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Old 11-19-2011, 06:21 AM   #1
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I’m trying to evaluate the capacity of a couple of bluewater sailing cats

in the 38-41’ range and one of the builders has given me this list of

stuff for the max load above bareboat displacement that would load it

to DWL depth. The first column of numbers is the builders, and the

second is my adjusted numbers (for eample, less crew, and less water

needed with a water maker, but more fuel for more range).

Note that the base bareboat includes

ANCHOR WINCH WITH 45lbs CQR & 55m CHAIN

RAYMARINE ST60 TRIDATA

REFRIGERATOR, FREEZER, LPG OVEN, STOVE (how much LPG do we need)

VHF RADIO

2 x BINNACLE MOUNTED STEERING COMPASSES

LONG RANGE BATTERY SYSTEM WITH AGM 400amp/hrs

ENGINE CRANKING BATTERY

STAINLESS STEEL BBQ

Now we’re new at this with no experience, just planning our future,

and I’m sure there is stuff missing from this list. So what I would

appreciate from those of you with bluewater cruising and ocean

crossing experience is:

What items of significant weight are missing from this list and/or

what seems excessive?

Description ................ Their Numbers My Numbers

Crew 12 @165 each.............. 1984

“Crew" 4 @200 ea ......................................800

Provisions + Personal effects.. 661............ 661

Water (760 litres) 200.8 gal ..1676

Water (151.5 litres) 40 gal......................... 335

Fuel (330 litres) 87.2 gal.......... 613

Fuel (567.8 litres) 150 gal......................... 1055

Liquids carried aboard 67 gal ...505 ...........305

LPG fuel & tanks......................................... 150

Store & spare gear...................... 55............. 55

Extra equipment.......................... 92............. 92

Dingy Raft .................................110............ 160

Motor 100 & Fuel...................... 150............ 250

Watermaker, Solar Panels, etc..................... 250

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Total MAX. load..................... 5696 ..........4113

Thanks and hope to see you out there
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Old 11-19-2011, 04:20 PM   #2
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Spare anchors and chain leaders together with rode are big and heavy items. For a cruising boat anchoring out a lunch hook or spare anchor is a definite must. You can readily lose or need to ditch an anchor... plus rode. What do we do now captain?

Tools and spare parts add weight quickly. A spare starter and alternator should be items to carry if going 'remote' and could add 100lb together with cabling. Wrenches and socket sets are heavy too, plus you may need a few big ones for special jobs, like the shaft seal packing glands. Any spare sails, rigging, lines? So...

Store and spare gear # seems too low. Any diving suits, weight belts and aqua lungs etc. would quickly add up.

Liquids carried aboard? Is that oil changes or just a well-stocked beer and liquor cabinet? Or a holding tank, which should be empty offshore? It seems a bit high but with a thirsty crew of 12 and a six-pack a day each it may be just right.

The builders show almost a ton for 12 crew... are they racing or carrying illegals?? It sounds like a day-sail max to me.

Two full alum 25lb LPG tanks are quite a bit lighter than you chalked up and you could go with a smaller size too. LPG lasts unless you plan to do a lot of BBQ.

Water makers are a questionable item in my book. They are heavy and take a lot of plumbing and maintenance. In dirty water you are soon going to be tired of the constant fixing and maintenance. Plus, you need extra fuel to make water. All in all, it's very expensive water. Depending on your plans, investigate if carrying more water and perhaps catching some along the way might be a better idea.

With a water maker I'd almost expect to see a separate generator aboard. That could add several hundred pounds of load but would be more efficient than running the engine for power. The solar cells alone would have a tough time running the water maker IMHO.

Happy planning!

Ivo
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Old 11-20-2011, 03:25 AM   #3
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Only once in all our years of cruising did we worry about getting water, and that was in Papua New Guinea where we discovered that the island where we had counted on getting water had all their wells contaminated so there was no potable water within a day's sail. We were down to less than a liter of water, but there was an island freighter there who offered us all the water we could possibly carry - lovely water, too - and all he asked was if we could spare a few books for him to read. A FEW? I would have emptied our lockers of lots more stuff in return for the water. Nice fellow, too. This was an unusual situation for us - we were having such a great time exploring some incredible places that we put off trying to find provisions until almost too late.

SV Watermelon carried 75 gallons of water in its tanks, 44 gallons of diesel (plus two 5-gallon jerry jugs of diesel), and 20 pounds of propane. We had 10 extra gallons of water in two jerry jugs. I agree with Ivo that a watermaker is a real pain, and hugely energy hungry. And expensive - to acquire, and to run. True, relying on tankage and jerry-jugging or catching rain water requires discipline, but I never felt deprived or burdened by the lack of a watermaker. Granted, Peter did all the heavy lifting, but I did all the laundry and dishes, so we both thought that was a fair division of labor.

Spares. We carried an extra alternator and water pump. Lots of nuts, bolts, other fasteners. Emergency repair materials, but not a lot.

Extra sails. We carried a spare mainsail and headsail. Two storm sails. Those we needed and used.

Because we spent a great deal of time in the Solomon Islands, Papua New Guinea, Borneo, and a few uninhabited places, we often carried more food provisions and trade items than the average cruising boat probably needs. And many, many pounds of coffee. I got very adept at feeding us well with very few heavy canned items. Good thing we liked all kinds of seafood and caught most of it ourselves.

We rarely carried a supply of oil sufficient for an oil change because we really didn't use our engine very much (only once in 20 years of cruising did we come close to running out of fuel, but we never did run out). Any place where there was a port of entry we could find fuel and oil and propane.

Nowadays one can carry a library of books on an 8 GB memory card weighing a fraction of an ounce, read on an eReader weighing less than a single paperback. That frees up so much space AND weight. Think about toys when you are planning your cruising. Scuba or snorkeling gear. Photography gear. Computers, printers, etc. IMO, cruising should expand one's experiences and activities, not replace others. Don't leave behind past joys and pleasures expecting that cruising will fill all the spaces of your life so you won't need/want them anymore. So make allowances for more than just the bare "survival" set.

I'm sure there's more - Watermelon's logs and my Cruiser's Dictionary might have more that would interest you.

It's a wonderful lifestyle, and as with anything worth doing, it is best when one works at it.

Fair winds,

Jeanne
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Old 11-20-2011, 03:15 PM   #4
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Great comments Jeanne... and btw with my lysdexia I mistakenly addressed you rather than Redbopeep earlier in the thread.

The concern I have is not carrying enough oil for at least one complete change. Even with plenty of fuel a sudden oil loss via

a defective oil cooler or hose can convert you into a purist or Luddite sailor. Traveling in the remote Andes our VW bus got stuck fording a river and the engine oil was contaminated with fresh water. Salt water would be far worse for roller bearings or the lead-antimony main bearings of a diesel. due to galvanic corrosion. Besides, you could burn the oil as a diesel substitute in a dire emergency if suitably diluted ( plan b4 you run out of diesel ) and oil will also calm the water in a storm. It is lighter than water so if there is space for it I'd definitely take it along.

Ivo
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Old 11-20-2011, 07:43 PM   #5
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Thanks for all your helpful comments, keep 'em coming.

It is becoming clear that the boat builders overestimate the draft and bridgedeck

clearance (if they even list it) by specifying them only with an unloaded boat, and/or

specifying them with an unrealistically light load to DWL.

It is getting frustrating trying to find a truly long-range bluewater capable cat of 40'

of less with a good layout which can retain sufficient clearance and good

performance with a reasonable full load of 6000 to 8000 pounds.

:-(

Quote:
Originally Posted by rgesner View Post

I’m trying to evaluate the capacity of a couple of bluewater sailing cats

in the 38-41’ range <snip snip see original post>

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Old 11-20-2011, 08:32 PM   #6
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Not having done much research on cats I'm out on a limb here, but the 3 to 4 ton load you wish to carry may be a bit

ambitious for a cat.

My cutter is 45' and about 29000 lb dry. I'm considering 7000lb a pretty full cruising load. That includes 800lb for live bodies

and 300g water with 210g (US) of fuel. Those 7000 lbs are approximately 24% of the dry displacement. How does that

ratio fly with your dry weight? You may still float but I suspect you'll hardly be doing much flying in your cat then.

Ivo
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Old 11-20-2011, 08:44 PM   #7
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Well, I'd sure like to pare it down to a less weight

Just trying to compile a list of everything that is required for safety or

needed for a reasonable compromise of range and comfort, and then

figure out how much that all weighs and find a cat on which that can still

yield reasonable performance.

- Rusty

Ps. I see some builders are putting in granite countertops, LOL - in what

alternate universe is that a good idea?

Quote:
Originally Posted by linnupesa View Post

Not having done much research on cats I'm out on a limb here, but the 3 to 4 ton load you wish to carry may be a bit

ambitious for a cat.

My cutter is 45' and about 29000 lb dry. I'm considering 7000lb a pretty full cruising load. That includes 800lb for live bodies

and 300g water with 210g (US) of fuel. Those 7000 lbs are approximately 24% of the dry displacement. How does that

ratio fly with your dry weight? You may still float but I suspect you'll hardly be doing much flying in your cat then.

Ivo
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Old 11-20-2011, 09:26 PM   #8
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May I suggest some heavy and rustic cast iron pots and skillets to hang above the granite, Rusty? Verrry chic!

OK, "reasonable". Are you talking a world cruise with 24/7/365 live-aboard capabilities or a one-time

crossing? I'd think there is a world of difference in how you'd stock and choose the boat then.

ivo

Quote:
Well, I'd sure like to pare it down to a less weight

Just trying to compile a list of everything that is required for safety or

needed for a reasonable compromise of range and comfort, and then

figure out how much that all weighs and find a cat on which that can still

yield reasonable performance.

- Rusty

Ps. I see some builders are putting in granite countertops, LOL - in what

alternate universe is that a good idea?
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Old 11-20-2011, 09:52 PM   #9
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We intend to live aboard 24/7/365 in various parts of the world for up to 10 years, cruising whenever possible, and undertaking crossings at least a few times.

My wife will be working in whatever port cities in which she can find suitable employment, and/or telecommuting, and I'll be substantially retired but doing some tconsulting.

Obviously, with these requirements, whatever cat we decide upon will have to be a compromise.

We could either acquire a boat in the USA or somewhere overseas, so our options are open in that respect.

Thanks - Rusty

Quote:
Originally Posted by linnupesa View Post

May I suggest some heavy and rustic cast iron pots and skillets to hang above the granite, Rusty? Verrry chic!

OK, "reasonable". Are you talking a world cruise with 24/7/365 live-aboard capabilities or a one-time

crossing? I'd think there is a world of difference in how you'd stock and choose the boat then.

ivo

Well, I'd sure like to pare it down to a less weight

Just trying to compile a list of everything that is required for safety or

needed for a reasonable compromise of range and comfort, and then

figure out how much that all weighs and find a cat on which that can still

yield reasonable performance.

- Rusty

Ps. I see some builders are putting in granite countertops, LOL - in what

alternate universe is that a good idea?
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Old 11-20-2011, 11:11 PM   #10
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OK Rusty, clearly time is no object then and a comfortable but safe, heavy and slower boat would be my likely choice. Making compromises results in an egg-laying yet wool-producing milk-pig that also can be used for dressage. Or can it really?

It is probably better for you to distill out your must-haves first. Like-to-haves take a second row seat. For me a stand-up workshop was an essential and I sacrificed what could have been a separate cabin but to each his own. Talk to others and listen to what has worked for them and what gripes they have. I just googled some catalan stuff and the other links had a host of pro-and-con material specific to cats. Overloading, cruising range, weight of equipment such as watermakers etc. and even hull materials.

Enjoy your planning. A word of caution you have already hinted at: do stay away from granite. Perhaps nice looking to the ladies but a terrible record for flotation. Also, the boat shows are for what sells, cruisers use what works.

Ivo

Quote:
Originally Posted by rgesner View Post

We intend to live aboard 24/7/365 in various parts of the world for up to 10 years, cruising whenever possible, and undertaking crossings at least a few times.

My wife will be working in whatever port cities in which she can find suitable employment, and/or telecommuting, and I'll be substantially retired but doing some tconsulting.

Obviously, with these requirements, whatever cat we decide upon will have to be a compromise.

We could either acquire a boat in the USA or somewhere overseas, so our options are open in that respect.

Thanks - Rusty
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Old 03-01-2012, 01:24 AM   #11
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I used to sail with a friend on his very lightweight Corair trimaran. We could overload that boat with just a weekend's worth of stuff that we'd take for a raftup/anchoring trip. He cruises with it for weeks at a time and I know he bogs it down with too much stuff. I think finding a boat that works with the stuff you want to take is important. Even though I want to eventually buy a small boat of my own, I am thinking I'll be looking at something with more capacity than any of the small multihulls.
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