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Old 01-21-2015, 10:10 PM   #15
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No offence is taken. I merely point out that under the law, including in New Zealand, and Sydney and within the Volvo around the world race, there is a system of natural justice where, no matter which document is proffered, one cannot disclaim liability where negligence is present.

Equally, no lawyer will provide so many redundant phrases within a simple contract. Negligence is negligence. None of the topics you mentioned (Bad seamanship, incompetence, incorrect decision making, ill maintained vessel and equipment, unseaworthy vessel, insufficient equipment and medical skills and supplies), are exclusive of negligent behaviour.

Further, no solicitor or other individual, has the power to allow a third party signatory to waive the rights of people who are not a party to the agreement and who, in all probability could be shown to have no knowledge of the agreement.

Most solicitors would understand that the term 'family members' includes next of kin. Few solicitors would allow such a poorly worded document, with all it's errors of grammar and syntax to be notarised for fear of ridicule from the legal establishment.

Disclaimers exist for a variety of reasons, but they must be written with a view to the law. To propose that the consequences of negligence can be signed away in defiance of the law is not providing a service to any potential crew and from a legal standpoint, is more than just a little irresponsible.
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Old 01-21-2015, 10:57 PM   #16
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Goodness.




So No 1 and No 16 re your Ships Articles you cannot enforce legally and a crew could sue you for inconvenience and additional reimbursement payments if you signed them from the crew list before reaching the agreed final destination merely by your judgement by denying the rights of people crew to privacy re their personal information because you don't need that information only the authorities on their documentation.


The crew list is a separate document.


The hospital refused to preform the operation unless I signed so I did not get the operation, procedure, as they called / termed or the proceedings they wanted to do. They stated it was mandatory that I had to sign the waiver document and they do that with every major operation even for a broken leg. That seems to me and others a waste of resources, paper pulp and logged trees.

What do think if I submit your statements to our health minister and our government solicitor general to reduce health budget port folio costs would be their reply?


Is there a law that says owners / captains must have good seamanship, not be incompetence, and must have a well maintained vessel and equipment, a seaworthy vessel, and sufficient equipment and medical skills and supplies, to make an ocean going sea / ocean passage.
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Old 01-22-2015, 04:04 AM   #17
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It is not difficult!
If someone suffers because of someone else's negligence, the negligible party is liable. If something goes wrong, and it is not as the result of someone's negligence, you can only indemnify that someone against legal action, as long as the possibility of complication has been flagged.


I simply do not understand your concerns about article #1 and #16 in my ship's articles. The Skipper is not subject to democratic principle where "Safe operation and use of the vessel is concerned". And what you are saying regarding article 16 simply makes no sense.


Regarding your last paragraph. Admiralty/Maritime Law provides that the Master of a vessel be competent in all aspects of it's safe operation. For the record, taking an unseaworthy vessel to sea is an act of negligence. The following is from Maritime NZ:
"The skipper is legally responsible for the safety of the boat and all the people on board, and is also responsible for complying with all the relevant rules and regulations..... ignorance of any maritime rules or regional bylaws is not accepted as an excuse". In other words you need to know the law and practice it if you intend to continue being a skipper.


Please look online for Admiralty rules regarding negligent operation of water craft and the legal responsibilities of skippers.


Maritime Law is specific and rarely given to misinterpretation where the safe operation of a vessel is concerned. Indeed the NZ Government is the 90s enforced laws regarding voyaging vessels which should have provided NZ skippers with a better knowledge of Maritime Law than most.


As a seasoned voyaging skipper you have a responsibility to know the law regarding the LEGAL consequences of negligence and what is required for the safe operation of the craft under your control. A part of that responsibility is familiarisation of COLREGS which has plenty to say about negligence and competent operation of vessels at sea.


If it is your wish to put forward your interpretation of NZ Health Laws as they pertain to International Maritime Law, start a new thread.
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Old 01-22-2015, 09:59 PM   #18
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Default Crew liability waivers

The Skipper is the final arbiter where any dispute arises between crew which cannot otherwise be settled amicably.


(1)Not Correct:


The Authorities are and the international conventions and treaties are which would require authority interaction and possibly legal action


16)Crew are responsible for securing and keeping safe their travel and related identification documents and for providing unhindered access to them by the Skipper and other accredited officials.


As Skipper you do not need access to them only the authorities do and I made that statement to cover the other posters that state they must give those documents to the skipper once the crew agreement / rules document has been signed with no mentioned as to when he returns them or that he must provide un hindered access for the crew member which he would need for numerous and vary other circumstances.

IE ID purposes if he wishes to stay at a hotel / motel on credit.

and there is no rule regarding reimbursement should the skipper loose them. Your rule 1 states you are the final arbitrator and we all known most skippers would say sorry I'm not covering those costs. To me and most crew members what I'm saying does make sense.

Plus the conventions state that if there is a dispute and a parting of ways the skipper must provide / liable for and undisputedly for his repatriation to his home land , hotel costs, food, internal travel costs and all other expenses he chooses to charge on credit.


The quotation re NZ Maritime Regs only applies to NZ registered vessels whilst transiting NZ waters. A lower standard for departing foreign vessels [ safety equipment ] state they are except from NZ maritime law [ Safety equipment rules ] as most international owners known as they protested loudly and stated they would avoid all NZ ports as a visiting pleasure craft vessels. Hence NZ maritime law was changed for departing foreign vessels . I.E. a SSB Radio with it's own and separate battery as mandatory plus other equipement.

http://www.maritimenz.govt.nz/Recreational-Boating/Skipper-responsibilities/Skipper-responsibilities.asp

Skipper responsibility NZ Waters at all times all vessels . 12 mile limit. NZ exclusive economic Zone ?
Maritime rules provide that it is the skipper's legal responsibility to ensure that lifejackets are worn in situations of heightened risk, such as when crossing a bar, in rough water, during an emergency, and by non-swimmers. Lifejackets must be stored so that they are immediately available in case of a sudden emergency or capsize.

Lifejackets – a NZ legal requirement

You must carry a correctly sized, serviceable lifejacket (also known as a personal flotation device or PFD) for each person on board a pleasure boat in New Zealand. This is a legal requirement, and this rule applies to all boats, including tenders and larger craft.

Children should wear lifejackets at all times in boats under 6 metres and have crotch straps.

Crotch straps are recommended for lifejackets when they may be used in situations other than very calm water. Even when tightly secured, lifejackets have a tendency to ride up on the wearer if there is any wave action. Crotch straps are mandatory for all children-sized lifejackets and in some yacht racing situations.
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Old 01-23-2015, 12:25 AM   #19
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I am starting to think you only have one oar in the water.
If there is a dispute between crew members when the boat is at sea, there is only one authority if the warring crew can’t resolve the issue amicably. That authority rests with the skipper. I am not sure if your maritime authority would be impressed if the skipper refused to mediate and called the authorities because Billy stole Bobby’s Vegemite…or if someone dropped a shift on watch.
The skipper can demand to see travel documents. He is,believe it or not, the authority on the vessel and if the vessel is sailing into a foreign port, crew members must satisfy the skipper that their documents are in order, before he addresses customs and immigration. That means providing access to their travel documents. (NB. ACCESS not possession. I hope you understand the difference). If you were on my boat and refused to provide me access under those circumstances, you would be going for a swim.
Now there’s an appealing thought!
The balance of your missive is irrelevant.
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Old 01-23-2015, 04:35 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auzzee View Post
I am starting to think you only have one oar in the water.
If there is a dispute between crew members when the boat is at sea, there is only one authority if the warring crew can’t resolve the issue amicably. That authority rests with the skipper. I am not sure if your maritime authority would be impressed if the skipper refused to mediate and called the authorities because Billy stole Bobby’s Vegemite…or if someone dropped a shift on watch.
The skipper can demand to see travel documents. He is,believe it or not, the authority on the vessel and if the vessel is sailing into a foreign port, crew members must satisfy the skipper that their documents are in order, before he addresses customs and immigration. That means providing access to their travel documents. (NB. ACCESS not possession. I hope you understand the difference). If you were on my boat and refused to provide me access under those circumstances, you would be going for a swim.
Now there’s an appealing thought!
The balance of your missive is irrelevant.
Your arguments are getting ridiculous.

I'm pretty sure the authorities and police would not be impressed about sending a crew member for a swim, even if you provided them with an inflatable life jacket and EPIRB. Search and rescue would probably fix a writ to the mast - your vessel for the costs also.

Your post also sends a message to all future crew that you advertise crew wanted, for them not to join your vessel.

What skipper can tell travel documents are legitimate by looking at them and if they are not to order what can a skipper do. They must have been on order to depart the departing port. Re clearance certificate that / a skipper would have as ship documents. Yes.
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Old 01-23-2015, 01:33 PM   #21
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I can only reiterate..
You're a dill.
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Old 01-23-2015, 08:20 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auzzee View Post
I can only reiterate..
You're a dill.
Please educate me and other dill crew members / captains why would any captain want to inspect a crew members travel documents whilst on passage when they have already been accepted and noted by the virtue that they have an official immigration, customs official officers and harbour masters clearance documents and their official acceptance - and the captains crew list - stamped from the departing port authorities with the crew member / members on board his / her vessel before arriving at another port.
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Old 02-18-2016, 09:25 PM   #23
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I am most interested in this comment below.

I am watching a gradually more acrimonious disagreement develop in front of me.

Skipper (solo normally) decided to take on paying crew to go to Cuba. Then decided to stop in Jamaica and then removed their stuff from the boat informing them via the marina staff he didn't want them on board anymore.

Crew has onward travel by air from Havana based on the original plan of arriving in Cuba.

Can someone reference actual law to help here?

Quote:
Most States adhere to the principal / maritime law and conventions that the skipper is also responsible for the crews return airfare, food, accommodation and transport costs whilst the crew member is waiting for a flight to his homeland should there be any disagreement re
departure from the vessel if not the crew members home state.
PS 2 posts in 8+ years. Must be a record..........
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Old 02-19-2016, 12:10 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stewart135 View Post
Skipper (solo normally) decided to take on paying crew to go to Cuba. Then decided to stop in Jamaica and then removed their stuff from the boat informing them via the marina staff he didn't want them on board anymore.
The law varies a lot from country to country. It's only an international convention that says that the skipper is responsible for repatriation of the crew, the law is set by the country in which it applies and not by the IMO or the USA.

Having said that, the skipper is probably going to have a really bad time when it comes to obtaining a clearance certificate from Jamaica.
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Old 03-02-2016, 07:52 AM   #25
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I would also agree with delatbabel, the crew liability waivers would be of no benefit for sure!
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Old 03-02-2016, 01:44 PM   #26
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If I needed a lawyer to interpret a contract before I joined a crew, I wouldn't want to join that crew.

I have only crewed on 2 boats, but each was after a discussion with the captains where we each discussed our experience, lifestyles, plans, and expectations. I turned down a third opportunity, when I didn't like the captain's boat, experience, plan, or ideas about expenses.

I kept my own passport, which I would be unwilling to surrender. I would lend it the captain to clear in and out of a country if I was not accompanying him to the office. I also provided several photocopies when they were requested bu marinas and authorities.

I paid my own travel to and from the vessels and split expenses for provisions, taxis, and paid for anything personal I bought. I didn't pay marina, cruising permit, or fuel fees or pay anything for transport. I did supply a lot of free labor on maintenance tasks beyond just sailing the boats. I am flexible and will provide return transport from any location, but that should be discussed. So if anything changes the final destination, the captain and the crew member don't get an unpleasant surprise.


I think, but can't prove, that if a captain were to demand that a crew member leave his vessel in a foreign port, that the crew member could claim that he was being stranded in that country and demand lodging and transportation to their home. So it is in the best interest of the captain to know that his crew has some financial resources and to keep a good relationship.

Spending time in a confined space with other people for any period of time can lead to conflicts. Throw in fatigue and discomfort and everybody better have the right kind of personality to get along. You can never be 100% certain about how you will get along with another person, but a legal document probably won't fix anything.

I am returning to one of the boats soon. I met the captain on this forum. We had several email and phone conversations before our first cruise. We never had anything in writing, but had a clear understanding of our roles.
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