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Old 01-27-2009, 11:44 PM   #29
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Wow...an anchor thread... I hope I'm not to late...some of my thoughts about the points raised.

Big ships.... I think anchoring in big ships is a totally different deal.... very much down to weight of the chain... cable stretched right out? Walk back until the catenary comes back...all chain out and still stretched bar tight?... ease the strain with the main engine. And yes they do use 'snubbers' of a sort. Cable compressors in front of the windlass take the load of the windlass.

I have used tandem anchoring on big ships..... drill ships... lying to an array of 8 anchors.. four up the front...four down the back... if an anchor won't set and keeps coming home just get e work boat to hang another anchor off the end and another and another until it does set or you run out of anchors. Note here that the 'pull' on that tandemised group of anchors is in the one constant direction.

Small boats. I know a few in Chile who use tandem anchors...without exception their primary anchor and chain is undersized and so they tandem with another undersized anchor . Reports suggest that it works but don't forget that they are invariably lying to anchor(s) plus 2 or more shore lines and the wind blowing out of the anchorage over their stern.

If you lay out anchors in tandem and are free to swing then whenever the wind backs or veers you are back to lying to a single anchor.

My boat ( 39 foot, 8.5 tonnes dry) came from the builders with a 45 lb( say 20 kg) CQR and 70 metres of 8mm chain. I would dearly love to have more or heavier chain ( or both ) but no way will that fit in the chain locker so I live with what I have. My CQR served me well for many years but in the end not only was it physically worn out it was also giving me all sorts of grief... failing to set in Chile time after time in kelp and on rocky bottom. So I gave it the flick. I don't think there is such a thing as a perfect anchor for all conditions, CQRs are IMO a mud anchor, you would go broke trying to sell them in South Australia for example where hard sand bottoms see the Swarbrick and other fisherman types very popular.

Moving right along...decided to go with a Rocna having had good reports from boats in Chile with them. I went up a size to 25kg... 20 is what they suggest for a boat of WS's length and weight in normal use. Now that isn't to suggest that the anchor doesn't work, just that I can handle the extra weight and blade area so I would be a mug not to take it. Since fitting it and using it in some 50 anchorages it has set first time every time so seems to be a suitable anchor for my application.

I use a nylon snubber but don't see it as replacing catenary or such... it will absorb shock loadings and as far as I am concerned it is there to take these loadings off the windlass. Once again... chain stretched right out ? pay out more chain....run out of chain? Then I can attach 100 metres or so of nylon rode to the bitter end. That is also handy in deep anchorages. Cray boats working the west coast of Tasmania anchor out on the 100 fathom line using nothing more than pot line as a rode ....

Thats it..

Well not quite... edited to add..

To stop a boat sailing around her anchor etc you can always put a bit of sail up down the back... them as has a yawl can do it with the mizzen... failing that just hang something off your backstay or topping lift or wherever. One of the biggest culprits on boats that won't lay head to wind is the windage created by the furled jib.
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Old 01-28-2009, 01:19 PM   #30
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Not offering an opinion, but it seems someone is touting "new" anchoring technology, and then disclaiming linking anchors together... Rocna (new technology) has a hole in the shank cited in their literature for the purpose of attaching a second anchor!

Sorry, I just had to point this out.

I have recently purchased both an original Rocna and the Manson Supreme (an alledged copy) in identical weights and plan some tests this Spring to see if the financial difference in the Rocna is worth it. I am skeptical as to the "Rock Slot" in the Manson, but will test it also before offering an opinion. I use a riding sail off of the back stay to reduce my boats sailing at anchor.

We've been off in the Florida Keys for some time, missed you folks!

David and Brenda

s/v Friendship & s/v Ceilidh
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Old 01-28-2009, 01:48 PM   #31
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Good luck with the anchor tests!

Do let us know how things turn out.

There is no doubt about it but ground tackle is a much maligned and, perhaps, little understood part of sailing. Most of us would rather fork out for a new plotter than new anchor and cable (chain). It is a shame because your anchors are one of the most important safety features on board.

New technology in this field will hopefully imptove safety but I would not throw out the old just because some new piece of kit comes on the market accompanied by fanfares and claims that it will be the universal panacea to all anchoring maladies. The bottom line, until proven otherwise, is added weight gives added security.

Aye // Stephen
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Old 01-28-2009, 07:05 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildernesstech View Post
Not offering an opinion, but it seems someone is touting "new" anchoring technology, and then disclaiming linking anchors together... Rocna (new technology) has a hole in the shank cited in their literature for the purpose of attaching a second anchor!

Sorry, I just had to point this out.

David and Brenda

s/v Friendship & s/v Ceilidh
Not touting new technology at all...my CQR was well past its use by date.... the 'plough' was almost paperthin in places ... and it was creaking at its joint. I went for a newer type of anchor cos I knew the CQR was not doing its job for much of the time. Chose the Rocna as boats in my waters were using them with good results. Its my primary anchor, my secondary is a Swarbrick, my kedge is a danforth, I have a Fortress just in case I ever need to row out an anchor, and I have a 'never been used' Manson CQR knockoff under my bunk which I think I may sell.

Yes , my Rocna has two holes and yes one is for use if people choose to go tandem... I use the other one, not for an anchor buoy but for securing it on the stemhead.

Stephen has it pegged when he says weight is security .
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Old 01-28-2009, 07:49 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank View Post
Stephen has it pegged when he says weight is security .
This is very true. Past experience in 25 to 45 ft boats have shown both my husband and I that a weighty all-chain rode and a "bigger than you think you need" anchor will work wonders.

In our case, on the 54' 29 Ton boat we're presently rebuilding for cruising, all our anchors are huge--95 lb, 105 lb, 120 lb...of Danforth, CQR, and Fisherman style respectively. We've got more chain than anyone I know (600 ft continuous of 1/2" BB.

Now, thinking of "new, shiny anchors to have..." I'd absolutely love to get out there on this boat with a brand new Spade, myself. I've heard wonderful things about the Spade from someone who has a boat of almost identical LOA, LWL, Displacement, Beam to our boat...they have even the same engine and windlass we have Their boat is steel, ours is wood...but considering that it would be roughly $2,100 to get the SPADE I'd like...well that just isn't gonna happen for a while...especially when I know the combo of 105 lb CQR and 120 lb Fisherman have been keeping this boat safe for its previous owners for...well...decades Hey, about as long as those CQR's have been out there, as a matter of fact. The boat was originally built in 1931 and cruised extensively in the 30's, 50's, 60's, and 70's by various folks. We know that our 120 lb fisherman is the original one the boat sailed with way back then and she used the anchor in Maine, Labrador and higher latitudes as well as in the Caribbean and Pacific Northwest. A CQR showed up on the scene in the 1950's though its probably not the one we have now. Both these anchors have been re-galvanized and kept up nicely, btw.

Interestingly enough, the most recent anchor--a 95 lb Danforth anchor is pretty much all the most recent owner before us ever used here in Southern California. He did not use the CQR nor the fisherman.

Depending on where one goes, it is nice to have big anchors of all the variety that may be useful. Rather than just buying a new anchor that we hope will work better...knowing different ways of how and when to use the ground tackle that one already has is also a good thing for all of us.

Onto "little anchors" now....though I'm strong for a woman, I find it hard to haul around any anchor much over 50 lbs. I literally have to drag our anchors around when moving them--I can't lift them. Its a joke to say I can move that 120 lb fisherman. I push on it, I shove on it, I kick it...get a running start and drag, drag, drag it Whatever is on the bow roller will end up being what we use if my husband isn't able to assist in changing out the anchor when needed.

Regarding anchor size, right now, we'd be hard pressed to kedge given the combination of big anchors and little bitty RIB we've got . As such, I've been on the lookout for a 37 lb Fortress and/or an aluminum Spade in the mid-30 lb range. I can see myself and the RIB both! being able to "handle" this as a kedge anchor.
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Old 01-28-2009, 08:06 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by redbopeep View Post
all our anchors are huge--95 lb, 105 lb, 120 lb...of Danforth, CQR, and Fisherman style respectively. We've got more chain than anyone I know (600 ft continuous of 1/2" BB.
Cor!!!!! That's some serious kit!

I only know of 2 boats getting into serious trouble ( ie the incidents got on the Net and the boats ended up on the hard having major work done ) in Chile in my time. I have no idea what anchors they were using but would suggest that it was more a people problem than a gear problem...

You see all sorts of boats in the channels with all sorts of anchors and they all seem to work.... guess you just have to dance with the one you brung.
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Old 01-29-2009, 10:08 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Nausikaa View Post
The bottom line, until proven otherwise, is added weight gives added security.

Aye // Stephen
Again a very classical perceived wisdom

Except for a concrete block of mooring, holding is not related to WEIGHT, but to the surface area of the anchor, or to be more precise to the surface area of the flukes (blades).

This is clearly demonstrated by comparing the Danforth and the Fortress. For about the same anchor weight, the surface area of the Fortress is nearly three times the one of the Danforth, and the Fortress has a reputation of an high holding anchor...

Unfortunately, efficient fluke surface area is never given for the antic generation of anchors (Fisherman CQR...)

At least, it is interesting to compare the blade surface area of the new generation ones...

A 30 kg Spade has a surface area of 1400 sq cm

A 30 kg ROCNA has a surface area of 1590 sq cm

The Supreme is about the same surface area.

A 30 kg RAYA has a surface area of 2000 sq cm

To achieve the same surface area with a Fisherman anchor, you should at least use a 120 kg one!!!

Now it's a question of choice, if you like to have a lot of weight on the bow of your boat, the fisherman anchor would be a good choice.

If you want safety and to save both your back and money, go to the new gen ! For the same efficiency of a 30 kg Spade, you only need an 18 kg RAYA... much lighter and much cheaper!
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Old 01-29-2009, 10:14 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildernesstech View Post
Not offering an opinion, but it seems someone is touting "new" anchoring technology, and then disclaiming linking anchors together... Rocna (new technology) has a hole in the shank cited in their literature for the purpose of attaching a second anchor!

Sorry, I just had to point this out.

David and Brenda

s/v Friendship & s/v Ceilidh
Don't be sorry!

If you look at the RAYA Anchor, it has also a huge hole at the base of the shank for attaching either a trip line or a second anchor!

But this doesn't mean that "tandem set" technique is efficient!!!
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Old 01-29-2009, 07:00 PM   #37
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Again a very classical perceived wisdom
Are you honestly trying to tell me that two anchors of the same type hold equally well irrespective of weight?

Anchors are not just lumps of metal. There are better and worse anchor designs but even going for the best I would use the heaviest I could handle with chain.

Let's just have a look at a few examples of modern anchors:

FORTRESS

Fortress claim to be "The World's Best Anchor" (http://www.fortressanchors.com/)

They also claim to be certified by DNV but. lo and behold, their certificate expired last year (http://www.fortressanchors.com/dnv.html)

Their ABS certification also expired last year (http://www.fortressanchors.com/image...ingAss_big.jpg)

One would think the makers of "The World's Best Anchors) would have up-to-date certification for their product.

RAYA

From your website, I note that the claim is made that your anchor, the RAYA, has been tested in "independent tests carried out by the specialised nautical reviews" (http://www.ancoralatina.com/acolhime...sts/tests.html) although no reference is made to which tests nor to which body carried out the tests.

There is no indication of any classification society having tested the anchor.

I am not claiming the RAYA to be an inferior anchor. I would just like more than anecdotal evidence before changing my opinion.

DANFORTH

Danforth claim to be "The World's Most Trusted Anchor". OK, it is not the best as we all know by now that Fortress is the best but it is the "most trusted". I find that strange. I would rather put my trust in the best - but there again, that is just my own conviction.

Danforth offer a free lifetime warranty. Of course, your life may be short if blown onto a lee shore because the anchor did not hold. Oh, wait a moment; they mean "warranted to be free from manufacturing and material defects for the life of the product". (http://www.danforthanchors.com/dpdf/546.pdf). Well, if the product has failed due to material defect then it could be said that its lifetime had ended.

I was a bit flippant there because I know Danforth to be a serious company but they do not claim on their website to have been certified by a classification society. It is highly likely that they have been though as their products have been used on commercial applications.

BRUCE

Bruce anchors are no longer produced for the "leisure market". Shame. They were a little difficult to stow but worked well.

ROCNA

According to Rocna anchors, their anchors outperform even the Fortress (http://www.rocna.com/main.php?sectio...testing&page=0 ) but wait a minute, wasn't the Fortress the best on the world? Am I the only once confused here?

Rocna anchors have been the subject of many tests in boating magasines but I found no information on their website of official approval by a classification society.

CQR

Ah, the much maligned CQR. We could start another thread just asking what CQR means - there seem to be many variations of the meaning of the acronym but that will have to be kept for later.

The CQR is, wait for it, approved by LLoyds Register of Shipping as a High Holding Power anchor! Wow. Only the second anchor so far to have been approved by a recognised institution. (http://en.lewmar.com/products/index....g=1&page_id=12)

CLAW

The humble claw anchor (a copy of the Bruce) does not seem to have very much going for it. I found no certification or other tests but its brother the Bruce is used to hold oil rigs in place when winter storms lash the North and Norwegian Seas. One would think it could stop a small yacht from running away during the night when all are safely (?) tucked up below.

What are we left with? AH yes, the SPADE

Nice little anchor this. You can get it in polished stainless steel. That should help its holding powers, impress demersal living organisms and you could always use it as a mirror when you need to shave three weeks growth of beard off after having crossed the "pond".

On a more serious note, even the SPADE seems to lack official approval. The manufacturers however tell us that the anchor launched "a new era in anchoring technology" and that the SPADE is "the World's most reliable anchor" ( http://www.spade-anchor.co.uk/index.htm )

Now my confusion is almost boundless. The world's most reliable anchor is, apparently, not the world's best anchor and that is not the best performing anchor but non of the previous were the world's most trusted anchor. But there is no clarity in sight as another contender enters the ring. In the blue corner from New Zealand we have.......

THE MANSON SUPREME

Delving into the depths of the Manson website we find that this anchor has LLoyds approval and is "the very first anchor internationally to receive Super High Holding Power approval for pleasure boat anchors". ( http://www.manson-marine.co.nz/SitePages/SupLloyds.htm ) Now that must be good news! But wait a minute, didn't the Fortress have the same classification although from a Norwegian rather than British classification society? Yes it did so the SUPREME is not the first to achieve this status. It may well have been the first to reach that status with LLoyds but it wasn't the first in the world.

THE JUNGLE

Got you there - the JUNGLE is not an anchor. Did you think it was? No, the jungle is the place where anchor manufacturers are trying to sell their wares, each claiming to be the best, most reliable, shiniest or whatever superlative you can think of. Is it any wonder that the honest and simple sailor is confused? What we need is not a trained sales pitch. We need hard facts, independently corroborated. We need to know which anchor is best in different conditions.

I have enjoyed this little sojourn into the depths (pun fully intended) of the anchor world but I can not say that I am very much the wiser after it. This is due to the conflicting claims made by anchor manufacturers. It also means that I am treating every claim about the RAYA as sceptically as those made by the other manufacturers -although I have to admit, a certification from LLoyds, ABS or DNV goes a long way to calming my nerves and probably those of my insurers as well.

Aye // Stephen
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Old 01-29-2009, 07:57 PM   #38
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Old 01-29-2009, 10:53 PM   #39
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What are we left with? AH yes, the SPADE

Nice little anchor this. You can get it in polished stainless steel. That should help its holding powers, impress demersal living organisms and you could always use it as a mirror when you need to shave three weeks growth of beard off after having crossed the "pond".

Aye // Stephen
Oh, thank you Stephen...you've given me every reason now to have a little Spade as my kedge anchor--I can look into its shiny surface to make sure I look good while kedging!
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Old 01-30-2009, 02:19 AM   #40
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Don't be sorry!

If you look at the RAYA Anchor, it has also a huge hole at the base of the shank for attaching either a trip line or a second anchor!

But this doesn't mean that "tandem set" technique is efficient!!!
Hi,

Surely you would not connect a second anchor to the base of the first anchors shank(trip line hole). This leads to the first anchor rolling when the boat swings, and may interfere with it resetting. Much better to connect the second anchor to the rode about a metre in front of the first anchor.

Interesting posts and good reading.

Regards,

Stephen
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Old 01-31-2009, 03:38 PM   #41
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Intersesting how the original post (an enquiry from a singlehander about leaving a boat unattended at anchor ) ...

Hi all you're solo sailer's

i would like to know Wat different ways you are using when dropping anchor so you can go onshore for few day with piece of mind

Lynger1


... quickly turns into a general discussion of anchoring policies & techniques ...

As a fellow singlehander I was the first to post a reply ... here is an extract :

As a solo sailor (mostly) I am always aware that there is no foolproof guarantee of leaving a boat unmanned at anchor ... I was informed by the harbourmaster in Newport, RI, that it is illegal to leave an anchored vessel unmanned in that harbour ... other harbours & locations probably have similar local laws ... my boat is 28ft & I carry anchors designated for 35/40ft boats ... I only ever leave Tadpole unmanned at anchor if I absolutely have no other option & then I make the trip as short as possible, never if the weather looks changeable, never longer than a single tide direction & never without hooking 2 anchors off the bow & checking for hold including diving for a look if possible ...

Then we got the numerous posts regarding tandem anchoring ... When I referred to "hooking 2 anchors off the bow" I was not talking about tandem anchoring but dual anchoring ie 2 seperate anchors (inc chain & rode) deployed ... one off the port bow & one off the starboard bow at an approximate angle of 45deg ... I also repeat my (personal) criteria of diving to verify anchor set ... if for any reason I cant dive or am in any way in doubt of the set of both anchors then I will not leave the boat ... IMHO tandem anchoring is flawed insomuch that the whole ergonomic pull is directed up a single anchor rode & that in the event of one anchor losing hold (usually the one nearest to the boat lets go first) then the weight & mass of that anchor (now swinging loose) will simply add it's inertia to easily pull the outer anchor free ...



Then we got the usual all-chain versus chain & nylon rode arguments ... then the sticky problems of joining chain & from there into problems with the gypsy/windlass ....



My personal preferance is for chain & nylon rode ... neither do I have a windlass or gypsy but bring the nylon rode back to one of my sheet winches in the cockpit ... when the anchor is fully up & snug in the bow roller then the chain stops just short of the sheet winch ... all done without leaving the cockpit

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Old 01-31-2009, 04:51 PM   #42
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Thank you for bringing us back to the purpose of the original post. Just shows how easily discussion drifts.
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