Go Back   Cruiser Log World Cruising & Sailing Forums > Cruising Forums > General Cruising Forum
Cruiser Wiki Click Here to Login

Join Cruiser Log Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 07-31-2009, 08:10 AM   #1
Ensign
 
maidmarian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 9
Default

There are some incredibly huge and pretty-looking ferro cement boats out there for ridiculously low prices. Are they really that bad, if they are built by a reputable boat builder (ie Adams)? If so, why? If not...why so cheap? Looking for boat now and have to establish first off what construction material to look at and what to avoid. All feedback very welcome. Thanks. mm
__________________

__________________
maidmarian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2009, 09:37 AM   #2
Admiral
 
MMNETSEA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,067
Default

Probably the majority of ferro-cement boats are home built designed by Hartley.

Here is site that provides a fair amount of information : Visit HERE
__________________

__________________
MMNETSEA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2009, 09:42 AM   #3
Ensign
 
maidmarian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 9
Default

thanks for that. I followed the link - it's interesting but written by a promoter of ferro. I would love some unbiassed opinions. Would you own one? Do they have a reputation?
__________________
maidmarian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2009, 09:53 AM   #4
Admiral
 
Nausikaa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,619
Default

Ferro cement is a wonderful material. For the invasion of Europe huge numbers of ferro cement barges were built, many of which are still floating today.

Ferro cement can be easily repaired anywhere too.

IMHO, if well built there is no better boat than a ferro cement but all depends upon the building quality.

Aye // Stephen
__________________
Yacht NAUSIKAA | Call Sign: 2AJH2




WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU DID SOMETHING FOR THE FIRST TIME?

www.nausikaa.org.uk

= Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Lithuania
Nausikaa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2009, 10:09 AM   #5
Admiral
 
MMNETSEA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,067
Default

As Hartley was the link provided - it was given not because of the promotion of ferro-cement but to give information on the subject by a designer of these boats.

Southern Africa - Australia and New Zealand are countries where most have been built. I sailed in a brand new one from Durban to Rio de Janeiro, it sailed well.

It went on to the Med where it was sold.

I helped a New Zealand friend while in Hong Kong, strip the teak deck off his Hartley because the timber foundation had rotted after some 15 years. The hull was still in good nick.

I sure there will be members along with their experience.
__________________
MMNETSEA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2009, 10:15 AM   #6
Ensign
 
maidmarian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 9
Default

wow...that's really interesting. I was half expecting everybody to tell me to stay away, simply because that's the attitude I have come across down here (I'm in Aussie), although this was never backed up with facts, only sentiments. It seems then that one can get a good boat for incredible value. Why aren't they more popular? Is it simply bad propaganda? I'm tempted and will now keep an open mind. Thank you very much for all your input...very appreciated. Off to do more research!
__________________
maidmarian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2009, 11:36 AM   #7
Retired Mod
 
Lighthouse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Home Port: Durban
Posts: 2,984
Default

My 2 pence worth.

Because many were home built and sometimes not built too well they got a bad reputation with insurance companies. I understand that it is sometimes difficult to get insurance cover on home built hulls so check out this aspect as well.
__________________


The World Cruising & Sailing Wiki

Help to build this free, online World Cruising Guide.

"Built by cruisers, for cruisers''

I've Contributed to the Cruisers Wiki: Most sections
Lighthouse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2009, 11:55 AM   #8
Commander
 
chiroeurope's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Home Port: Edinburgh
Posts: 189
Send a message via Yahoo to chiroeurope Send a message via Skype™ to chiroeurope
Default

On this subject I can give you some good advice. DO NOT research via the Web. It is useless unless you are very good at weeding out the opinions from the truth. We don't own our own boat yet and are very seriously looking at building a ferro cement boat for ourself. I have been talking to some people to see if a Uni' would be interested in a practical exercise for the Maritime/Nautical Engineering?design students could get their hands directly into a project. So far getting some responses that look good (will see if it becomes a reality).

Ferro cement has a bad rap for from what I have been able to research, two reasons. First is that where alot of home built yachts out there (and more than a few unfinished ones sitting in fields these days) that where and are not safe or seaworthy or where made in such a way to cut costs. The practice of cost cutting in a build design is not limited to ferro cement only (I have personally seen more than a few GRP's where corners where cut that shorten the life of the boat when I was living on the Great lakes). The Second reason is that the industry (Yacht builders) itself does not care for the material. From what I can see their reasoning is seriously flawed (once above 38-40 ft Ferro weighs about the same as the needed thickness of GRP or steel). Also Ferro has moved very far forward in material design (CEMEX is a form of cement that has between 8 to 12% of additive in its mix and is a large improvement on durability and surface load bearing of the cement).

The Expensive part of Ferro is the time it takes to set up the armature for the cement to mudded on to (hire professional for that part) and the equipment to steam (24 hour steam bath to set the cement) or 4-6 light misting (of the entire hull). From what I have seen depending on how you set up the armature you can go as small as 4mm rod (takes alot though as you still need it able to properly support the 1-2" heavy (one to two layers of that) and than the "chicken" wire mesh that you do minimum of two layers (one inside one out). Wire tying that all together after the rod has been welded on to the ribs of the hull. It is strongly suggested that you place all your through hull points into the wire framework before doing the mudding as that will save time and expensive cutting later (you need very special tools and coolant to cut through steel reinforced cement, IF you want the hull to stay in a sea worthy condition). From what I can see Ferro has some big bonuses, only you have to have the design you want down and dusted before you start building as once you start setting up the mudd changes can become very expensive.

Age wise, ferro gets stronger and more stable over the first 21+ years of being. There is a Bridge in Rome that was built by the Romans and cars drive over it every day.

If you plan on buying a Ferro Yacht look for rust weeping. If it has a really nice paint job ask for any pics they might have of it just beofre or near when it got painted. Also bulging, flaking, a rubber hammer will tell alot as there is a very distinct difference between the thunk os sound cement over soft "rotten" (rubber mallet NOT Iron).

Best of luck and Fair Winds to you.

Michael

PS the above is about three months worth of online and off line research done over a two year time period.
__________________
What you see in the Universe, sees you.
MM6WMU
chiroeurope is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2009, 05:01 PM   #9
Moderator
 
redbopeep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Home Port: Washington DC
Vessel Name: SV Mahdee
Posts: 3,236
Default

We have a boat builder friend who has stated that ferro boats, in theory, are wonderful--but typically the builder doesn't do a sufficiently good job of it. He told us of a builder in the UK that does a great job with a rod armature that is tied and welded together--NO chickenwire Ah, and as I recall, these boats were more costly to produce than an equiv. GRP hull.

I imagine if you have a high quality ferro cement boat properly built, cost-wise it would stack up about the same as other boats of other hull materials and would likely have a safe useful working life consistent with other hull materials. Purchasing a used boat that is home built or built by a small yard would be risky, IMHO, unless the build has been well documented with photos and in terms of materials used.

Since it is hard to find a well built ferro boat on the used market that also has all the other features that one might desire, one is simply more likely to find a good deal on a hull built of another material.

Chiro, regarding having students work on a project--it's not worth it. Find a naval architect and builder with the expertise and experience to do the job--it is much more likely to end up of high quality and good design/safety. As an engineer, I remember all those types of projects (when in school) and they frequently don't end up as they should. Also in the past, as the coordinator of a technology transfer program and as an owner of a technology firm, I've had many undergrad, masters, and PhD students work on projects for me. Often they are interesting projects and often we obtain some interesting results from the students but never has a student performed at a level that a simply "average" reputable and competent professional will. If one is short on funds, look for a good deal on an existing boat, sure, but don't think someone just learning their trade will be able to achieve your goals.

Good luck in finding or building the right boat and design for your purposes
__________________
"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda

What we're doing - The sailing life aboard and the Schooner Chandlery.

redbopeep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2009, 02:17 PM   #10
Ensign
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 27
Default

Maidmarian,

Ferro-cement boats, as has been said in previous posts, is a good material if built properly. They got a bad rap in the 70's when some promoters were selling the dream, especially in North America. Any boat is only as good as the builder no matter what material is used. There are bad ones, good ones and very good ones out there.

I have had a ferro ketch that was laid up by a professional builder in 1970. The hull is better now than when it was built. No rust, no blisters and no rot. A good ferro-cement boat will be hard to tell from good FG one.

As a result of the bad publicity from poorly built, partly finished and some ugly creations, the material has fallen out of favour. Therefore, someone who does proper research and survey can find a good boat at 1/3 to 1/2 the going rate for other materials. Finding a good surveyor who is knowledgeable in the material is key.

In the marketplace, an item that few people want sells for a lower price.

Good luck

Gary
__________________
Gary

"I feel younger while afloat in my boat."

http//HealthyBoating.blogspot.com
Apolima is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2009, 03:51 PM   #11
Moderator/Wiki Sysop
 
Istioploos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Home Port: Samos
Vessel Name: S/Y Thetis
Posts: 559
Default

This discussion is very interesting and brings back memories of a civil engineering course on concrete I had back in my student days.

As would have it last night I met in Emporio, Kalymnos a British couple with a 30 year old 36 ft fero-cement boat, "Balck Mist" built in Canada. They have been cruising with her for years and are very happy.

Fair winds to all
__________________


The World Cruising and Sailing Wiki

Help to build this free, online world Cruising Guide

Built by cruisers, for cruisers.

=Mediterranean,Black Sea,North Atlantic,Caribbean
I've Contributed to the Cruisers Wiki: Mediterranean, Black Sea, Atlantic
Istioploos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2009, 06:19 PM   #12
Ensign
 
maidmarian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 9
Default

well, this has been a plethora of useful information. Went and had another look at the original link suggested by MMNETSEA and yes, it is indeed an informative site. But then, chiroeurope put the fear in my sails with his comment! Such confusion. Anyway, I think I get the message - like all boats, be wary and stay away from badly built anything and use the experts. Thanks again for all the great advice. Much appreciated. mm
__________________
maidmarian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2009, 02:05 AM   #13
Commander
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 129
Default

With any boat of any material, it is universally true that the builder makes the difference. Properly build FC, GRP, steel, aluminum, even wood boats will last longer than you can hope to live. But it is also true that improperly built any hull material can be dangerous to take out of sight of land. I was shocked a few months ago when I saw a very expensive almost brand new European built monohull that was in a French Charter Fleet out of Martinique was up on the rocks and the hull split open. The FRG layup on this 50 footer was less than 1/4" below the waterline. Sure, it was probably state of the art resin and fiberglass, but like an eggshell which can hold an elephant is the alignment is correct, go up on the rocks and the sides just caved in and sheared open. A hand laid or older FRG boat with industry standard hull thickness or more would have taken the rocks with only minimal damage.

- - The idea is to find the "good" boats that fit your needs and plans. Not an easy task. If the vessel you are looking for will be your full time home and you really don't plan of selling it until you have concluded all your sailing dreams - then search and find the best boat regardless of hull material - if the hull is correctly done.

- - If you only want a boat for a limited time to fulfill some sailing desires and then sell it - the FRG boats are well known and can be sold at a reasonable price when you are finished with it. You can be less particular about FRG boats than most of the other hull materials.

- - As mentioned FerroCement has a bad reputation for seaworthiness only because there are too many home-built boats that were not done correctly. One recent development worldwide that would put me off building a new FC boat is the "sand shortage." Beach sand is being stolen and sold in place of mined, clean and washed sand. I have been on many a beach and could not see what the problem was until it was explained to me that beach sand contain a high percentage of sea salt. When mixed into concrete and laid up with a iron/steel re-bar or other metal matrix - it does not take long for the salt to eat away the iron/steel matrix. Knowing what and where the sand came from is now a major problem.
__________________
osirissailing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2009, 09:29 PM   #14
Admiral
 
atavist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Vessel Name: Persevate
Posts: 548
Send a message via Yahoo to atavist
Default

Somehow I just realized that the schooner Anne is a ferro boat.... for some reason I thought she was steel...

gives me a newfound respect for ferro boats...

here's a good link on her construction for anyone intersted in ferro boats.

1000days.net/home/media/boatbuilding/boatbuilding.htm
__________________
“The world turns aside to let any man pass who knows where he is going.” (Epictetus 55 - 135 AD)

"To see new things, and live day to day, is better than wine or poppy, and fitter for a man." (Theseus)
atavist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2009, 08:07 PM   #15
Ensign
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 28
Default

The problem with sidewalk boats is resale value. Don't expect to get anywhere near what it costs to build one when you want to get rid of it. Steel, FRP, Aluminum all take a hit but cement craters in value. If you find a good one and get it cheap, it will get you sailing for less than just about any other type of construction. Just don't expect to sell it for more than you paid for it and/or get a quick sale, unless you price it real real cheap.

In short, if you are trying to spend your children's inheritance, a cement boat is not an investment.

Aloha

Peter O.
__________________
roverhi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2009, 09:15 PM   #16
Admiral
 
atavist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Vessel Name: Persevate
Posts: 548
Send a message via Yahoo to atavist
Default

I agree.... I looked at a couple of ferro boats when I was boat hunting... they all appeared in good shape... one wasa 40 footer and the guy only wanted 5k, the sails and equipment on her were worth more than that he just wanted to get out from under her so that he could stop paying mooring fees... I just couldn't bring myself to do it... really I should have gone for one of them, I'm sailing now but at a much greater cost.
__________________
“The world turns aside to let any man pass who knows where he is going.” (Epictetus 55 - 135 AD)

"To see new things, and live day to day, is better than wine or poppy, and fitter for a man." (Theseus)
atavist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2009, 02:01 AM   #17
Moderator
 
redbopeep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Home Port: Washington DC
Vessel Name: SV Mahdee
Posts: 3,236
Default

I just saw a lovely 38' ferro Atkins Ingrid. I've always thought the Ingrids were pretty boats and this has to be the nicest one I've ever seen. It was built in San Francisco Bay area in 1971 or 72 and according to the owner, there were only 5 or so made at that yard. Great boat.

__________________
"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda

What we're doing - The sailing life aboard and the Schooner Chandlery.

redbopeep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2009, 01:42 PM   #18
Admiral
 
atavist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Vessel Name: Persevate
Posts: 548
Send a message via Yahoo to atavist
Default

also, I ran into these guys some time last year in Spain... can't remember where.

http://www.el-lobo.co.uk/index.html

they have a ferro boat and love it.
__________________

__________________
“The world turns aside to let any man pass who knows where he is going.” (Epictetus 55 - 135 AD)

"To see new things, and live day to day, is better than wine or poppy, and fitter for a man." (Theseus)
atavist is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Do You Have A Ferro? Bead General Cruising Forum 40 08-26-2015 11:02 AM
Electrolasis on ferro yacht Bedouin The Poop Deck 18 09-02-2013 10:08 PM
Ferro Hulls whatnot General Cruising Forum 1 01-14-2008 08:56 PM
Ferro Cement boats catherine@brittany-gites. General Cruising Forum 9 01-24-2007 07:47 AM
Ferro-Concrete Boot lutzonline General Cruising Forum 6 08-23-2006 12:24 PM

Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

RV & Travel Trailer Communities

Our RV & Travel Trailer sites encompasses virtually all types of Recreational Vehicles, from brand-specific to general RV communities.

» More about our RV Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


All times are GMT. The time now is 08:47 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.0
×