Blue Water Insurance

[mico]

I'm sure this subject has come up before but I can't seem to find it in the archives.

We have full coastal insurance (200kn offshore) - which is not cheap.

Now we are looking at blue water insurance for 12 months and the figures currently being bandied about by the various companies are frightening.

This is even after giving specific destinations - i.e Brisbane - New Caledonia - Vanuatu - Louisaides - Cairns.

$7000 seems to be the starting point - this is on top of the $1000 coastal insurance

What do all you long term cruisers do about blue water insurance?

With our yacht owned outright - I'm of the mind that I'd rather invest in some decent safety and navigation gear and take our chances. If it comes to losing our vessel, I'm sure we'd have other things on our mind at the time.

Be interested to hearing your experiences and views

Fair winds

Mico

[MMNETSEA]

Mico

If one had statistics on losses and damages in "blue waters" for ,cruising sailing boats as opposed to boats that are damaged or lost in the southern ocean attempting yet another world record - these may produce a very different result - ie.. these may show that very few cruising yachts further from the coastline than 60nm are lost or damaged. Probably over 90% if insured, incur claims in marinas and other accidents on or very near the coast as a result of poor navigation or taking chances with mother nature.

Mico, it would be valuable to know what is defined as "coastal' and what this insurance covers in the event of damage and/or total loss.

Richard

[JeanneP]

When we insured our boat for blue water cruising, we paid about 2.5% of the insured value as an annual premium. *Our present coastal insurance is about 1% of insured value. *I have heard that yacht insurance in Australia is very difficult to obtain, and very expensive to boot. *I believe, however, that Pantaneius (spelling?) might be an option for you - have you investigated this?

$7,000 AUD sounds very high, but you don't say what the insured value is.

What you do need to be concerned about is liability insurance, and it's rather difficult to obtain that for boats without casualty insurance, but I'm told that it is possible. *If you own a house, you might be able to find an umbrella liability policy that will cover you. *It appears that more and more marinas require proof of liability insurance, and I've heard talk that some countries will ask for proof of liability insurance during checkin.

Insurance is not only insurance against loss, but insurance against crippling lawsuits when you are at fault for causing injury or damage. The more assets you have, the more you need insurance to protect them.

Good luck.

Jeanne

[zigzag]

[QUOTE=name='mico' date='Jan 7 2009, 06:41 PM' post='29146']

Hi Mico

I have also inquired about offshore insurance for the pacific islands off Au east coast. My current insurance company won't cover me for more than 200nM of the coast of Au. Club Marine was the only company who would cover for off shore to the islands but with conditions. I had to have their insurance for 3 consecutive years with no claims within this timeframe. And yes your $7000 quote sounds correct. I was quoted $8000 for a $350,000 policy.

ZigZag

[meyermm]

Pantaenius is the company based in Germany but I used New York office for all dealings from Mexico. I would not take the chance of going uninsured for the reasons already given. I am Aussie and the boat was crossing the Pacific. I can thoroughly recommend the company although I did not have to make a claim they were great to deal with and I have heard second hand that claims are dealt with quickly and fairly. Good luck

[svhoneybee]

This topic has been dead for a while, but I would like to re-visit it. We are insured with Nautilius for about $200,000. Covers everything in Australian waters out to about 200nm, provided you haven't cleared Customs to depart. Honey Bee is a 12 metre steel Van de Stadt cruising boat and there is generally just the 2 of us.

In the 70's and 80's we cruised offshore without insurance and had no problems, is getting harder to do. We cruised to New Caledonia in 2010 and Nautilius quoted us around $2000 to cover us for the 12 weeks we planned to be out of the country. We didn't bother, but the issue remains. All else aside, Honey Bee would make a serious hole in some of the toy boats around the place if someone makes a mistake and it would be good to have cover for that (I've just seen someone do just that in our marina in the last few days!).

So are there any good options for off-shore insurance that have come since the topic was last discussed?

[mico]

Pantaenius is the insurance company that many of the yachts in Kota Kinabalu use as none of the Australian insurers will provide cover for that area. It's not cheap but I hear that everyone seems happy with their service. One vessel received significant lightening damage last year and Pantaenius were pretty prompt to payout.

Nautalis has covered us for Vanuatu, New Caledonia and PNG but wont cover Malaysia so at present we only have marina coverage through Edward Williams in KK. Later in the year when we do the trip up to Kudat and get a haul out we'll get an out of water survey done on Australis and then go for full coverage.

I'm still reminded of a discussion we had with cruisers in New Cal - half had no cover whilst the others wouldn't cruise without it. It turned out that those who cruised without, had homes and other assets back on shore and the loss of their yacht, whilst distressing, would not wipe them out financially. Those that had full cover, by and large sailed with everything they owned and the loss of their vessel would have been devastating. We all have home insurance so this made a lot of sense.

Of course, you'll never know how good (or bad) your insurer is until you go to make a claim so until then, keep a good watch and reef early!

Fair winds,

Mico/Australis

[JeanneP]

I've seen lots of complaints about marine insurance problems when a claim is made. Though not a perfect help, you can get some information from the insurance rating service of A.M. Best - A.M. Best Company (I haven't figured out how to embed links using my new tablet computer - a steep learning curve for me).

[svhoneybee]

Has anyone had experience with Topsail? Topsail Insurance

The boat in our marina that was recently centrepunched by a 20 tonne steel yacht is insured with them. I'll be watching their experience with interest.

[Francis]

I have been using Fasnet Marine Insurance for the past 3 years and so far so good. Having said that I haven't put a claim through yet, should it happen I will know....
Fasnet is actually a UK based broker and the Insurance is Allianz Marine. The rates are very competitive but there are a number of exclusion area related to piracy. That does not stop the boat owner to visit theses areas and he will be fully covered for anything but piracy. As usual common sense prevail.

Fair winds,

[Spike_dawg]

In the USA I carry insurance as it is a requirement for all marina's. Same for places like NZ and OZ.

Offshore I go without insurance, as do most cruisers I know. If crew is on board I'll carry insurance to cover their medical and accident but the boat goes without. I've only met a very few cruisers, offshore, who have insurance.

[capta]

I really think it boils down to how much money you want to spend to bet against yourself.
I have found that the insurance companies couldn't give a damn how many licenses one holds or how much experience one has. They work on a system that gives no credit for living aboard or even the quality of construction of a vessel (a week after I moved aboard this boat in a marina, the boat next to me had a halyard go free in a blow, and had I not been living aboard, it would surely have wrapped around my mast and perhaps dismasted both boats).
We all have a great deal of our money and lives invested in our boats, but at what price (7 grand is a whole lot of cruising kitty) does security come? An insurance agent once remarked that the insurance was not to insure the vessel, but to pay for the lawyers after an incident.
Some insurance companies will sell insurance for a voyage or charter, without the necessity of paying for the rest of the year.

[svhoneybee]

Well, a brief update. I tried to discuss the whole off shore thing with Nautilius, but they seem very uninterested in even responding to emails.

I put in a request for a quote to the local Pantaenius agent (in Sydney) and got a prompt and positive response. So we are covered for Aus and NZ for about $2500. Remains to be seen what would happen if there is an incident, but at least these guys respond to emails and seem to understand what I am talking about.

[mico]

Well - that was an old post.

We have recently been informed by a few friends that Club Marine is offering Blue Water insurance. It certainly wasn't when we were hunting for it. Many yachts up with us in Borneo are with Pantaenius and, while not cheap, have been very pleased with the support they have been getting. I now understand that Pantaenius have opened an office in Perth and are doing Australian coastal insurance as well as blue water. On the other hand some friends have indicated the same as you Honeybee - Nautilus have been playing hard ball.

I get the impression that vessel insurance is a moving feast at the moment. We had our Alajuela cutter Mico insured for an agreed value of $140,000. When we sold it in January this year the new owner could only get coverage for what he paid for it. Perhaps this was because he had no real insurance history or ocean going sailing experience - I'm not sure. Four months later he asked me if I could help sell Mico again due to some family illnesses.

I was happy to oblige and reactivated our Mico website Home and had a buyer two days later. The new buyer who was even more inexperienced also told me that he could only get coverage for what he paid for the vessel. A fortnight later, after he had changed all the paperwork and registration, he called me to say that his better half suddenly realised that he had twisted her arm into buying the yacht and wanted a caravan and a puppy instead. Having owned and sailed Mico around the pacific for the last six years, he asked me if I could sell her once more on his behalf. I reactivated our website and had another buyer three days later

The next couple organised insurance just prior to the test sail and haul out and told me that they too could only get coverage for what they paid but that Club Marine said that they would re-negotiate an agreed value after 12 months if they made no claim - go figure. Unfortunately, while they loved Mico, I don't think they were able to make the adjustment from racing a small S80 1/4 tonner to sailing a 7 tonne deep full keel blue water cruiser. The evening after the test sail they returned the keys and I now await another buyer flying up from down south for a test sail next weekend.

How many people can say they have sold their yacht 4 times in one year!

A friend remarked that perhaps this is Mico's way of saying she doesn't want to leave us But seeing we have a 44' ketch in Borneo and I have just driven 3000km to pick up a Hartley 21' timber trailer sailer as a way of keeping our feet wet between visits to our ketch - if I bought Mico back the good lady would throttle me

Mind you, I sailed Mico back from town to the marina this morning and she sailed like a dream ......mmmmmmmmm

Fair winds,

Mico/Australis (and now Toot

[redbopeep]

Sounds like Mico is indeed the boomerang boat. We will hope that another sailor will come along and there will be a happy ending for Mico soon.

[svhoneybee]

Incidentally, Pantaenius also offered 3rd Party Only cover for a few hundred dollars. This also seems a bit hard to come by, but is a very attractive alternative if you are on a very tight budget (or have a lot of confidence). It would at least get you in and out of marinas and help if you managed to sail through someones expensive toy. Of course, until someone claims and reports on their experience, then it is all just an offering to the gods of chance.

[searanger50]

We are also with Pantanieus and find them very fair. They do not impose unreasonable restrictions on cruising and provide excellent customer service. Obviously the value of your boat makes a difference to the premium and you would expect it to increase if you wanted to cruise the Caribbean in the hurricane season but I have so far found them helpful and value for money. Always worth a question or two and a quote but I doubt you'll find better value for money.
Kevin & Sandy.