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Old 10-11-2011, 10:50 AM   #1
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Hi,

This is my first post to this forum and I want to start a discussion of Bernard Moitessier heritage as applied to today's world. I am reading his books and fascinated with the great character and the great sailor that he was:

http://en.wikipedia....nard_Moitessier

There are many interesting things to discuss regarding this man, his voyages and boats...

Yet I start with Bernard's unique 39 foot steel ketch Joshua that he sailed 1.5 times around the world in 1968. I hope somebody can help me understand her steering system. In his famous book "Long Way" Bernard several times describes how he steers the boat from inside:

p.50.

"I go on deck ... and quickly duck below again, soaked by a blast of spray. The aft cabin portholes are intact, a sight that warms my heart. I fill the sails again, steering with inside steering wheel..."

p.51.

"From time to time I stood up on the seat to take a few deep breaths and get a better feel of the conditions. During the quiet periods I went out in the cockpit, but without letting go of the hatch cover handle, ready to dive below"

...

"I went below to suck on a can of condensed milk and roll myself a cigarette. Then I regained my perch, again watching the sea through the closed turret"

So my questions:

1) How Joshua inside steering post and "turret" look like? It is not so obvious from 360 degree picture of Joshua:

http://www.360cities...pit-la-rochelle

2) According to pictures Joshua has a trunk cabin and does not have a pilot house. Yet Bernard could very well steer the boat from inside observing the seas from portholes only. How can this be sufficient for a good observation?

3) Any links to relatively modern cruising boats with similar inside steering?

I am very much interested in todays boats with similar seaworthiness and complete inside steering ability as pioneered by Bernard's Joshua. Would appreciate any pointers here.

Thanks!

Dmitri
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Old 10-12-2011, 01:58 AM   #2
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Welcome Dmitri,

Thanks very for your interesting introduction to one of the greatest sailors of our time.

I too could find no sign of steering in the forward saloon, the 360 showed clearly the forward part of the raised saloon - with its viewing circular storm port - but no steering below that.

Maybe the clue lies in his ""I go on deck ... and quickly duck below again, soaked by a blast of spray. The aft cabin portholes are intact, a sight that warms my heart. I fill the sails again, steering with inside steering wheel..."

If correct then the additional helm in the aft cabin could easily be connected to the helm in the steering station on deck.

Joshua001.jpg

The most common inside steering helms are those found in Pilot House designs. It is easier to connect the 2 systems when they are at a similar level.

Here are some images showing typical types :-

Pilothouse helm2.jpg

Pilot house steering1.jpg

Pilot House Steering3.jpg

Dmitri. here are two excellent You-Tube videos (part 1 & part 2) On Joshua and Bernard

Moitessier - narrated in French by Patrick Schnepp - Directeur, Musee Maritime de la Rochelle





Another YOU Tube is this one many parts filmed and narrated by Bernard :-



If you look again at the videos, other clues give different answers - Check

Hope your French is better than mine !!

Regards

Richard
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Old 10-12-2011, 06:52 AM   #3
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Dmitri





A friend of mine Nikos Vartzikos, alas no longer with us, owned a Joshua with which he crossed the Atlantic singlehanded. He also cruised the Black Sea and Greenland. I do remember the boat's interior and her steering system under the "bubble".





He wrote a book about his crossing but it is in Greek. I have the book at home but I am now on my boat. When I return at the end of the month I will look in the book and try to answer some of your insightful comments.





Regards fro the Aegean

Vasilis
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Old 10-12-2011, 12:19 PM   #4
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Thanks for your feedback!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MMNETSEA View Post

Maybe the clue lies in his ""I go on deck ... and quickly duck below again, soaked by a blast of spray. The aft cabin portholes are intact, a sight that warms my heart. I fill the sails again, steering with inside steering wheel..."

If correct then the additional helm in the aft cabin could easily be connected to the helm in the steering station on deck.
Agree. I also think that outside helm is directly connected to the inside one with a simple system of steel wires.

Thanks Richard, very clear and informative pictures!

Yes, it may make sense not only to examine the video but also address the questions about Bernard boats construction to Musee Maritime de la Rochelle in France. I am also looking for plans of Joshua and Tamata (the last of Bernard's boats) without any success so far. I think I can do this research as I speak some French (my grand grand father was a French poet In case I find something about Bernard's boats - I will post here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Istioploos View Post

A friend of mine Nikos Vartzikos, alas no longer with us, owned a Joshua with which he crossed the Atlantic singlehanded. He also cruised the Black Sea and Greenland. I do remember the boat's interior and her steering system under the "bubble".He wrote a book about his crossing but it is in Greek. I have the book at home but I am now on my boat. When I return at the end of the month I will look in the book and try to answer some of your insightful comments.
That would very interesting! I'll be waiting for what you will manage to find, thanks!

I am very interested in a modern boat construction which allows to stay on board for many weeks without landfall. Sometimes you simply need to talk to porpoises, you know I am not talking about high-tech Vendee Globe-kind-of-a-boat here. I am looking for a reliable, not super expensive, not very old (up to 15 years), a used cruiser boat that :

1) Has enough living space and a capacity to carry enough supplies including spare parts, etc. to go for weeks and months without a landfall for a crew of 1-2 (and a dog!

2) Will not fall apart under the blows of huge breaking waves in case they happen on her path.

3) Has a split rig that allows shorten-handed crew easily reduce sails in no time and with minimum effort possible, such as ketch and cutter rigs do. Joshua was a steel ketch and in 99% of cases was caring all her sails trimmed to the current weather accordingly, thus ensuring optimal canvas size for all possible wind / wave combinations. This in turn provides for maximum speed possible which is very important for running away from strong gales and dangerous shores. To my mind, accomplishing the same with Bermudian sloop rig requires much more effort if at all possible in all cases.

4) Has a reliable windvane - absolutely necessary device for long-distance passages.

5) Also has an efficient steering system in a strong pilot house that won't be blown away by the same breaking waves or in capsize.

Where one can find such a boat today?

Dmitri
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Old 10-12-2011, 01:59 PM   #5
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Which boat (vendor) would Bernard Moitessier chose today for round the world trip?
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Old 10-13-2011, 02:09 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dokondr View Post

Which boat (vendor) would Bernard Moitessier chose today for round the world trip?
I believe he would move to the next genration of Josua's - Retaining Steel, Ketch,centre cockpit, Off-shore proven, more space aft, Away from the "Colin Archer Double End Design"

Here is an example of one I have sailed many miles in -

A boat designed and built in the Nederlands - probably the country with the best Steel boat pedigree.

Anti Fouled 5S.jpg

Back in the water a few days ago

Back in the water3.jpg
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Old 10-13-2011, 12:10 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MMNETSEA View Post

I believe he would move to the next genration of Josua's - Retaining Steel, Ketch,centre cockpit, Off-shore proven, more space aft, Away from the "Colin Archer Double End Design"

Here is an example of one I have sailed many miles in -A boat designed and built in the Nederlands - probably the country with the best Steel boat pedigree.
Thanks! "Big Smile" takes my breath away - a beautiful boat!

Bernard Moitessier in his "Sea Wagabond's World" gives pictures of both Joshua and Tamata boats and comments on them. Tamata is his last boat - steel 33' cutter . I don't have the exact quote nearby, yet Bernard writes that in 1988 (20 years after his famous circumnavigation) he would prefer Tamata to Joshua, as more easily maintainable and quite sufficient for his circumnavigation needs. Tamata was not as fast sailor as Joshua, he writes, but still a good one.

For me too, Joshua and Big Smile are somewhat big - I need to be able to sail single-handed quite often. I decided to stay in 34 - 36 feet range - enough for 2 and manageable by 1 as well. Also ketch rig - though great split rig to adjust sails quickly and with reasonable amount of effort - yet does not allow to go close to the wind, when beating up. Cutter, both Bermudian and Gaff is a little better in this respect, according to what they write in books. I never sailed nor Ketch nor Cutter rigs, only Bermudian Sloop on various boats up to 43' and small catamarans.

It would be great if somebody could give me more insight on using ketch and cutter rigs on boats up to 36 feet:

1) Does it make sense to use a ketch rig on small boats like that (34 - 36')?

2) Upwind performance, is it really that bad?

3) How really hard is it to use these rigs for a single-handler compared to Bermudian Sloop? Bernard sailed Joshua ketch as natural as one breathe, yet he was an exceptional sailor. I have a great urge to learn both ketch and cutter rigs and not to be afraid to miss the right moment to take a riff on the main of Bermudian sloop any more!

4) Where to look for 'modern' boats with these rigs in 34 - 36' size, as strong as Bernard's Joshua ?

5) As an option, I am thinking about finding a builder for:

Doudley Dix, Hout Bay 33

http://www.dixdesign.com/hb33.htm

Yet I have the following main doubts about this project:

I) No pilot house - no inside steering

II) "Construction is frameless, using longitudinal stringers to support the 3mm hull and deck plating. The stringers are in turn supported by welded on tabs bolted to 13mm plywood bulkheads and semi-bulkheads." --- Not sure that bolting to plywood makes a _strong_ joint.

Any ideas about Hout Bay 33?

Thanks!

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Old 10-13-2011, 08:20 PM   #8
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Dmitri,

here's a link to a listing of boat builders

http://www.boat-links.com/linklists/...nk-04.html#top

Also Google "Brent Swain steel boat designer"

Not fond of Dudley Dix's designs - not for real weather.Here is a builder of Dix's steel boats :-CLICK

If you have time search for steel and aluminium boats in the Nederlands

they build for the North sea

richard

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Old 10-13-2011, 09:11 PM   #9
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Richard, thanks for your help!
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Old 10-14-2011, 03:19 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dokondr View Post

- I need to be able to sail single-handed quite often. I decided to stay in 34 - 36 feet range - enough for 2 and manageable by 1 as well. Also ketch rig - though great split rig to adjust sails quickly and with reasonable amount of effort - yet does not allow to go close to the wind, when beating up. Cutter, both Bermudian and Gaff is a little better in this respect, according to what they write in books. I never sailed nor Ketch nor Cutter rigs, only Bermudian Sloop on various boats up to 43' and small catamarans.

It would be great if somebody could give me more insight on using ketch and cutter rigs on boats up to 36 feet:

Depends where the skipper wants to go, if specifically into the high latitudes - then the ability to downsize quickly is a good reason.

1) Does it make sense to use a ketch rig on small boats like that (34 - 36')?

only if the plan is to sail in the southern ocean.

2) Upwind performance, is it really that bad? Not at all, it does take a little more trimming, and when the ketch also has an inner foresail, the extra drive can assist in powering the main.

3) How really hard is it to use these rigs for a single-handler compared to Bermudian Sloop? Not at all difficult if one goes out for a few times with an experienced sailor, and then practices and practices.

Bernard sailed Joshua ketch as natural as one breathe, yet he was an exceptional sailor. I have a great urge to learn both ketch and cutter rigs and not to be afraid to miss the right moment to take a riff on the main of Bermudian sloop any more!

Thanks!
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Old 10-14-2011, 09:13 AM   #11
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How about ketch mizzen shadowing the main when reaching or running?
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Old 10-15-2011, 12:31 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dokondr View Post

How about ketch mizzen shadowing the main when reaching or running?
Dimtri

Generally the mizzen is powering in a broad reach without affecting the main. Once the wind comes from aft of say between 100° <> 260° then it becomes a factor. When running downwind with the wind coming from a consistent direction - then depending on how the foresail/s and main are set up, the mizzen can be dropped or used as part of the sail configuration.

As always there other factors, such as the distance between the main's leech and the mizzen -- this depends on the boat design and sail plan.

I have seen many ketches where the mizzen is seldom used - its boom concealed by an awning. The mizzen can also carry a small riding sail, which is used when at anchor or on a mooring, to prevent the ketch 'hunting'.

Richard
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Old 10-15-2011, 02:30 PM   #13
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To summarize:

- What rig do you think is the most efficient and safe for a 34 - 36' boat in south oceans?

Thanks!
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Old 10-18-2011, 02:27 PM   #14
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Please advise good books on sailing ketch:

- how best to use ketch rig under different conditions

- long passage accounts

- history of ketch rig

Thanks!
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