Go Back   Cruiser Log World Cruising & Sailing Forums > Cruising Forums > General Cruising Forum
Cruiser Wiki

Join Cruiser Log Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 02-22-2008, 11:51 AM   #1
Ensign
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 3
Default

zippy.jpg).

My sailing is limited to Thames Barges but this seems bonkers.

What do you think?
__________________

__________________
lavenderbeard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2008, 12:25 PM   #2
Admiral
 
MMNETSEA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,067
Default

Hello there,

Perhaps it would be useful if the question was put to the "captain" as to the allegation as outlined in this post. Obviously if your friend is unhappy with what is being proposed , she will be free to decline joining the vessel.

Unfortunately, what is presented in this hypothetical proposition and its lack of details, with its countless imponderables makes it very difficult to answer sensibly.
__________________

__________________
MMNETSEA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2008, 05:22 PM   #3
Moderator
 
JeanneP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,098
Default

which is it, Lavenderbeard. Are you the captain of this pacific crossing boat (on YBW forum you say "I am crossing...."? If not, are you going to be on the boat with the four family members?

That dinghy is absurd as a liferaft for 4 people, not even worth discussing for five, and the differences between a liferaft and a dinghy are significantly more than just a cover over the hull.

If you are the wife, take your kids and leave, and refuse to return until a proper life raft is placed on the boat. If you are an additional crew, bow out, now. If you are the "captain", you're not much of a captain and certainly don't have enough experience or common sense to be making such a decision with the lives of your wife and children.

I don't really care what happens to a person who has made a decision regarding his own life and safety, but I sure do care about those two children.

Enough said. This thread has made me cranky.
__________________
In 1986 we went cruising for a few years. After 20 years and 50+ countries and several oceans, we are STILL "cruising for a few years".

SY WATERMELON |
MV WATERMELON (New) | Cruiser's Dictionary, free ebook

= Cruiser's Dictionary, North America,
JeanneP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2008, 07:22 PM   #4
Admiral
 
Nausikaa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,619
Default

We recently ran a debate on the issue of using the title "captain". If you read this debate you will know that I avoid that perceived title however I am proud to call myself a master mariner and a commander (Coast Guard) and, much as I normally dislike it, on this occasion I am more than willing to throw my weight around a bit and with regard to my experience and training will categorically state that the use of this craft as a life raft is or should be a criminal offence. If someone should loose their life in this thing then the master of the vessel should be charged with manslaughter. I would gladly be the first expert witness for the prosecution.

Aye // Stephen
__________________
Yacht NAUSIKAA | Call Sign: 2AJH2




WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU DID SOMETHING FOR THE FIRST TIME?

www.nausikaa.org.uk

= Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Lithuania
Nausikaa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2008, 05:24 PM   #5
Moderator
 
redbopeep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Home Port: Washington DC
Vessel Name: SV Mahdee
Posts: 3,185
Default

I've never heard of ANY cruiser being unwilling to bring along extra safety equipment when its "free" so to speak. The ONLY reason I can think this may be possible is that the vessel in question is very, very small and a proper liferaft for 5 or 6 people takes up a good bit of room on the deck of such a vessel. If its that small/cramped, there may be other safety shortcuts this family is forced to take as well. From quantity of water, fuel, food, spare gear...etc...

We all have free will and people do many foolish things (with or without their children in tow).

As an aside, the cover shown in the pic looks like a home-made version of a respectable (BoatUS + Cruising Club of America tested) lifeboat conversion (Tinker) that I asked the cruiserlog opinion of several months ago. My interest was piqued by lifeboat vs life raft (boat you can row or sail, raft just drifts) and the ability to have our Tinker dingy do "double duty" however, after doing my homework, I decided that the particular lifeboat conversion was only big enough for 2 people and that we'd end up carrying our existing Tinker AND a liferaft (or adding a second Tinker dinghy/lifeboat) on any crossing because (as a matter of safety) we don't do crossings with just two people...

There are lots of folks out there who cruise without a life raft, period. It is an individual decision. Just as we exclaim "how could these people risk their kids lives with no liferaft" there are many people who believe no one should risk their kids lives cruising in a small boat anyway. And, folks who exclaim no person should do so...and folks who exclaim that nobody should live the cruising life, period...the next thing you know we'll all be sitting in the living room reading about adventure and watching it safely on TV.

However "we" may feel about the safety of a crossing, its the business of the folks who are in that particular boat how they want to deal with all issues of their cruising life.

I appreciate the good comments and input from the cruiserlog. I appreciate the good technical info and experience-based insights. I hope that Lavenderbeard can illuminate us with the actual situation (small boat, etc) and can encourage his/her friend to go ahead and purchase or rent a liferaft, investigate a reasonable lifeboat solution, OR just not join this crossing if not comfortable with the situation.

fair winds
__________________
"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda

What we're doing - The sailing life aboard and the Schooner Chandlery.

redbopeep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2008, 10:58 PM   #6
Admiral
 
MMNETSEA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,067
Default

Redbopeep makes a very good case.

And to add a little to our discourse, and returning to the original picture of the dinghy which was allegedly/purportedly preferred to a life raft - the dinghy in question looks like a RIB.

Here is a hypothetical situation :-

It is a 10 ft fairly standard RIB

It has an engine say 9.9 Hp and a full 5 gallon tank

5 miles offshore, south of San Diego - California

Easterly prevailing wind 10 knots all the way to Honolulu

At 5 PM the mother yacht develops a catastrophic leak and starts to sink.

3 adults 2 children have time to grab a grab bag, launch their 5 man life raft and launch their RIB. They get into the RIB and detach themselves from the mother ship - and also detach the liferaft.

The yacht sinks, They mayday on the hand-held VHF - no response.

They head for land , towing the life raft , but are losing ground fast with the wind and current against them.

Options :-

1. Get into the life raft - retaining the RIB painter. Deploy sea anchor to slow drift.

2. Get into the life raft - release the RIB. Deploy sea anchor to slow drift.

3. Release the life raft and head for land in the RIB.

The question remains:- Are our unfortunates presented with a true choice or a Hobson's Choice?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Notwithstanding the above , if you are cruising far offshore a dinghy is no substitute for a properly provisioned and serviced life raft. They are two very different craft with different

applications - which only in a few circumstances can they complement each other.

Richard
__________________
MMNETSEA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2008, 04:18 AM   #7
Admiral
 
Nausikaa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,619
Default

The concept of sewing up a tent to erect on a RIB to convert it to a liferaft is so ridiculous it is not even worth thinking about.

Just look at that "tent". A liferaft canopy is designed to withstand steady hurricane force winds. How would that tent cope in winds as low as a force 6 ???

Compare the stability of that "craft" with a liferaft and then look at such things as ease of launching in heavy weather, inflation if it is not kept permanently inflated, equipment on board, reserve buoyancy i.e. what happens if the tube is punctured etc. Keep on making comparisons and I am sure that anyone in his or her right mind would not consider this "liferaft" suitable for any form of emergency situation.

The one good thing about it is that the experiences of the Fastnet disaster are unlikely to be repeated as there is no way one would take to this "liferaft" whilst the sailing vessel was still afloat.

Aye // Stephen
__________________
Yacht NAUSIKAA | Call Sign: 2AJH2




WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU DID SOMETHING FOR THE FIRST TIME?

www.nausikaa.org.uk

= Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Lithuania
Nausikaa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2008, 02:23 PM   #8
Moderator
 
JeanneP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,098
Default

The picture of the dinghy looks a bit smaller than 10', perhaps 9'. Most dinghies under 10'6" have a stated maximum carrying capacity of 4 persons, 3 persons for the Avon 9'3" dinghy.

5 miles off the coast of California in a 10 knot breeze is probably equivalent to about 15 miles in a calm bay. Overload the boat with five persons, even if two are children, and space and weight are going to reduce the range of any outboard. If the winds are 15 knots and the dinghy is overloaded, the risk of capsize is significant. Liferafts are not dinghies, they have more flotation, they are designed to keep water out and stay upright without any fiddling around. There is no guarantee that lives will be saved if the boat is abandoned for the liferaft, but in all but benign conditions a liferaft is significantly safer than a small overloaded dinghy in the open ocean.

Regardless of where the dinghy is kept while on passage, the outboard will not be on the boat when it is deployed in an emergency. I wouldn't want to try to mount a 10- or 15-hp outboard onto it in those circumstances.

Redbopeep. Of course the decision is the boat owner's and crew's decision to make. The children, however, do not have a choice, and apparently neither does lavenderbeard. My suggestions are valid, I think. Mother, your children are endangered by these decisions, so get off the boat. Friend, nothing might happen, but if it does, your life is endangered, so get off the boat.

by the way, we crossed the Pacific without a liferaft. Our choice.
__________________
In 1986 we went cruising for a few years. After 20 years and 50+ countries and several oceans, we are STILL "cruising for a few years".

SY WATERMELON |
MV WATERMELON (New) | Cruiser's Dictionary, free ebook

= Cruiser's Dictionary, North America,
JeanneP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2008, 09:53 PM   #9
Admiral
 
MMNETSEA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,067
Default

Folks,

To Repeat and give the best solution to a purely hypothetical situation when taking all the hypothetical factors into the equation :-

Here is a hypothetical situation :-

It is a 10 ft fairly standard RIB

It has an engine say 9.9 Hp and a full 5 gallon tank

5 miles offshore, south of San Diego - California

Easterly prevailing wind 10 knots all the way to Honolulu

At 5 PM the mother yacht develops a catastrophic leak and starts to sink.

3 adults 2 children have time to grab a grab bag, launch their 5 man life raft and launch their RIB. They get into the RIB and detach themselves from the mother ship - and also detach the liferaft.

The yacht sinks, They mayday on the hand-held VHF - no response.

They head for land , towing the life raft , but are losing ground fast with the wind and current against them.

Options :-

1. Get into the life raft - retaining the RIB painter. Deploy sea anchor to slow drift.

2. Get into the life raft - release the RIB. Deploy sea anchor to slow drift.

3. Release the life raft and head for land in the RIB.


The best option is #1. Reason :- It was 5pm when the drama started, by the time the life raft and the RIB had been launched it was already getting dark. The Life Raft with its sea anchor was not going to go very far. Therefore transferring into the life raft , deploying the sea anchor , retaining the RIB by it painter presented the best option. The protection from the elements overnight in the Life Raft gave the crew the opportunity slowly recover from the initial shock so that in the morning they were in a better position to make decisions.

Also repeating a fact :-

When cruising far offshore a dinghy is no substitute for a properly provisioned and serviced life raft. They are two very different craft with different applications - which only in a few circumstances can they complement each other.

My Life Raft :-

Life_Raft.jpg

Richard
__________________
MMNETSEA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2008, 10:15 PM   #10
Moderator
 
redbopeep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Home Port: Washington DC
Vessel Name: SV Mahdee
Posts: 3,185
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeanneP View Post
we crossed the Pacific without a liferaft. Our choice.
Exactly my point. And, this is their choice. With or without children.

Jeanne, you've made so many wonderful posts. You are helpful and sincere. It is not you that I'm referring to in the following statement--but instead faceless complainers talking about other people's children--

People unfortunately endanger their children in all kinds of ways. Its still their choice. Most discussions start with the logic or illogic of what a person is doing. Then, things often digress with people pointing fingers at how other folks are doing xyz with their kids .... "unsafe, irresponsible, whatever" the wagging fingers go. Instead of discussing the actual hazard and likely risk to all involved...saying "he can do x but oh, his poor, unsafe children" is a way of perching on moral high ground that people tread lightly around and about.

Here, the bottom line is that those of us talking about this matter aren't with these folks on their trip; further Lavenderbeard seems to have gone silent after submitting a controversial pic/ post. Perhaps Lavender just wanted to get some folks riled up...

I'm going to go make a hit on the recent post/poll on liferafts as that's a better place to have good discussion about the topic of liferafts.
__________________
"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda

What we're doing - The sailing life aboard and the Schooner Chandlery.

redbopeep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2008, 09:19 PM   #11
Ensign
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 3
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by redbopeep View Post
Exactly my point. And, this is their choice. With or without children.

Jeanne, you've made so many wonderful posts. You are helpful and sincere. It is not you that I'm referring to in the following statement--but instead faceless complainers talking about other people's children--

People unfortunately endanger their children in all kinds of ways. Its still their choice. Most discussions start with the logic or illogic of what a person is doing. Then, things often digress with people pointing fingers at how other folks are doing xyz with their kids .... "unsafe, irresponsible, whatever" the wagging fingers go. Instead of discussing the actual hazard and likely risk to all involved...saying "he can do x but oh, his poor, unsafe children" is a way of perching on moral high ground that people tread lightly around and about.

Here, the bottom line is that those of us talking about this matter aren't with these folks on their trip; further Lavenderbeard seems to have gone silent after submitting a controversial pic/ post. Perhaps Lavender just wanted to get some folks riled up...

I'm going to go make a hit on the recent post/poll on liferafts as that's a better place to have good discussion about the topic of liferafts.
The boat is is a a Benteau Idylle 13.5 meter yacht, 1985. It is about to set off for the Galapagos on Saturday. Having dear friends on this boat I have asked for opinions on the wisdom of the 'Captain's' actions in refusing the genuine offer of a lifeboat in favour of the dinghy conversion. Having received very good feedback from members of this forum, I and other friends have concluded that it is the choice of all concerned to decide for themselves whether to take part in this voyage which is intended to conclude in New Zealand. The children have had an amazing two years as cruisers and implicitly trust their parents to make the right decision on their behalf, let us hope and pray it is the right one.



Ultimately we are all masters of our own destiny.
__________________
lavenderbeard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2008, 10:30 PM   #12
Ensign
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 3
Default

The modified Dinghy, early version

Attached Images
File Type: jpg life_raft_side_view.jpg (4.7 KB, 40 views)
__________________

__________________
lavenderbeard is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Liferaft Advice Please! Exiles General Cruising Forum 0 02-11-2011 03:02 PM
Liferaft And Dinghy Wanted Mik4 Cruiser's Market 0 02-03-2009 06:01 PM
A Method To The Madness chiroeurope The Tavern | Welcome Aboard 2 06-22-2008 01:28 AM
8 Man Liferaft Lew on Harmony Cruiser's Market 0 07-13-2007 04:42 PM

Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

RV & Travel Trailer Communities

Our RV & Travel Trailer sites encompasses virtually all types of Recreational Vehicles, from brand-specific to general RV communities.

» More about our RV Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


All times are GMT. The time now is 06:40 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.0