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Old 08-10-2012, 08:17 AM   #1
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Default I fell of my chair!

Our new Antigua 44 (a CSY derivative) has an evil prop walk to starboard. We are not looking forward to having to reverse down a marina I can tell you.

So naturally our thoughts turned to bow thrusters and the Antigua is certainly a good candidate.

Now I have seen lots of folks on the hard install them and get into all sorts of problems in relation to alignment etc so raised this question in a CSY forum we are also part of. I got sent about 30 images step by step on installing a bowthruster.

Here are just a couple of images - CHECK OUT THE HOLE SAW!!!!!!

That guy must have arms like Hercules but if that saw grabbed - he'd be doing the twist like no ones business!

But how neat is that for installing a bow thruster?

I have the whole series if anyone is interested (from marking out to final finishing and antifoul. Drop me a line

Fair winds,


Mico
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File Type: jpg Pilot-Drill.jpg (80.4 KB, 4 views)
File Type: jpg Now-that's-a-holesaw!.jpg (73.9 KB, 9 views)
File Type: jpg Halfway.jpg (62.5 KB, 3 views)
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Old 08-10-2012, 03:53 PM   #2
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1. cheater
2. ya want a hole that big through your hull, huh? Putting in a crash bulkhead too?
3. what's wrong with back-and-fill? It's what the rest of us with full keel boats do...
4. ...cheater
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Old 08-11-2012, 02:32 AM   #3
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I think many cruisers slag off (Ozism) at those with bow thrusters. I always have. It's a long keeler's favourite sport. But, like most cruisers who have goofed it when reverse turning out of a marina berth into a wind, against prop walk, I secretly envy those who just push a button to achieve perfect attitude every time.

Of course, I wouldn't have one....because....well.....um....er....ah......... ...Well Slocum didn't have one!

Now what about those pompous traditionalists who insist on sailing both onto and off moorings. Just who do they think they are?
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Old 08-13-2012, 02:36 AM   #4
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Default wicked prop walk

Mico
Learn how to use that prop walk to your advantage and you will be able to put your boat ANYWHERE you wish. You must learn to turn in the direction that the prop walk determines, and going alongside also.
Just this week when I went alongside for fuel, another skipper came over and said "boy it must be nice having a bow thruster". "What bow thruster?" I asked him. What the h**l was he talking about? I finally got it; I guess I'm the dummy!
I've run many a commercial vessel w/ thrusters and they are truly a great feature on twin screw motor vessels.
But for those of us on cruising boats, beware of learning to rely on a piece of equipment that will fail! Without a doubt when you most need it.
Congrats on the Antigua; you now have a terrific cruising boat. Are you off soon?
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Old 08-13-2012, 02:50 AM   #5
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To be fair, I don't see a problem with thrusters. It is just another new piece of technology designed to make life easier. Engines did the same thing, as did GPS, Radar, sonar and radio. If you embrace technology in any form, it is disingenuous to criticise anyone for doing exactly the same, allbeit with a different branch of technology.

If I was in a position where I had to do a lot of close quarters handling in an area of high winds and strong currents, I would not hesitate to employ any new technology which would make boat handling safer and easier.

New technology is nowadays very reliable. It may break down eventually just as surely as anything else on your boat may break. That's why we all carry sight reduction tables and a sextant, isn't it?!
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Old 08-13-2012, 03:20 AM   #6
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[QUOTE=capta;34752]Mico
Learn how to use that prop walk to your advantage and you will be able to put your boat ANYWHERE you wish. You must learn to turn in the direction that the prop walk determines, and going alongside also.

That is a good point Capta.

The problem I find in my sailing life is that no two vessels are alike in reversing ability.

I started out years ago with a 62' Roberts Ketch with a 6.5' full keel, fixed three blade prop and a big hefty rudder supported by an equally heavy pintal at its foot.

She was a delight and respond to the slightest touch of the wheel and I could (if taken slowly and carefully) reverse the full length of the marina without batting an eyelid. A 3 point turn with her 90 hp turbo diesel and twin disc gearbox was easy and despite her length, I could manoeuvre her bow within a kiss of the wharf to let crew on and off without a problem.

Years later we renovated a 23' deep fin keel cruiser with a hung spade rudder and feathering two blade prop. It turned on a dime but could easily get away from us if we reversed too quickly or didn't reverse at all if we didn't give it a kick first to open the blades.

We then went to Mico with her tiller steering, a big hefty rudder, 4.2' 3/4 length keel and 3 blade feathering prop.

The first time we took her out of the pen I was expecting the same manoeuvrability as our fin keeler. Obviously that was never going to happen and we took out a neighbours rail on their bowsprit. Lesson learnt!

Mico has no prop walk and if we are tender with only small corrections of the tiller, we can reverse with a fair degree of confidence. (after much much practice mind you!)

Australis is still very new to us, long, beamy and much heavier with a full keel, big supported rudder and a 3 blade feathering prop. It's going to take us a while to get her measure and I'm still miscalculating her beam as I take her in (thank gawd for big fenders!)

We've now painted a mark on the middle of the pen so that I can line up our bow and leave enough room for her beam.

But stick her in reverse and her stern will go 3' to starboard while she reverses about a foot back. That can be scary for the uninitiated which we certainly are.

So - here's a challenge for everyone...

Keeping in mind that no two vessels are alike and there are many other influencing factors such as windage etc - what techniques do people use to reverse safely? I would love to learn the art of using 'prop - walk' and would be delighted if someone could outline a step by step approach i.e.

1. With a starboard prop walk, to stay in a straight line, turn wheel 3/4 over to ....?

The great thing about this forum is that there are always heaps of people far more canny than I and I'm always learning heaps for everyone - thanks!

Oh - we're heading back to Borneo and Australis early next month and will take her up to the Phllipines (better learn how to spell it :P) for 8 weeks and then do a slow loop out into the South China Sea back to Kota.

Fair winds,


Mico/Australis
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Old 08-13-2012, 04:02 AM   #7
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From the extreme cutaway of a 60' Transpac winner to a long keel, heavy displacement 65' cruising boat to our more modern cutaway forward with a skeg rudder Pearson 53'; I do most of my steering in forward.
Helm hard over; goose it for only enough time to swing the stern. Then reverse until you are as far off your reverse line (intended course) as you want to go; goose it again for only enough time to swing the stern back past your intended course, then reverse, etc, etc. No playing w/ the wheel, no thought of a straight line; just keeping the boat under control at all times.
Did you understand?
If you can get any boat going backwards fast enough to steer after pulling it out of gear, you should be able to steer w/ the helm until you lose momentum.
As you said, every boat is different, but all in all; they are boats and they turn around their center, unlike a car. So all the same rules apply, until Murphy arrives!!!!
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Old 08-13-2012, 06:03 AM   #8
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Mico--suggest you review the term "back and fill" as it applies to sailboats. Many youtube vids on it though most are showing modern boats that back more easily than they go forward in close quarters! In the US, the standard ASA sailing curriculum includes teaching of the technique. What is needed for a particular vessel is very individual to that vessel and how it is even loaded for a particular trip. bow windage, cutaway on the forekeel, keel shape, rudder size (and rudder exposure to prop wash), prop walk direction. It all varies.

Fair winds,
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Old 08-13-2012, 10:36 AM   #9
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Auzzee, I probably shouldn't encourage you, but "What the hell?" I am new to this forum and love your delicious sense of humor. Keep it up!!! gts1544
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Old 08-13-2012, 07:04 PM   #10
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I would try to set up a course to practice in where there is nothing to hurt.
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Old 08-13-2012, 08:33 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coyote View Post
I would try to set up a course to practice in where there is nothing to hurt.
There's always something to hurt
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Old 08-13-2012, 08:40 PM   #12
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I think we're lost in translation.

We're very familiar with 'back and fill' - it's one of the basic skills here in Oz for small boat handling and I agree most modern sailboats are going to have better steering in forward travel - we do it all the time. My comment was merely pondering if there were any hidden techniques for reversing in a straight line over a long distance and how prop walk was taken into account. We have to back and fill every time we leave either of our berths in Mico or Australis but I'm always impressed by one guy further down the pen who reverses the full length of the marina as easy as pie. He might be showing off but always manages to turn heads

The original post was actually just on the size of the hole saw - we've certainly done a back n fill from there

Fair winds,

M/A
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