about it?

Fair Winds,

SG

68.108.204.142

Skipper

Hard Knots

Tempe, Arizona

1972 Newport 20
__________________
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2004, 04:24 AM   #9
imported_admin
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Re: Armed vs. Unarmed

« Reply #8 on: Jun 26th, 2004, 10:02pm »

I have to get involved in this one. There is an analysis where it was found that of 10 cases where people had arms on board one in fact got shot (peter blake) in 7 cases it was enough to brandish a gun and in two cases warning shots were fired.

The unarmed ones cannot tell their story.

What is a dangerous place? St.Helena should not be - right??

well about 2 years ago the governor of st.helena sent warnings to the south africa yachting press that at least one yacht, possibly two were thought lost by the actions of pirates. This came to light as a further (unseccessful) attempt was made by a (assumed) Korean fishing vessel on a convoy of two yachts.

The fishing vessel tried to run the yacht down and carried no nav lights and had no other lights on. As such it was a clear case of attempted murder.

There are many countries that are not very worried about firearms, provided you can prove that the weapon is licensed in your country of origin.

For instance South Africa will give you a temporary import permit for up to 180 dyas that even allows you to carry the weapon concealed loaded and ready for self defense.

Angola has no firearms law at present and you may do as you like.

As far as waving a gun at every harmless villager, that is total nonsense. Part of proper self-defense training is reading body language. We could spot "hostiles" in a crowd of 7000 people by simple observation, I have trained body guards and tribal chiefs, been a specialist and have amongs other things published the book SMALL ARMS, SHOOTING AND BALLISTICS, 512 pages of it with 400 photos and 200 drawings and graphs.

To have weapon is meaningless if you dont have the training, just like any other tools without the skill to use it. I have studies the case of peter blake, and I am sure, that I would not have been killed. He had no skill with the weapon, he had no plan to use it either. Just like a simple fire extinguisher is almost useless in the hands of an untrained person. You can judge the latter only when you done a firefighting course, so it is with weapons.

winfried

196.20.31.121
__________________
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2004, 04:25 AM   #10
imported_admin
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Re: Armed vs. Unarmed

« Reply #9 on: Jun 27th, 2004, 12:07am »

I agree, but I do live in Arizona where we're allowed to carry openly. I don't fault people who don't want to carry, but they don't seem to realize it's people like me who protect them. Most police who have found that I am armed simply run a check to make sure it's not been reported stolen, as we're not required to register firearms or have a license, although I had a pistol confiscated in Montana several years ago which mysteriously disapeared while in the Yellowstone County Sheriff Department's custody. Some people have been conditioned their whole lives to fear firearms, which is ashame because to you and I, a gun is just a tool. Like any tool it can be used properly, and it can be misused. Responsible people use them properly, and don't have any problems. We've seen those who have a "no guns" stance and it's like a religion to them. They feel as passionately about it as somepeople do about the abortion issue. I'm one who feels that people have a right to their opinion, but many who are on the exteme totalitarian side(UN angle that nobody should be armed) also seem to feel that people should be vilified for presenting the argument that responsible and good people can carry arms. I don't mean to critique your e-mail, but if you're going to give a stat, try and putting the source in there. It'll help your argument.

-Robin

« Last Edit: Jun 27th, 2004, 12:22am by robinsvoyage » 68.108.204.142

Skipper

Hard Knots

Tempe, Arizona

1972 Newport 20
__________________
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2004, 04:26 AM   #11
imported_admin
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Re: Armed vs. Unarmed

« Reply #10 on: Jun 27th, 2004, 3:00pm »

Hi Robin,

The site is yachtpiracy.org run by a german whos name is mentioned by another post above in connection with a book the man has written on piracy.

I have lived with weapons best part of my life and could adopt a friendly attitude in dangerous situations, knowing the I can draw and fire and hit a close up target instictively under one second.

I have been in hell holes at times, where nothing but my confidence kept me safe. It was often a matter "if this guy is here alone he must be a lunatic or very dangerous" and I was left alone. I came to the conclusion, as a dog can smell somebodies fear and bites, our actions and body language to an extend invites or or repells and attack as well.

With one exception, I can say, the smaller the village, the friendlier and more decent the inhabitants are. Anyway, I will be armed one way or another, gun or blowpipe, dagger or crossbow, softpoint or poisoned arrow, fireextinguisher or club.

I do not touch alcohol or drugs, and never start aggression, but I will not be come an underdog to crime either.

Ther comes something to my mind. I suppose you know the hiscocks. They went again to the chagos archipelo where south african cruisers go for a year usually. British territory - uninhabitet. Then on their last visits, one south african bully, declared himself king of the islands and decided who moores where and made everybodies life total misery. Everybody cowed down to him. I would have sorted him out.

Also, today, so many people are afraid to stop and help another man in trouble. I have awlways and will aways stop and see if I can help. At the same time, I will not walk blindly into a trap and I will be armed. I suppose without being armed, I would not stop either. Ever stopped a rape case in progress? I have.

regards winfried

196.20.31.121
__________________
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2004, 04:27 AM   #12
imported_admin
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Re: Armed vs. Unarmed

« Reply #11 on: Jul 6th, 2004, 1:23pm »

It isn't about carrying a weapon - it's about being ready, willing and able to use one.

Unless your weapon is ready at immediate notice, it's useless. Unless you have the mindset to kill without hesitation once you have made the decision to use the weapon, it's useless. Unless you have the skill to use the weapon effectively, it's useless.

In all three cases, not only is it useless, it's also dangerous. You will have escalated the conflict and it is incredibly diificult to de-escalate once guns come out.

Whichever you decide, and there are many good arguments on both sides of the debate, make a plan that includes good judgement and risk-awareness. Once you've made a plan, use it or lose it!

My preference is for carrying a weapon - if you're not sure why, read http://www.bigeye.com/donotgo.htm

213.209.160.37

sa1835
__________________
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2004, 04:29 AM   #13
imported_admin
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Re: Armed vs. Unarmed

« Reply #12 on: Jul 7th, 2004, 01:36am »

I would never pull out my gun unless I knew I had to use it, but I do know immediatly when it is necessary, and so do most responsible gun owners. With terrorists targeting Americans and Britons it is even more imparative that we are not defenceless. Why do you think Saudi Arabia just began allowing Americans to carry guns with a permit there last week when they were forbidden before

-Robin

quote author=sa1838 link=board=Forum&num=1081127980&start=11#0 date=1089113037]It isn't about carrying a weapon - it's about being ready, willing and able to use one.

Unless your weapon is ready at immediate notice, it's useless. Unless you have the mindset to kill without hesitation once you have made the decision to use the weapon, it's useless. Unless you have the skill to use the weapon effectively, it's useless.

In all three cases, not only is it useless, it's also dangerous. You will have escalated the conflict and it is incredibly diificult to de-escalate once guns come out.

Whichever you decide, and there are many good arguments on both sides of the debate, make a plan that includes good judgement and risk-awareness. Once you've made a plan, use it or lose it!

My preference is for carrying a weapon - if you're not sure why, read http://www.bigeye.com/donotgo.htm [/quote]

68.108.204.142

Skipper

Hard Knots

Tempe, Arizona

1972 Newport 20
__________________
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2004, 04:30 AM   #14
imported_admin
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Re: Armed vs. Unarmed

« Reply #13 on: Jul 7th, 2004, 10:37am »

Greetings from Saudi Arabia.

on Jul 7th, 2004, 01:36am, robinsvoyage wrote:Why do you think Saudi Arabia just began allowing Americans to carry guns with a permit there last week when they were forbidden before

Not quite true I'm afraid. All though it was widely publicised the way you present it, in essence the reality, as reported at http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1§ion=0&arti...d=25&m=6&y=2004, is somewhat different:

Quote:“In principle a Saudi has the right to carry a weapon, if he has a permit. Likewise a foreign resident, if he felt in danger, could get a permit to carry a weapon. By weapons I mean a personal weapon which a person can have in his own country,” Prince Naif said

You have to get a permit and so far there are no regulations in place to deal with the mechanics of that. When there are, it ain't going to be easy. It will be a long while before the xpats are tooled up!

213.209.160.37

sa1838
__________________
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2004, 04:31 AM   #15
imported_admin
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Re: Armed vs. Unarmed

« Reply #14 on: Jul 8th, 2004, 06:06am »

It's still a step in the right direction...

But you're right. thanks for the correction.

68.108.204.142

Skipper

Hard Knots

Tempe, Arizona

1972 Newport 20
__________________
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2004, 02:51 AM   #16
Dick Giddings
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Frankly, unless you have lived with firearms, and are highly experienced with handling the weapons of your choice, I would leave them behind when I go cruising. All the reasons given above for NOT having a weapon aboard are good. A firearm in the hands of an untrained, inexperienced user is an instant invitation to your own funeral. I've read all the statistics...."for" and "against", and I carry a firearm on my person, or handy to reach, wherever I go. But NOT while cruising the seven seas. To "legally" possess, that firearm in many countries means you will have it securely under "lock and key", with ammo stored separately and securely. Useless to you in a panic. Other places will confiscate the firearm until you "clear out", and, as mentioned above, MAY have lost track of the weapon by the time you return for it! Again, useless to you in a panic. As pointed out earlier, illegal possession of a firearm could seriously shorten your cruising experience, while adding a prison stay in interesting new surroundings to your resume!

Another thought on the flaregun issue. It won't kill anybody; but it will surely piss them off.... I rather like the idea of shooting it into the air, as it's meant to be used...calling attention to an emergency... By all means keep the flaregun handy, and cartridges handy (and dry) near at hand while cruising. Don't try to shoot anybody with it!
__________________
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2005, 07:09 PM   #17
Gord May
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Firearms Regulations by Country: http://cruisersforum.com/showthread....&threadid=1641

The above reference post provides a listing of firearms regulations for over 30 popular cruising destinations, and a few links to reference sites (facts - not opinions).

Over they years I’ve participated in, and listened to, many interesting and spirited (often “heated”) debates on the advisability of carrying firearms aboard a cruising vessel. Aside from anchoring, nothing seems to generate more passion than this important subject. I’ve tried to keep my opinions and biases to myself, and merely provided some of the background information (regulations) that may help to refine your thinking on the subject.

FWIW,

Gord May
__________________
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2005, 12:12 AM   #18
Commander
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 156
Send a message via Yahoo to Robinsvoyage
Default

Thanks Gord,

I don't think I've seen a post as helpful as you made over at CruisersForum. I pored over that article and looked at the links there, and found Noonsight especially interesting.

-Robin
__________________
Robinsvoyage is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2005, 03:34 PM   #19
rod hodgson
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Without really entering into the argument, we in Australia are fairly sensitive about the issue with one of our better known sailors, Christopher Packer (a former Sydney/Hobart winner) being imprisoned in Indonesia for not declaring firearms he had on board.

Initially, he was charged with gun running but when it became apparent that he had purchased the weapons for self protection he was sentenced to 3 months imprisonment (I think!!). My point is that if you do choose to carry them, make sure you obey the regulations of the country you are in.

Rod
__________________
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2005, 04:34 AM   #20
Ensign
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 24
Default

This is one subject on which sailors will be either for or against and will never agree upon. Robin and I have had an exchange which makes obvious our opposing views. I do see and appreciate the views of those who propose to and do carry guns are but those of us who advocate not doing this are unlikely to be convinced and vice versa.

I sincerely hope that those of you who do carry fire arms never have to use them in anger and those of us who don't never regret the fact that we haven't any overt means of protection.

It is a sad indictment on the world that we wish to peacefully travel through that this discussion has to take place at all but we have to be realistic and come to terms with the dangers. We can make cases for and against and cite incidences which support our points of view but in the end it is a personal choice.

Sail safely

David
__________________

__________________
David Shipton is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
med


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Boarding And Armed Robbery In Costa Rica Lighthouse General Cruising Forum 0 10-19-2010 05:44 PM
Armed at sea??? wolfgang General Cruising Forum 18 01-23-2007 12:36 PM

Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

RV & Travel Trailer Communities

Our RV & Travel Trailer sites encompasses virtually all types of Recreational Vehicles, from brand-specific to general RV communities.

» More about our RV Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


All times are GMT. The time now is 11:34 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.0
×