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Old 03-27-2011, 07:00 PM   #15
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Your last post makes me like your existing boat even more. I do like keel hung rudders, but I also like the idea of getting out there and cruising asap.

I really think the smaller boat is style-wise very lovely and having the full keel very nice. But, seriously if you're really crossing oceans you'll like the larger boat. The larger the boat, the more likely you'll stay right-side-up in big seas

Back to my apples-to-apples discussion--have you made of list of all the things that you can't do without (e.g. how many hundred feet of chain, et al) so you can figure out what will work for both vessels?

What is your timeframe for taking off? How close are you to leaving?

You mention that you're welding and thinking about taking along a welder so I surmise that you're going to work-as-you-go so having room for proper tools and equipment will help you out quite a bit. That weight capacity must be considered with whatever boat you choose. Dreaming is one thing, but a realistic assessment of the boat's payload capacity and the weight of expected tools and supplies is really needed here since the smaller boat just doesn't have capacity for a whole lot.
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Old 03-27-2011, 08:43 PM   #16
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Remembering that SV Watermelon was a moderate to light displacement "racer cruiser", I have always wondered why people wanted a heavy boat for cruising - as one circumnavigator called it, an "oyster crusher". The arguments are always that the boat can carry more than a lighter boat.

I suppose that's true, but it seems that most cruisers-in-planning talk about raising their waterlines 2 or 3 inches after they've got all their "stuff" aboard. That has to affect performance, and safety. Our approach has always been to keep things as light as possible. Buying something new meant getting rid of something old or little-used. We certainly weren't perfect about our weight discipline, but we tried to always be conscious of it.

Another issue is where that weight is placed. Too much weight in the bow and stern of a boat and one has to worry about the boat hobby-horsing in heavy weather conditions. Not comfortable for the crew.

3/8" chain seems like way overkill for your boat - Watermelon used 5/16" chain and never had a problem, and we saw some pretty nasty/scary lee shores occasionally.

There are so many discussions about anchoring, choice of rode, and on and on, but here are links to two of them that might provide some food for thought. Chain, Rocna Knowledge Base and Steve Dashew's "The Right Rode"
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Old 03-27-2011, 11:01 PM   #17
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JeanneP,

I always look at weight capacity as relative to size/displacement, indeed. Most folks aren't disciplined enough to limit what they carry. Nor to put it in the right places. That's a sad fact that I agree with you on. Given that most folks are packrats who carry too much, they might as well be doing it in a boat that will manage that load. I know you had great success, using good discipline in what you carried, being smart about weather windows, and not rushing to cross oceans. Not everyone has the good sense to cruise carefully given the particulars of the boat. Sad fact.

Before getting into discussions of fin keels + and -, I keep saying if I were Seafarer, I'd take his existing boat hands down over the smaller (full keel) boat. And, indeed 3/8" is quite hefty for that boat.

However, the whole "fin keel" vs full keel and keel hung rudder thing is a matter of ease of sailing, limiting rudder and prop damage, and storm survival, IMHO. A very good sailor can take almost any boat and make it work in a broad range of conditions. Just read Pete Goss's Close to the Wind. A lousy sailor is going to be a lot better off with a "forgiving" boat. Full keel boats are generally (but not always) more forgiving to sail. Most folks are in between the very good and the lousy. Very big and very small boats aren't the best for neophytes, either, IMO. Something in the middle, middle of displacement, middle of size is good. People call almost every full keel boat a "heavy displacement" boat. However, they're not all heavy displacement--they're moderate and they're mostly modified full keel anyway. Even our classic wood boat is a modified full keel w/cutaway forekeel and at a whopping 29Ton doesn't even rate as "heavy displacement" for it's size (in some references I've found). We're somehow "moderate". Amazing. But ours does, like other full or modified full keel boats have the keel hung rudder. That is a very nice thing from a design reliability and damage tolerance perspective.

We had a friend experience the October 12 storm (2009) in the Channel Islands in his 27' Ericson. This is an around the buoys little race boat--not a cruiser, not even a coastal cruiser. However, our friend cruised on it for a while. See "overdue sailor safe" on this L38 Link. He stayed west of the islands to weather the storm since he was afraid of being swept onto one of the islands--not knowing how long the storm would last--and according to him, with what he estimated to be 25' to 30' seas (50-60' peak to trough), he thought he was dead for sure. His fin keel boat was not made for this stuff. Because of breaking waves, his boom broke during the time he was lying ahull to a sea anchor. Oh, yes, there's a detail of fin keels that isn't so great--they don't heave to like full keel boats. The geometry isn't there w/o playing with a drogue at angle or something else dragging off the boat. When things get rough, the choices for a fin keel are are run or lying ahull. In that storm, the USCG assumed our friend was dead. They told his best friend in the Bay area that he was likely dead--that no one in a 27' Ericson would make it through that storm. He had his miracle and made it. He is also an extremely bright and talented fellow who is fast on his feet. He made a drogue out of a jib and his anchor chain and an extra anchor. He had to let go all the chain when it was over--couldn't bring it back aboard.

However, I'd not want to be crossing big oceans with a tiny little boat nor would I want to be crossing big oceans with much other than a full (or modified full) keel boat. I like the factor of safety it affords. We all have our opinions.
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Old 03-27-2011, 11:59 PM   #18
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I've currently scheduled my departure date for (any day in) 2014. Mostly likely June if I'm still working for a school, so I can still pick up a paycheck for the first three months.

However, I'd like to be taking week-long trips sometime this year and one-to-three-month trips in the following years before leaving.

For now, I could settle with one 8D and the two G31s. That will at least allow me to get the wiring set up properly in the battery boxes.

If I measured the chain I already have, it is probably somewhere around 250'. I could live with that, but I would still use 3/8HT (I don't have insurance, so I'm paranoid about my ground tackle).

While I said the diesel generator is what I like most about my boat (as it will allow welding in remote locations), I'm not real thrilled with it being mounted all the way aft on the port side. The whole boat actually leans a little to that side. This is one of the big reasons I would like a transom extension. (Of course, that can wait.)
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Old 06-29-2011, 04:55 PM   #19
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If you shop around you can get a better deal on chain. 3/8 chain is big chain. Look at the breaking strength and see if you really need HT chain. I went the opposite direction as you and went with the lightest g70 chain I could get to save weight (I paid $1.77/f from West Marine on a price mismark I expect).

Really no one can make this call for you, but you know what you want. As others have mentioned comparing apples to apples is important, but if you feel better about the other boat, go for it. Your feelings on the matter will be a self fulfilling prophecy no matter what.

At the same time, boats are frustrating and there are times when you will be overwhelmed no matter what boat you are sailing, don't jump into something in a moment of fatigue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seafarer View Post

My compromise is taking more time to get quality longer-lasting equipment, as I doubt I'll be making much money while cruising and thus be unable to afford such quality. It just so happens that on the smaller boat the equipment can be less substantial / robust and therefore less expensive.

I don't want to replace the gypsy on my windlass, and the weight of chain helps to increase the holding ability of the anchor, so I want to stay with 3/8. Everything else in the system (the anchor, swivel, and chain lock) is rated to 5,000lbs SWL, so it doesn't make any sense to me to buy chain that is considerably weaker. You're right that I probably don't need 400' of it though. I just don't want to use rope if at all possible....

I can fit two G31 batteries where each 8D would go (that's what I have now), but in the end that is more expensive. On the Aquarius I would just use whatever fit, it just so happens that the Cal fits two 8Ds... Technically, according to the hand-drawn wiring diagram from a previous owner, it had 6 of them aboard at one time

Oh, and the planned use is a (minimum) five year cruise around the world, so I can decide on where (and if) I'd like to settle down after.
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Old 07-03-2011, 11:29 PM   #20
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Wow, can't quite stay out of this one... Please stop to consider why "you" called this post "desperate" measures. I travel with minimal insurance also. We own two cruising boats, one of full-keel design and one that is a fin-keel. We are anchored right now in a storm in the Caribbean (thankfully not a big one). I won't be as nice as most here, simply because I care (Not implying that they don't, for I know them better than that): 250 feet of 3/8ths BBB in the bow of a 35 foot boat is WAY too much weight unless you LIKE to pitch (hobby-horse) across the ocean. I love the design of the smaller boat, BUT... We live on a 34 foot boat, and it simply is the SMALLEST boat we would want to be on other than our 32 which has a better storage design. If you are not leaving until 2014 you have plenty of time to fix what you have. There is VERY little space for books, equipment, and stores on the smaller boat. ONE anchor and One rode does not make one safe... We are lying with two at the moment, 30 feet of chain on the Bruce, and 45 degrees off of that one 70 feet of chain on the Manson Supreme (The Rocna and the CQR and their rodes are still in the lazurette). IF our boat could comfortably carry more we would (Going to get a big light Fortress and a fisherman YET). Sounds like you need the advice of a good marine electrician more than another boat. Our Pearson is quite spartan, even down to the composting head. Our Tartan has all the bells and whistles except AC (but we have a WindScoop). When we sail the Pearson down here, I will really miss our refigerator on the Tartan. I will miss the hot and cold running water. But we will have more practical storage space, and a berth that is midship and more comfortable at anchor. Our Tartan draws 6'6" loaded to cruise and we may not be able to moor in the local field due to depth at low tide. Our Pearson draws 4'8" loaded to cruise and can go so many more places. If we could mix and match the best of both boats we might get OUR perfect boat, with the emphasis on "might". That said, We only know what will work best for us (but we learned alot of that here), and you only know what will make you happy. I sail larger boats for a living, so I know that they are not the answer for us. And I sail smaller boats for others to get them from place to place after they find them too small for their needs... Each seems to have a different reason. Conversely, I have two friends who sail Dana 24s that swear they are the only boat they will ever want. No one here can tell you what will trip your trigger, but please quit being so hard-headed when they offer advise you came here asking for... I promise, they are only trying to help!
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Old 07-04-2011, 12:43 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildernesstech View Post

Wow, can't quite stay out of this one... Please stop to consider why "you" called this post "desperate" measures. I travel with minimal insurance also. We own two cruising boats, one of full-keel design and one that is a fin-keel. We are anchored right now in a storm in the Caribbean (thankfully not a big one). I won't be as nice as most here, simply because I care (Not implying that they don't, for I know them better than that): 250 feet of 3/8ths BBB in the bow of a 35 foot boat is WAY too much weight unless you LIKE to pitch (hobby-horse) across the ocean. I love the design of the smaller boat, BUT... We live on a 34 foot boat, and it simply is the SMALLEST boat we would want to be on other than our 32 which has a better storage design. If you are not leaving until 2014 you have plenty of time to fix what you have. There is VERY little space for books, equipment, and stores on the smaller boat. ONE anchor and One rode does not make one safe... We are lying with two at the moment, 30 feet of chain on the Bruce, and 45 degrees off of that one 70 feet of chain on the Manson Supreme (The Rocna and the CQR and their rodes are still in the lazurette). IF our boat could comfortably carry more we would (Going to get a big light Fortress and a fisherman YET). Sounds like you need the advice of a good marine electrician more than another boat. Our Pearson is quite spartan, even down to the composting head. Our Tartan has all the bells and whistles except AC (but we have a WindScoop). When we sail the Pearson down here, I will really miss our refigerator on the Tartan. I will miss the hot and cold running water. But we will have more practical storage space, and a berth that is midship and more comfortable at anchor. Our Tartan draws 6'6" loaded to cruise and we may not be able to moor in the local field due to depth at low tide. Our Pearson draws 4'8" loaded to cruise and can go so many more places. If we could mix and match the best of both boats we might get OUR perfect boat, with the emphasis on "might". That said, We only know what will work best for us (but we learned alot of that here), and you only know what will make you happy. I sail larger boats for a living, so I know that they are not the answer for us. And I sail smaller boats for others to get them from place to place after they find them too small for their needs... Each seems to have a different reason. Conversely, I have two friends who sail Dana 24s that swear they are the only boat they will ever want. No one here can tell you what will trip your trigger, but please quit being so hard-headed when they offer advise you came here asking for... I promise, they are only trying to help!
G'day 'Seafarer' Please read - very carefully & several times over what Brenda/David Adams (W-tech) have said. They have/are doing what you are dreaming about. Sure hope you get there. Their comment "I promise, they are only trying to help!" is absolutely true. Now, to what you want to take vs what you do take. Suggest you drastically shorten your 'wish-list'. When (not if) the SHTF you will have only yourself to council as to what you have on board & really needed & likely only yourself to get you out of the delima you got yourself into. So make your decissions very carefully!!!! Now to the matter a welder on board. Don't care about 'why' however - if - I wanted to take a one, I'd pick-up my 170amps, 6.5kgs(14lbs), 60% @ 110amps duty-cycle, using 3.2 mm rods plus 3 packs of rods, put them in a waterproof - air-tight box & stow them low & central & all of that for under $500.00. So - what's your problem? Far more important matters to be considered, like anchoring gear & where to store it while cruising. All anchor gear might best be stowed in a box on the cabin sole at the front of the mast with only a medium pick & chain up on deck in the same location. By all means - keep 100's of kilos/lbs away from the 'pointy-end' as 'W-tech'team has advised. IMHO - My 2 cents worth. Much more to be said about all your 'posts' however we need to be sure you're absorbing what we say although the final call is yours, of course. Ciao, james We are all 'here-to-help', wishing you safe sailing & good times & fine winds, that's a 'given' !!!
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