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Old 08-21-2006, 02:08 AM   #1
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Default C&C Hull Flex (Redline 41)

I am in the process of purchasing a 41' C&C Redline 1972. The sailboat is in excellent condtion. New Oversized rigging, new chainplates, all of the topsides harware was removed and reinstalled with brand new bolts. The sailboat looks beautiful all around but: I noticed that the bulkhead door wasn't aligning properly and was kind of stuck. I told the seller which is a friend of mine and he told me that the back stay was still at 2000#pounds of pressure and that the flexing caused the door to stick. He went to the hydraulic back stay and released the pressure and the door oppened. He also told me that because of this there was a hairline crack behind the keel and another in front. He says that it is normal and that its been like that forever. By the way the keel is fixed internal (covered like in a full keel) and the bolts look perfect from the inside.

Should I worry about this situation. The boat sails beautifully, fast and everything else seems to be in order.

Please Help....
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Old 08-21-2006, 09:22 AM   #2
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I think you need a good surveyor to evaluate the situation. This needs more information than a verbal description and an self-interested explanation by the seller. Let an unbiased expert make the call.
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Old 08-21-2006, 06:41 PM   #3
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I cannot think of any situation where cracks at either end of the keel could be described as normal. My initial reaction is to avoid the purchase but, if you have your heart set on the boat, do as Jeanne suggests and haul the boat out of the water to have it inspected by a qualified surveyor.
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Old 08-22-2006, 01:33 AM   #4
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"the keel is fixed internal" why would you have keel bolts then? Its actually externaly mounted led ballast with keelbolts. Take a look if any of te keelbolts were sistered? Evidence from inside the cabin that keel bolt was cut off hole patched and new bolt inserted next to it.

Anyway, the C&C smile is normal. But i would investigate if the crack goes all the way to the bilge. I.e. is there water weeping out? Get a surveyer to put a moisture meter to see if there's elevated moisture readings around the crack or bad core(delaminated or wet). When i bough my 38 the crack was all the way around. But it was normal. I did some work to eliminate the crack. Namely dig all the old fairing out, and wrapped the area in 6" fiberglass tape 24oz cross weaved (http://www.mertons.com/Reinforcement...le_stitch.html). The crack has not come back in the leading or trailing edge in two years of sailing. It came back on starboard side midway for about 2 feet, but that was due to negligence of letting the blge freeze one winter. I just dug out and repaired that crack and will make it a point to not let the bilge freeze.

The flexing from backstay is normal. Thats why you have the backstay adjuster so that you can release it after you drop sails. Don't warry about the door not closing when backstay is tentioned. Hydraulic adjuster is a nice feature to have to spill the main when you get overpowered going to wind. You can put a lot of rake on that mast. And it should have a lot of rake otherwise theres too much pumping which can lead to fatigue on the rigging terminals. My upper shrowds are at the rigger at the moment because pumping caused some fatigue on the upper mast tangs.

Another important thing is to get a wooden mallet and do some tapping on the balsa cored hull. You'll get good at recognising the hollow or delaminated areas. For instance I have dry but delaminated areas where the port side stand was pressing on the hull. the surveyer said its nothing that would stop me from ocean voyaging so I am not gonna swet over it, but its good to know that its there.

Whats the new oversize rigging? Dayform, -12 rod?

Petar
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Old 08-22-2006, 08:45 PM   #5
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The new rigging is Dyform. All the old original chainplates were replaced with new S/S ones. S/S support plates were added below deck on each one of them. All of the deck hardware was removed this last summer, and when I say all I mean all, winches, stanchions, bases, rails, everything except the mast. Everything was rebedded and epoxy injected as required. Ports were all replaced with new Lewmars. The brightwork and wood (teak) outside has all been varnished and looks very nice. The engine is a 1990 Volvo Penta 27hp with new heat exchanger, new alternator and impeller.

Sails are in their last days of service probably one more year. Most of the work left to be done is on the inside. The floor is basicly a fiberglass liner with removable wood panels. The panels need to be replaced. The cushions on the dinning area need to be replaced. The a/c is in working order, it was installed in 2002. The stove is propane and needs a good cleanup.

Even though most of the local marine contractors (including the one that has done the bottom of this boat for the last ten years) I have contacted agree that on a boat that age the hairline cracks are normal on the keel area. I contacted a reputable surveyor and will do a pre-purchase inspection of the hull etc.

By the way yes the keel is external.

Thanks for your valuable help.
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Old 08-26-2006, 02:41 AM   #6
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Survey day.

We hauled out the sailboat yesterday and the hull was NOT a pretty picture. There were about fourteen blisters on each side, each one about 2 inches in diameter. Very discouraging, at least for me. The surveyor wasn't surprised with the blisters and after inspecting the hull, inside and out concluded that there was no structural damage. He basicly says that the hull is very solid and by the way it is not BALSA cored which is a good thing I guess. Being such an early C&C it was not balsa cored. At least the hull.

What surprised him, and me, was the roughness of the hull's surface. As if older repairs had been done very poorly. Anyway two contractors showed up to take a look. Very interesting, the one that has done the bottom for the last ten years had the "fix the worst twenty blisters this year sand, repaint and use the boat" aproach for around $3,500.00. The other had the "remove all the paint all the way to the gel coat and start all over fixing the blisters and sealing and re-coating for $5,000.00" Of course the second one couldn't tell me the amount of blisters because he says that not all of them are visible.

I guess I will wait for a final report and recomendations from the surveyor. To make my final decision. Right now it seems like I will request a big discount on the price. I may even consider walking away from the deal.

Any comments????????
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Old 08-26-2006, 02:55 AM   #7
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By the way, the cracks in front and back of the keel where not serious at all. The surveyer said the were normal fairing cracks. Not to worry about them. Anyway I was not very pleased with the unevenness of the hull in general. We then went sailing at 20 knot winds and of course it was a great sailing day. Even the surveyor told me to wait until monday for his opinion because after such a great sail he was losing his objectivity. Anyway he will do a complete rigging and interior systems evaluation during the weekend.
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Old 08-30-2006, 11:13 PM   #8
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Well for those who keep reading this thread. After the survey was finished I requested a price adjustment due to the fact that upon haul out we discovered that the hull had close to forty blisters that ranged from 2 to 4 inches in diameter. Here the "thieves" charge about $50.00 per blister so figure $2,000.00 in blisters plus the rest of the bottom job. The total to redo the whole thing is around $5,500.00. Since I was aware that the boat needed to be hauled out and the bottom painted I only requested a price adjustment of $1,500.00.

The owner was not to happy and basicly told me that someone else was going to see the sailboat and that he would have an answer after that. Well I guess that if that person buys it without hauling it out for inspection he would get a surprise later on. At least I believe I have followed the correct steps during the process.
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Old 08-30-2006, 11:55 PM   #9
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Absolutely!
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Old 09-02-2006, 03:11 AM   #10
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Anthony, sorry it took me a while.

Blisters spell trouble. I still can't believe that the boat is not balsa cored. Did surveyer say this. Go in the bow chain locker and look at topsides from the inside, you'll see if there's core. Anyway, read this http://www.yachtsurvey.com/blisters.htm, and then reconsider if you still want to mess with the blistered boat. The fact that the bottom is uneven tells me that someone else had a failed attempt at fixing blisters and that this is recurring problem. So even you fix the 40 or so for 5.5k this does not guarantee that new ones will not occur. The only acceptible way would be to dry the hull out until the moisture levels are acceptible. There is guy next to me in the yard fixing his blisters on a nonsuch. Terrifying to see the amount of work and the size of holes that he dug out in his bottom. These are large areas the he's been filling with overlapping layers for months now. He ended up laying mat over entire bottom and then some heavy mat/roving near the external keel. Definately more that 5k worth of work.

So be cautious. Its nice that surveyer will do this kind of detailed analysis.

Petar
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Old 09-05-2006, 07:21 PM   #11
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I appreciate everyones' guidance here. What finally happened was that I offered $1,500.00 less than what we had agreed before hauling out and inspecting the hull. He told me that someone else was interested. The other buyer gave him the money he was asking without hauling out. I guess he will get the surprise later. Well anyway the seller was very straightforward and at least I think we ended up as new friends.

In the meantime I will keep looking for that sailboat thats so hard to find. Since I really liked the sailing manners and the design of the C&C Redline I am now looking for a Newport 41 which is basicly the same design since C&C sold it to Newport. It is also very beatiful and seaworthy. So if anyone knows of a good Newport 41 for sale please let me know.
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Old 09-05-2006, 07:23 PM   #12
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Ohh and by the way yes the hull of the C&C Redline 41 is solid glass. Only the topsides are balsa cored. Thats one of the reasons Iam interested in the Newport 41.
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