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Old 02-14-2007, 03:06 AM   #15
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I read this post and those related with great interest.

I took note of what RT stated that mostly non-cruisers were taking part in the discussion to that point. It seems most with cruising experinace side with "not to arm".

As well I noted Lynx’s observation of US verses other than US citizens. Probably no where in the world other than the USA, do people believe in and defend the belief and right to bear arms, and defend oneself, family and property. Our country was founded on that belief and came about because of it. Maybe more guns are owned per capita than anywhere.

Some of the states have a "Make My Day Law", so named for the scene in the Clint Eastwood Dirty Harry movie. The law makes it legal to shoot somebody breaking into your home. The law came about because responsible citizens had enough of “pirate like behavior” forcible entry, robbing, raping, beatings, pilferage and plunder. The law does not make it legal to shoot somebody for ringing you door bell. Visitor or intruder, the intent and entry method is clearly different and identifiable.

dnelson perhaps missed my point about improvised weapons, their lethality, and effectiveness. If I were to build and use a flame thrower, or any other defensive device, the intent would be most serious; the result would eliminate the threat. A US gallon of gasoline has the same explosive power as 88 sticks of dynamite. Common agricultural fertilizer and some petroleum, was used to destroy the building in the Oklahoma City Bombing.

I agree with atavist on being properly trained, be it handling a weapon or improvising those of destruction. He is a Marine, I am a Soldier. I say “is”, not was, because once you are one, you never can go back to not being one. It’s like trying to forget how to ride a bicycle. The concept of building improvised weapons maybe radical. Thinking about it is pre-plannning. Executing it maybe an be an act of desperation, the last recourse; the same as aiming and pulling the trigger. I am not suggesting that is the correct solution. It is an alternative.

If one is being forcefully boarded, should victims offer intruders tea and biscuits while discussing their intentions? "Are you here for the T-shirts?" Should we wait for the rape or beatings to commence before pulling a shotgun?

Though Atavists likes his .45 caliber, “whipping pistol” his first choice is not to use it to shoot, but cold *bad word here* the bad guy. It fits the military doctrine of employing the minimum effective force required to accomplish the mission.

Improvised defensive measures need not be as radical as flame throwers, RPG’s or rail mounted, belt fed, machine guns, weapons of combat and banned everywhere. An aerosol can of anything flammable, hair spray, or cooking oil and a lighter makes a smaller blow torch at close range, effective enough. Nail boards on deck, or mono fishing line trip wires, could foil a petty thief’s attempt to steal your outboard while you sleep below. The trip wire doesn’t have to detonate anything, simply trip the intruder. The fall, the landing, the noise and commotion, will probably take care of itself.

Nail boards? Now that is mean, fighting dirty. You could place one tiny warning sign in the Navajo Language stating “Caution – watch your step – nail boards about the deck”. Or a large bi-lingual sign, "All Trespassers will be Shot". Signs? They know they are wrong by boarding. Bad guys take risks. They prefer easy targets (less risk), with high returns, at a minimum of effort. Targets of oppurtunity, easy prey.

Being pursued by an aggressive craft? Foul his prop. Deploy and drag small cables, medium ropes or nets with small bouys. Install a weak link in the tow lines so when they catch and start wrapping around the shaft, they break free, from your boat.

To Arm or Not to Arm? While unarmed freighters have been targeted by pirates, I have yet to hear of an incident of a pirate attack on a Naval Ship of war, even the smallest of Coast Guard vessels, and even though they have T-Shirts, Spirits, and Cigarettes aboard. Could the weapons aboard or the defensive posture have anything to do with it? There is a good case not to distribute "gifts" upon demand.

I have been in military ground convoys in foreign coutries. The American GI, is a rather friendly sort by nature, despite the fact they are trained to kill if needed and armed to the hilt. GI's will toss portions of there rations to the locals, especially children, as a gesture of caring and friendliness, and to those with less. Though the intentions are well meant, it doesn't take long to train others to become beggars, expect it, even demand it, and make it a way of life. Another good case not to distribute "gifts" on demand. Don't feed the animals!

I am on the fence on this issue, as many others. So why is it debated? There is no clear and definitive answer. The gun laws vary from country to country and even from state to state within the United States.

I am not pursuing the cruising life style to get into confrontations, scuffles, fist fights, or combat. I think being “Street Smart”, avoiding known problems and problem areas, is prudent advice. Everybody knows there is a bad area, in most cities, most anywhere. If you go looking for trouble, you will find it. If one goes crusing un-informed and ill-prepared the results likely will be less than intended, and worse than desired; much like taking on any other endevor in life.
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Old 02-14-2007, 05:38 AM   #16
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The part of this discussion that I find interesting is the attitude of the non-armed to the prospect of having the armed out there with them. Its not just on this board but others too. From my chair the pro-armed are often looked upon as "loose cannons" or marginalized in some way.

Statements such as needing a "flag" to signify if you are packing or not. Or worrying if your harbourmate is packing. The way I see it is anyone willing to shoot another person over an argument is just as likely to do harm in another way. The gun just makes it convenient.

Its a shame that you feel this way about us. 99% of us are good people with no intention of doing you any harm and a sense of responsibility regarding the weapons issue. Maybe this is a distinctly American way of thinking. Could also be that the current state of world affairs and US policies are influencing thoughts about its citizens. I don't think anyone is crazy for not carrying a weapon and I surely don't think any less of them. Its a personal choice, and correctly pursued I don't see why anyone would have a problem with it.

So if you see me in the future at some far flung anchorage feel free to stop by for a drink and a chat. I don't mind folks with different mindsets. Its a big world and we can all get along just fine. RT
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Old 02-14-2007, 05:38 AM   #17
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Na, I think inventing a flag is the perfect solution.

Let's hoist a couple of those on all the US military cruisers in the Med and the Gulf while we are at it.

Sarcasm intended.
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Old 02-14-2007, 06:42 AM   #18
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I agree with you Rob; most cruisers with weapons are good people with peaceful intentions who are discreet and even secretive about the weapon they carry. The decision to shoot, or to not shoot, for them, becomes a matter for personal conscience.

My rifle was consigned to the deep because of the need to declare or break the law. We did not want to break the law and we did not want the bureaucratic hassles associated with the carriage of weapons...and I did not want to be faced with the prospect of deciding whether to shoot or not.

My beef is with the in-your-face, Rambo styled urban warrior types with attitude. These are the people with whom I do not want to share any patch of sea, air, land....or milk bar.

David
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Old 02-14-2007, 06:58 AM   #19
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RT

No. Man kind has NEVER gotten along "just fine", EVER, in history. Be it food, water, land, oil, politics, religion, possesions, slavery, status, sex, greed, boredom, drunkeness, beliefs, opinions, resources, civil rights, dictatorships run amuck, goals of world domination, mental disorders of the person in power, the perfect solution, peer stupity, or what ever, man is like 10 wet cats in a bag, forever in disagreement over something.

I recall a statement from the time in uniform, circa late 1980's, "At any given time there are 28-32 fighting, shooting wars going on around the globe."

We wish for peace, at least semi-civil relations.

Even the best of marital relationships have differances and issues to resolve or arrive at compromise, sometime. On that note, this past week in our city, there was an evening news story dubed "The Salad Dressing Murder". Seems a 40 something old man stabbed his young 20 something live in girlfriend, over the fact that she served him the wrong salad dressing. He prefered Ranch and was served Italian. Go Figure! They were both drinking.

It's not the fact weapons are available, it's the state of mind of the person employing and when they may be appropriate. Stabbing, automatically one assumes a knife was used. You just did in the above story.

Improvised devices substitutes something else just as or more effective, than guns or knives. Using them does not change when to use them, or why to use them, or the consequences of doing so.

A baseball bat is legal. What one hits with it may not be. A baseball? Sure, that is acceptable. Others property, or people, now it becomes an issue.

I am way to hung up on the debate of "To Arm or Not to Arm", because my core belief is the right to bear arms and defend oneself. While I defend the right TO Arm, personally I lean towards NOT cruising with a gun aboard, because I don't need a gun to defend myself.

EDITED TO ADD:

I totally agree with Aussie's Statement:

We did not want to break the law and we did not want the bureaucratic hassles associated with the carriage of weapons..."

AND EDITED TO ADD:

RT, But yes I do understand your point and intent that we can get along, armed or not.

~ ~ ~

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New Stencils on the side of Naval Vessesls:

THE SURGEON GENERAL has determined this vessel is fully armed, locked and loaded. Demanding T-Shirts could blow your butt out of the water.

OSHA (**) now requires stencils under all anchors of ships 50 tons and larger:

CAUTION HARD HAT AREA!

Sail with one eye looking up.

AND Listen for the the Clanking of the Chain

** In case anybody does not know, OSHA is The Occupational Saftey and Health Act; An American set of Regulations Governing Safety in the Work Place.
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Old 02-14-2007, 08:18 AM   #20
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Do you think this would raise too many eyebrows with customs agents?

http://www.camo-store.com/auto_assau...at_shotgun.htm

Check Video
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Old 02-14-2007, 10:11 AM   #21
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Aqua Man,

I wasn't speaking for the world in general as I do believe that it will remain screwed up long after I am gone, likely until it comes to an end. I was referring to cruisers being able to get along. We certainly should, we have much in common and there is much mutual benefit in being as friendly and cordial as possible. I'm a believer in Karma and what goes around, comes around. RT
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Old 02-14-2007, 10:22 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by name='Converted Post'
Originally posted by Auzzee

My beef is with the in-your-face, Rambo styled urban warrior types with attitude. These are the people with whom I do not want to share any patch of sea, air, land....or milk bar.

David
I agree wholeheartedly. An instructor of mine years ago once stated "There is always someone bigger, tougher, faster and meaner than you are. The more you run your mouth the faster you will find him. Respect, humility and kindness will get you farther" I have no wish to hang out with Rambo either. RT
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Old 02-14-2007, 03:26 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by name='Converted Post'
Originally posted by Trim50

Do you think this would raise too many eyebrows with customs agents?

http://www.camo-store.com/auto_assau...at_shotgun.htm

Check Video
Ken, with that thing you wouldn't have to worry about customs agents, or even small armed invasion forces...
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Old 02-14-2007, 06:04 PM   #24
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I hear a lot of talk about having a gun at the ready when approaching the red sea, A while ago talking to a old sea dog who said, "Always carry a flair pistol" , He went on to tell about paiates tring to board his a few years back and how when a flair is fired into there boat ,He was carfull not to say to much but I could predict the outcome.

Graham
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Old 02-15-2007, 12:44 AM   #25
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There is an old salt on our dock who has never lived on land (he claims) and has sailed around the world multiple times in his life. He too feels that the flare gun is the only weapon you'll ever need.

Considering that he has never been wrong with advice that he has given me while refitting my boat, I would tend to believe he is probably right about the flare gun as well.

No matter how much I would prefer to carry a substantial weapon (and hoist one of those new flags), I also do not want to deal with the hassle it would present at each port.

Rohn makes a very realistic looking flare gun that I'm most likely going to purchase.

http://www.signal-flares.com/images/Pics/RG-56.JPG
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Old 02-15-2007, 11:11 AM   #26
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Bestlooking flair gun I have seen for a long time ,,The gent that told me the story regarding the flair showed me his ,looks like a mini shotgun he said he can drop a flair into a boat a 100 metres away but he told me that about 20 years ago he hit the side of a suspect boat with a magnesium flair and it splatered over the side of the suspect boat still burning he said they had one hell of a job puting it out before there boat caught fire he said they never worried hime after that, I wonder why!!
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Old 02-15-2007, 12:13 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by name='Converted Post'
Originally posted by Swagman

Hey Ho - this subject seems to constantly reappear and invariably is raised afresh by those planning to go, rather than those who have gone.

Practically, 100% of the guys we've met who've travelled far and wide and that's including many US nationals, see the sense in both NOT carrying arms and equally avioding spots where arms might be needed.
Just a bit of speculation here (and I am probably stating the obvious) but perhaps the difference between those who have been cruising, and those that haven't is a change in mindset. There is something that happens to you when you have been cruising for a while - the stress, and tendency to confront, seems to disappear. You also gain deep a respect for the sea, the people on her, and the countries you visit. (It is after all their bit of water you are using.) You learn to "get along" rather than try and force your way through. It seems to be a kind of mental epiphany that happens - and suddenly - there is light... (did I go all transcendental there?)
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Old 02-15-2007, 02:58 PM   #28
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Aquaman: "... a 40 something old man ..."??!?

Que paso? Mi amigo, tus palabras llevan mucho dolor y tristeza! Soy 48, y soy joven!!!
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