Go Back   Cruiser Log World Cruising & Sailing Forums > Cruising Forums > General Cruising Forum
Cruiser Wiki

Join Cruiser Log Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 11-14-2009, 01:08 AM   #15
Admiral
 
MMNETSEA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,067
Default

The latest boat, what do we know?

Built in New Zealand?

Sloop.

The cold molded hull is 30 years old;

She was built up by a professional builder of houses with assistance from boat builders and the designer

She is a one-off design, though she has a strong pedigree with a well regarded kiwi designer

She is made of triple skin NZ kauri, At 17 tons, 45 ft stem to stern, drawing 7'6 and beam 14'6"

"She was designed to the builders specs for a go-anywhere fast bluewater passage maker" Do we mean "She was built to the designer's specs" ?

Presumed to have sailed to USA - been in San Diego for 25 years - now back in New Zealand.

only one other piece of information - new teak decks 2 years ago.

----

What one needs to know, is missing from the minimal amount of information given above.

What was used to glue the Kauri skins of the hull? Was it epoxy? What brand of epoxy? What technique was used in the layup? If Epoxy was not used was the glue Resorcinal - like Weldwood Resorcinol? What thickness of Kauri used? Was it the typical 2 diagonal + 1 fore & aft

5/16th skins applied for this hull.

Finally:-

Who was/is the designer?

Under what conditions was the boat kept in San Diego?

Why were the Teak decks replaced?

P.S. It might be very useful to visit the Classic Yacht Association of New Zealand's website.

they may have a mention of the above boat and the designer:-CYANZ

Because the boat has a few years and the builder not well known, don't let this put you off. New Zealanders as a small nation know a lot about boats and boat building.

Here is another boat of the same vintage built with cold molded Kauri in same way - they have been doing it for a century :- Hermes_sloop.jpg
__________________

__________________
MMNETSEA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2009, 02:36 AM   #16
Moderator
 
JeanneP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,098
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MMNETSEA View Post
One example was given for Florida, where the Broker represents the BUYER and only the BUYER.
This isn't really any different than a real estate broker. Since the broker, be it for a boat or real estate, is paid only by the seller, no matter how a broker represents himself, his primary obligation is to the seller, both financially and legally. Florida's administrative code covers payment of bonds, legal behavior, licensing, etc. but it does not cover a broker's conduct with regard to selling, except in a rather general way - that a broker won't do anything outside his capability, in his own reasonable opinion.

Real estate brokers and boat brokers DO work with buyers to find what the buyer is looking for. Lots of boat brokers will work hard at helping a buyer. However, there is no regulation that a broker or a seller has to disclose defects in the vessel being sold. The big difference between boat sales and real estate sales is that boats can be anywhere in the US and still be suitable to a buyer, whereas real estate is fixed and one does not use a broker in Virginia to buy a house in New York.

Just be careful.
__________________

__________________
In 1986 we went cruising for a few years. After 20 years and 50+ countries and several oceans, we are STILL "cruising for a few years".

SY WATERMELON |
MV WATERMELON (New) | Cruiser's Dictionary, free ebook

= Cruiser's Dictionary, North America,
JeanneP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2009, 06:58 AM   #17
Admiral
 
MMNETSEA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,067
Default

The Law makers in Florida when enacting the statute law

Chapter 326 , Yachts and Ship Brokers

must have had good reason to include in the definition of "Broker" a Buyer's Broker, Ie:

"Broker" means a person who, for or in expectation of compensation: offers, or negotiates to buy; solicits or obtains listings of; or negotiates the purchase, or exchange of, yachts for other persons.

The above defined Broker works soley for the buyer and independently of the Vendor and his/her Broker except where the law provides that information be exchanged or agreement reached.

Surety bonds and irrevocable letters of credit must be in a form to be approved by the division and must be conditioned upon the broker complying with the terms of any written contract made by such broker in connection with the sale or exchange of any yacht or ship and not violating any of the provisions of the Yacht and Ship Brokers' Act in the conduct of the business for which he or she is licensed. The bonds and letters of credit must be delivered to the division and in favor of any person in a transaction who suffers any loss as a result of any violation of the conditions in ss. 326.001-326.006.

(1) Proceedings under the Yacht and Ship Brokers' Act shall be conducted pursuant to chapter 120.

(2) The division has the power to enforce and ensure compliance with the provisions of this chapter and rules adopted under this chapter relating to the sale and ownership of yachts and ships. In performing its duties, the division has the following powers and duties:

(a) The division may make necessary public or private investigations within or outside this state to determine whether any person has violated this chapter or any rule or order issued under this chapter, to aid in the enforcement of this chapter, or to aid in the adoption of rules or forms under this chapter.

(e) The division may suspend or revoke the license of a broker or salesperson who:

1. Makes a substantial and intentional misrepresentation, with respect to a transaction involving a yacht, upon which any person has relied.

4. Acts for both the buyer and seller in a transaction involving a yacht without the knowledge and written consent of both parties.

5. Commingles the money or other property of his or her principal with his or her own.

6. Commits fraud or dishonest acts in the conduct of any transaction involving a yacht.

8. Violates any law governing the transactions involving a yacht, including any provision relating to the collection or payment of sales or use taxes.


The analogy of a Yacht & Ship Broker in Florida to Real Estate Brokers may be tenuous, in that a yacht or a ship is a very complex machine when compared to the average suburban house.
__________________
MMNETSEA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2009, 06:00 PM   #18
Rear Admiral
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 437
Default

I'm certainly no expert, but...

I seem to get asked this a lot... "Kirk what do you think would be the best boat for me?"... to which I now respond with... "You want ME to pick-out the right boat for YOU? Okay... and I suppose next you'll want me to select the right WIFE for you, too!"

I realize this may sound a bit selfish... but I believe this is a choice that must be made on a personal level because the right boat for one sailor may not be the right choice for another... same as when choosing a life partner. It's not something one should let others do for you.

My best advice is to get to know her family, check-out her reputation, engage her a little and decide for yourself is she's the right one for you... and if you're really the right one to satisfy her needs. You buy the most boat you can afford when you're ready to make the commitment.

And, when arranging to seal the deal on a cruising boat, as with a marriage... it's rarely a good idea to take out a huge loan and go deeply into debt just to make it come together.

Cruising (in my opinion) is all about freedom... and who would want to be in a long term relationship with a lover that you can neither afford or satisfy.

Happy hunting.

To Life!

Kirk
__________________
Gallivanters is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2009, 12:45 AM   #19
Ensign
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by canuckiwis View Post
Hmm from this assessment we would be '3 strikes and you're out...'

Strike 1 the cold molded hull is 30 years old;

Strike 2 she was laid up by a professional builder of houses with assistance from boat builders and the designer

Strike 3 she is a one-off design, though she has a strong pedigree with a well regarded kiwi designer

However....

She is made of triple skin NZ kauri, an incredibly strong and beautiful wood (the brits used to love nz kauri for their masts when they first colonised the country in 1800s). She was designed to the builders specs for a go-anywhere fast bluewater passage maker. At 17 t, 45 ft stem to stern, drawing 7'6 and 14'6" she is a pretty big girl (see pics). Teak decks (groan) but these were relaid two years ago. We are going to work with a top notch surveyor of wooden boats who used to build with this particular designer. The designer himself, in his 70s now, is keen to see how she has stood the test of time. The vendor has been really accommodating, indicating he would bend over backward to help us, will fix anything that the survey uncovers, spend time with us after sale learning her systems etc.. We are trying to be as clear-headed and logical about this as we can...but given her lines and pedigree its hard to!

Hope this get to you m8,first timer for me. We too looked at the same boat as you,the 45 van der stat,also with the thought of a well loved ship.Pretty tired & I could see many hours of had graft up in the hard before setting sail. The owner did fess up about the osmosis to us as well as 30 other fact seeking questions.Even if the boat was gifted to us, we both felt we would be better off looking elsewhere.had done a few miles eh???

Regards,murf
__________________
murf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2009, 01:33 AM   #20
Moderator
 
redbopeep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Home Port: Washington DC
Vessel Name: SV Mahdee
Posts: 3,185
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by twomt View Post
i have to jump in here a bit. I build the occasional boat and i would not pass up a home built boat before looking at it. many home builders put way more time/care into a boat build than you will ever find in a yard boat. it pays to look at the joinery and workmanship. home builders in most cases tend to build jewelry boxes taking several years to finish the boat hull and pains to make the fittings as close to exact as possible.

Redbopeep is correct on most counts i just have a quibble with the not well known bit.
Hey there! I know several "unknown" builders who have done some great things. Also know some home-built boats that are awesome. On both counts, though, many are not.

Having just done a major re-build that was the equivalent of building a new wood boat...I know that even we amateurs can do a great job! However, when one goes off to get a boat insured--or one wants a boat which will retain value--one looks for a well known designer and builder. That's just life. We went to tremendous efforts to document all our work, with a surveyor doing progress reports and lots of pics, for example, so that we wouldn't have a boat that could not be insured or that would not hold its value. We did also select a boat of a fairly well known designer and one with good providence to rebuild.

+++

If the cold-molded boat in question is in good shape, enough information is available about her care and maintenance to let the potential buyer know that...and if the price properly reflects the age of the boat as well as the fact that it wasn't built by a well known builder...and if you can get insurance on it... it could be a good buy. There are still many questions left open for one to know whether that boat is a good deal, seaworthy, etc...or something one should run screaming from.

__________________
"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda

What we're doing - The sailing life aboard and the Schooner Chandlery.

redbopeep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2009, 06:36 AM   #21
Ensign
 
twomt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 38
Default

Red, I would not hesitate to buy a boat you and yours rebuilt for the reason you pointed out. So for me the well known builder has little effect on my decision to buy a boat. Insurance not withstanding some folks just do a good job.
__________________
things happen in life. make them all into good things.

our web site is www.ernieanderica.info if you want to get to know us.
twomt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2009, 06:47 PM   #22
Admiral
 
MMNETSEA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,067
Default

The Designer of this New Zealand boat - one the most celebrated designers of beautiful boats.

John Lidgard - say no more.

Just Google "John Lidgard"

Read his book : 'It's in the Blood' - the Lidgard family story
__________________
MMNETSEA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2009, 08:55 PM   #23
Moderator
 
redbopeep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Home Port: Washington DC
Vessel Name: SV Mahdee
Posts: 3,185
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MMNETSEA View Post
The Designer of this New Zealand boat - one the most celebrated designers of beautiful boats.

John Lidgard - say no more.

Just Google "John Lidgard"

Read his book : 'It's in the Blood' - the Lidgard family story
wonderful designer--what about the builder?
__________________
"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda

What we're doing - The sailing life aboard and the Schooner Chandlery.

redbopeep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2009, 09:59 PM   #24
Admiral
 
MMNETSEA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,067
Default

My understanding is that John Lidgard himself oversaw a lot of the build and boat builders from his boat building company were also involved at critical stages.
__________________
MMNETSEA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2009, 06:52 AM   #25
Ensign
 
canuckiwis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 36
Send a message via Yahoo to canuckiwis
Default

Once more into the breach my friends- all is adding up well and the next stage- hull survey- is in the morning. Up on the hard at 10am.

Fingers crossed it all goes well
__________________
canuckiwis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2009, 07:45 AM   #26
Admiral
 
MMNETSEA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,067
Default

Holding Thumbs
__________________

__________________
MMNETSEA is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Need Help Finding A Replacement Footprints Power & Electronics 5 07-14-2013 07:39 PM
Pannama To South-pacific - Tips On Finding Boat To Crew? kelmurray The Poop Deck 0 01-29-2009 04:11 AM
Finding Hardware We Can Trust JeanneP The Poop Deck 2 03-06-2008 11:19 AM

Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

RV & Travel Trailer Communities

Our RV & Travel Trailer sites encompasses virtually all types of Recreational Vehicles, from brand-specific to general RV communities.

» More about our RV Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:27 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.0