Can/will 'cruisers' Learn ?

[Silver Raven]

I hope we can & will learn from our 'ocean racing cousins'. I'm still trying to gather info from Dodge Morgan's sail - around the world. His sail was a BIG accomplishment & nothing can be taken away from that - nor would I want to - in any way.

Along similar lines of wanting to learn anything/everything we can to make our 'passages' safer - thus I hope we can learn a few 'positive' boat, gear, provisions & good sailing attitudes from our 'racing cousins' (oh - do wash my mouth out). This new - Velux 5 oceans - - 30,000 miles - 5 sections - - beginning - Oct. 17 - from La Rochelle - in 60' 'ECO' yachts - - capable of 30 kts. - - limiting fossil fuel consumption - encouraging wind & solar power - recycling waste - conserving food, water & power. This all sounds like what many in here have been doing for 10, 20, 30, 40 & more years but done on 'steroids', maybe. "same-be-same" - a bit to me but I'll learn from everyone I can. It can be said - - Knowledge - Enough is never Enough !! That's all a VERY BIG ask & I wish them lots of knowledge & to pass it on to all of us. The ECO 60's are the older 'Open 60's - prior to 2003 - now recycled (?) with an eye to be - 'affordable, ecological & exciting solution to long distance sustainable yachting' - - so their 'blurb' says. That's a bit of a 'iffy' statement. I live in hope that we can all learn for these boats & their events & will look on the 'positive side' although it all sounds a TAD fanciful - to me at this time. It's just that 'cruising yachting' as a whole has benefited from so many of the innovations & gear developed by 'racing yachts & crews' in the past - that I will continue to 'live-in-hope' that they can make some new discoveries that will benefit all of us. This series can be followed at www.velux5oceans.com if anyone is interested - other than myself. I need to learn - what to take - how much is weighs & I know that that list will be long (which is not a problem - except for the cost) but I don't want to 'need-it' in the middle of the nite blowing 'Force 8 or 9' on to a lee shore - to find that "MURPHY" left it in the store & it's not on-board or I didn't pay the 'IDIOT-TAX' & get the correct model, size, strength, length style, etc - etc. Now while I know that boat size - type, weight, windage, length & time of trips etc. has a bearing on all the above. I'm sure that there are general rules that can apply over a large range of yachts to be 'operated in safety' - such as those rules we all use for anchors (size, weight, type & # of), chain (size & length) rode (size & length & type) whether it's an ocean going - medium to long range - cruiser with 1, 2 or 3 hulls. Anyway - I'll be watching the - 'Velus5oceans' 5 sections adventure to see if I can learn anything that will no doubt save my little wet, cold butt one day in the future. I also hope I can find some informative things to learn from Dodge Morgans exploits. Ciao, james the down-under - 'geri-hat-trick' - Good sailing all - Every reality begins with a dream. Hoo-Roo, all.

[Silver Raven]

G'day cobbers all. Further to my "learning curve'. May I please ask - Gail & Steve - 'gone-troop' - Jeanne & Peter - 'jeanne P', Richard - MMNETSEA - "BRIGHT-EYE-#1 aka 'young-bobby' - 'hobbles' Chiroeurope - 'he of the BIG waves' (Force 8/9) - Stephen - 'Nausikaa' & any other experienced cruising people to let me know about your anchors. Oh & I'll have a comment from Size, weight, type, material? Also about 'rodes' - - split up into chain & rope. All the same questions, Please. I'm trying to buy the correct ones c/w total rode & need to establish what they will all weigh. I've been using the "SAIL 1997 - Sailboat Buyers Guide - as a starting point. However I've gone up 15 to 20% to establish a comfortable safety margin, I hope. I'm allowing for 2 bow & 1 stern anchoring system. I've also increased the chain length up to - 1.5 times the LOA and the rope(rode) up to 5.5 times the LOA.

Now I have to establish if all of you agree - then - check the total weight THEN allow for the safe storage (& not at the extreme ends of the SV or MV which must include - quick & safe deployment (without throwing my legs over-board in the process). Not carry 'to much weight but never get washed ashore due to insufficient anchor hold.

My next questions will revolve around - 'safety gear' - with all the above questions. Hopefully at the end of all this our moderators incl - 'BRIGHT-EYE-#1' will have a 'handbook' including most matters for all the 'newbie's' that ask all of these questions. Hoo-Roo, james

[Nausikaa]

Goodday James,

As I have said on many occasions in the past, it is a case of horses for courses. The ground tackle you need depends upon where you are going, i.e. what the holding ground is (mud, sand, shingle etc) and the deapth at which you will be anchoring as well as the prevailing weather and current or tide.

If you are sailing in Patagonia you should, if possible, take lines ashore as anchoring in that region is unreliable, to say the least. In other areas, with less wind, you should choose your anchor after the ground. Ideally,you should have several anchors to cope with differing conditions. A bottom of sand and mud would suit a Fortress or a Danforth very well. For a more rocky bottom you the ideal may be a traditional fisherman, although stowing it is a headache.

NAUSIKAA has three anchors, a CQR on a bow roller with about 50 metres of chain (this was on the boat when I bought her and, as I am a great believer in chain because of its strength and weight, suits me well although the CQR is not my favourite), a Fortress lightweight anchor and another (which also came with the boat) resembling an Admiralty Pattern anchor. I have never used the latter anchor and doubt its usefulness but it stays as a reserve.

Obviously, your choice of anchor(s) is important but what is just as important is your ability to anchor correctly, ensuring that your vessel is brought up with the right length of rode for the circumstances. What you do not neeed is the anchor lying on the bottom but not dug in and with a pile of chain on top of it. The other important issue is to maintain an anchor watch. By this I do not mean that there always has to be someone in the cockpit ensuring the vessel is not dragging but this may be necessary during periods of high winds or at the change of the tide (to check that the anchor digs in again after swinging). In general, a GPS with an anchor watch facility will suffice. This will sound an alarm, alerting you should the vessel shift her position.

Incidentally,I spent two nights at anchor last week when out on a 65 metre patrol boat. One was in Margate Roads and the other was spent in the lee of Dungeness - not a particularly sheltered anchorage but we spent a comfortable night there despite a high, gale driven sea running up the Channel. In both cases, we anchored with 5 shackles on deck without any dragging despite the gale and tide working in unison (at times).

Finally, have a look at the Rohcna anchor. It has received some good write-ups but I have no experience of it.

Aye // Stephen

[delatbabel]

I have a 60lb Bugel on 60m of chain, and a reserve 60lb CQR. Two bow rollers so if I know I'm heading off shore for a length of time I'll hook the CQR up on the second roller but to be honest I prefer to leave it empty for lines to a mooring as there are plenty of courtesy and other "spare" moorings around the harbour. At the stern is a 20lb Danforth on rope.

11.8m (40ft) boat, 14 tonnes loaded.

[MMNETSEA]

Hi James,

Stephen hits the nail dead center - anchors = 'horses for courses!'

Also: some boats behave differently irrespective of the ground or sea. The hull shape, the load she is carrying, the rigging , etc......

The final analysis must require the skipper to test the ground tackle again and again, until he/she is happy with the combination for that patch of water.

Richard

[Spike_dawg]

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...ults_Chart.svg

[Qldcruiser]

Hi all

After a number of bad experiences I now only have 3/8" chain 100m and a 40kg plough. It seems to hold well everywhere except in reedy environments. I carry two spares, a 25 kg cgr and a new one which I think will become my norm which is a 33kg Rocna anchor.

I,Annette will attest to, am the worlds biggest worrier when swinging on a pick so my combinations of anchors are now nearly bomb proof. I also carry a spare 60m of 3/8" chain just in case but it does add a fair slab of additional weight which Annette politely tells me comes off my weight quota.

Cheers

Rob & Annette

S/V Blue Lady

[Silver Raven]

G'day all & many thanks to Stephen, David (Del). Richard, 'Spike_Dawg', Rob & Annette. Thanks so much. I'm just starting to try (very) putting it all together. I've been trying to keep this - a little general - so that everyone that reads these posts can gain something useful from all this 'valuable information' Now let's start. 1/ Stephen - I think I got all of that & tnx. (You didn't mention that when you anchored last week in the 65 mtr Patrol boat that it was blowing - Force 8 to 9) Wow bloke ! ! - I don't want to be there. I'll stick to 'semi-sheltered' (by comparison) waters of Australia's north & north-east coast plus a bit of SE Asia & I'm sure I'll park-it - way, way - up the beach - if the wind gets that strong. Seas out here are no where near as bad as they are where you were. I blinken well hope !! Richard ? ? ? For those of you that mentioned just what you use & why - TNX. Here's the plan; I have a GBE cat - LOA 8.5 BOA 5.0 DWL 1077 Kg - Dry S/A 38 sq Mtr. Here's what it will be; A modified GBE - LOA 10.5 BOA 7.0 (c/w 9* canted hulls - giving BOA 7.75 DWL) 1750 kg - Dry S/A 55 sq Mtr. Hopefully that swill give me a cruising weight of no more that 2200 kg. max (ha ha - now you can all get your spare ropes & tie me up & throw me over) That said; weights estimated are; 3 people c/w gear = 270 kg ; 2 wks water @ 4l/d/p = 120 kg ; 2 wks food (allow) = 120 kg ; ANCHORS - 1 x Bruce (15 kg) + 1x Fortress (11 kg) + 1 x CQR (15 kg) ; all associated chain @ 40% 10 mm + 60% 8mm chain plus 250 mm x 10 mm nylon + incl shackles & binding = 210 kg ; Extra sails, gear & spares = 100 kg ; 20 hp - long-shaft o/b (46.5 kg) & tanks (1.5 kg ea x 3 + fuel (55 kg) = 102 kg. = 943 kg - - allow 15% (for IDIOT TAX - "Jeanne/Peter) then equals 1085 kg. That all brings me to 2200 kg 'wet-boat' weight. (You's can all start laughing NOW) PS. All alloy beams (curved) , mast (wing of 12.5 sq mtr) & poles will be replaced with 'epoxy/carbon' as will cockpit-cover & davits. What I haven't allowed for is - radio's, antenna, wires & batteries nor solar panels. Not sure what I should allow for these at this time. Maybe 80 to 90 kg ?? I'm now starting to agree with Gail & Steve - that I might be getting 'too-darn-heavy' for the buoyancy of the hulls. HOWEVER, thanks to everyone's help - I'm a lot closer to the answers than when I started. Again - Thanks everyone, ciao 'jj-geri-hat-trick' I owe y'all several 'sun-downers'

[MMNETSEA]

Originally Posted by Silver Raven

ANCHORS - 1 x Bruce (15 kg) + 1x Fortress (11 kg) + 1 x CQR (15 kg) ; all associated chain @ 40% 10 mm + 60% 8mm chain plus 250 mm x 10 mm nylon + incl shackles & binding = 210 kg ;

James

Don't forget the bridle on the bows and the big cleats on the aft duck board.

Richard

[Spike_dawg]

You could also give Craig Rocna an email (Kiwi). craig@rocna.co.nz

The Rocna anchor is simply the best thing. I had 2 delta's but dragged in mud, gave one up and purchased a Rocna. It sets EVERY time then has the highest holding power. I just love these anchors and sleep really good at night since I got one. This is JMO but I've got experience with it it various bottoms.

[GoneTroppo]

We have a 20kg Bugel on 60m of 8mm chain as our main. Second is a 16kg Bugel on 8m of 10mm chain and add rope as required. Third is a light weight stainless Maldivian grappel for the rocky spots. We like all chain as it is easier to use. The Lofrans winch is controlled from the helm by an AutoAnchor, best thing since sliced bread.

Have had ploughs and danforths, they worked well mostly but had too many setting failures for me, the Bugels set quickly and you know it!!! So if they do not set you know that as well.

There is a wide choice of anchors out there, hope the one you choose works well for you.

[Silver Raven]

Originally Posted by GoneTroppo

We have a 20kg Bugel on 60m of 8mm chain as our main. Second is a 16kg Bugel on 8m of 10mm chain and add rope as required. Third is a light weight stainless Maldivian grappel for the rocky spots. We like all chain as it is easier to use. The Lofrans winch is controlled from the helm by an AutoAnchor, best thing since sliced bread.

Have had ploughs and danforths, they worked well mostly but had too many setting failures for me, the Bugels set quickly and you know it!!! So if they do not set you know that as well.

There is a wide choice of anchors out there, hope the one you choose works well for you.

Hi there U-2 'wandering Aussies' also many thanks to you, Spike(woof), David(Del), Richard & Stephen. Sure is VALUABLE info I'm getting here, couldn't buy it for quids !! Really appreciate all the knowledge in-put - all of you. I'll look much more carefully into both 'Bugel' & 'Rocna' . Lots of people seem to be having good things to say & seem to be getting 'lots of sleep' using them. Thanks for that - I will look closely at changing 'Fortress' & 'CQR' for 'Bugel' & 'Rocna' & probably go one size up, which might be prudent. Thanks again - very much appreciated. Now all I need is for Jeane/Peter & Richard to let me know what kind they are using as the weights will be different. May well consider a 'fortress' as a rear (probably in the sand) anchor.

Gail & Steve - did you notice that they are having a 'Pirates conference' in the UK. Since you've - Been there - done that, I'd personally send you $50 bucks towards getting there to represent us 'cruising' folk - How about some others reading this - kicking the kitty - so we get some valuable representation at that meeting ??????????? I saw-it somewhere in the 'threads' I follow - in these forums. It was in Mid Oct. about the 17th as I recall. Hey 'Bright-eye-#1' - ooops Mr. - "Lighthouse' -Sir Bob - what you think - can we raise a grand of so ??? Sure would save some lives to be pro-active not loose more of our own !!

Richard I had overlooked the weight of both fore & aft 'bridals' - which are necessities for sure, c/w under-deck supports. On several yachts that I rebuild for the owners, I built both fore & aft SS under-deck pads (approx 3/16" x 1' sq) c/w rods (5/8" dia - from deck pad (under the large cleats) down to the bow(s) - welded to 150 mm long rods (5/8" dia) running up & down the bow (s) & then f/glassed them in. Had cause to test them out on a few yachts - the system (although possibly 'over-kill') seemed to have worked well (in one case - at anchor in Force 8-9 for 3 days - (Southern Tassi) Thanks for reminding me to put that at the top of the 'to-do list. I will no doubt attach the bridal cleats to the front & back beams which I will reinforce well to spread the load. The 'monos' I've cruised on were 1 & 2 ton 'cup' ex racers - mid 40'ers c/w deep draft (so a long way from shelter) - the 2 milti's were 52' & 58' older, slow heavy vessels c/w lots of windage, far to much draft & were a 'handle' to anchor at the best of times.

Stephen TNX. I forgot to mention that when I have set my anchors in the past - it is always put down a 'real' one & not a 'day' pick. I've pulled far to many yachts off the rocks because people forgot to change anchors when they decided to 'stay-over' especially after a few drinks, so don't EVER use a 'day-pick', I also reverse slowly to 'lay-out' the chain out in a straight line, then let the yacht sit a bit (to check the lay to wind & sea) then apply moderate pressure (increasingly) to make sure the anchor is 'bedded-in' to the max. And all that's done long before 'sun-downers' are even thought of. Only then - over-board to get some fish for dinner. I have tended to anchor rather earlier than most *** my caution says - 'Never west(east) before 0700 - nor east(west) after 1600' 'God doesn't make - sloping bomies or big rocks' but he does put them just under the water. Or is/was that 'Murphy'? I'm always 'messing around anchoring' long after everyone else is swimming or drinking. I might well end up with 4 anchors but still not go to Patagonia. This SE Asian cruising has my name written all over it for the rest of my days.

THANKS AGAIN to all of you !! Big time !! Would not have been able to make good decisions with out all of your help - for sure. Ciao maties, ''jj-geri-hat-trick'

[rebelheart]

60lb Manson Supreme with 275' 5/16 chain and 50' of three strand behind that just in case. I had a CQR that honestly worked fine for me but my friend needed to borrow it. I had a Bruce on a lighter displacement boat and that also worked pretty well.

[JeanneP]

Originally Posted by Spike_dawg

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...ults_Chart.svg

When I research gear, statistics, warnings about computer viruses, etc., I look to the source of the information and their motivation for providing it. The test results above were composed by and posted by Craig Smith of Rocna Anchors. Craig is notorious for his aggressive marketing of his own anchor and as a result I am uncomfortable accepting information composed and provided by him. I want to see the original test reports, not Craig's reporting of them. Am I cynical? Absolutely.

Stephen and Richard make the valid point that it is not just the hardware that is important, it's the practical use of it that is important. Poor anchoring practices will defeat the best anchor made. I don't see many reports of it anymore, but a common sight in the Caribbean 20 years ago was a French boat coming into an anchorage with its anchor swinging off the bow roller ready for deployment. The French skipper would put the boat into neutral, walk up to the bow and push the anchor over while the boat was still making headway. He'd let out lots of chain and walk back to the cockpit, turn off the engine, and go below as the boat finally snugged up on the rode, came to a stop and (fairly often) swung around to hang on the anchor. Dragging was common, as was ending up 'way too close to another boat. One of the joys of anchoring in the Caribbean.

Practice. Very important. And different anchors/techniques for difference boats and circumstances, definitely.

[redbopeep]

I also do not like the aggressive marketing used by Rocna anchors.

Whoever said "horses for courses" has it right. The right anchor will work in the right place.

If you keep a couple different ones aboard, all will work out. We "inherited" heavy ground tackle that came with the boat and works fine for us. The prior owner considered his anchors to be his insurance. Therefore--big, heavy, oversize anchors and chain. We've used a 105 lb CQR with 1/2" bbb chain everywhere in every type of situation. It always works and holds in heavy winds. The only time this wasn't true was on top the river rocks in the Dana Point Harbor. There was no wind so we only drug slightly but we could tell we were dragging. Further, if one is a moron about plowing the CQR anchor through light silt, then it won't hold there either. We do carry a 95 lb Danforth which would work well in silt but have only deployed it once (as a stern anchor while the CQR was in use as primary on the bow). We also have used our little (30 lb-ish) Norhill kedge anchor as a stern anchor in silt/mud successfully. We have a 120 lb Herreshoff/fisherman anchor that will get used someday when we find ourselves in the middle of rocks and seagrass. Our final backup anchor is a brand new 105 lb Delta/CQR knock-off that has never been used but we'd likely make our primary if the CQR were lost somehow.

Heavy ground tackle is the rather no-brainer way to go, from what we've seen. Heavy anchor, heavy chain, adequate scope (we've always been able to work with lots of scope which helps) it just doesn't take a lot of talent to anchor with this combination, IMHO.

Fair winds,