Go Back   Cruiser Log World Cruising & Sailing Forums > Cruising Forums > General Cruising Forum
Cruiser Wiki Click Here to Login

Join Cruiser Log Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 10-22-2007, 04:35 AM   #1
Lieutenant
 
duckwheat's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Home Port: Ballard
Vessel Name: VAGABON
Posts: 65
Default

Is there a place for a furling main sail on a cruising boat?

How many of you have had to deploy a drogue or a sail sock in extreme conditions?

Do you prefer the drogue or the sail sock?

Just a couple of more questions in the process of Educating Duckwheat. Thanks in advance.
__________________

__________________
Motivational Group Leader and Life Coach
duckwheat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2007, 05:32 AM   #2
Admiral
 
Nausikaa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,619
Default

Hi Duchwheat,

here are my, and I stress MY, opinions:

Is there a place for a furling main sail on a cruising boat?

I assume you mean some form of roller-furling.

Basically there are three types, the older rolling-boom type which has more-or-less been superceeded by other reefing methods. Then there are in-mast and in-boom reefing. Of the two, I would go for in-boom reefing as there is less weight aloft and the sail can always be taken down using the halyard even if the reefing system should fail.

How many of you have had to deploy a drogue or a sail sock in extreme conditions?

I have never had to deploy a drogue or sea anchor but favour the Jordan Series Drogue. The methodology behind it makes much sense.

Aye // Stephen
__________________

__________________
Yacht NAUSIKAA | Call Sign: 2AJH2




WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU DID SOMETHING FOR THE FIRST TIME?

www.nausikaa.org.uk

= Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Lithuania
Nausikaa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2007, 08:11 AM   #3
Admiral
 
MMNETSEA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,067
Default

Hi ducks,

Where do you find these questions !!! Like Stephen says - it depends !

The early furling main sails that furled in the mast had the potential to jam in the mast = panic.

The next "improvement" had a rod that turned just aft of the mast furling the sail on the rod - which also tended to jam when furling in strong winds = panic

In-boom furlers are/were ok on small boats - but as soon as this system was tried on big yachts the size of the boom had to be increased giving all sorts of problems.

The challenge of furling the main is faced with a couple of design issues; 1. Sails to be efficient are cut to provide lift like the wing of an aircraft - which means that when you are furling - the central part of the sail bunches up as more and more sail is wound onto the furling shaft;

2. Only very special battens can be rolled up with the sail - and as many modern sails depend on battens to provide shape - you cannot roll them into the mast.

Nowadays, many cruisers opt for simple "Lazy Jack Reefing' which can easily be made up and repaired) with some blocks and some line. 'Therapy' in an earlier topic linked us to :- http://www.ukhalsey.com/sails/cradledetail...adledetails.asp

This site shows the other development that improved on lazy jacks by adding a pocket into which the main could be dropped - it also doubles as a sail cover when closed.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I did some trials with drogues when I got a multihull - cannot remember the name - but the best was about 6ft in diameter, shaped like half a soccer ball.

History has shown that the efficient and timely use of drogues have been responsible for keeping the boat into the wind and/or waves - averting beam-on situations. In the case of multihulls - the drogue is deployed to slow the boat down and prevent pitchpoling.

The caveat is that if a drogue is be part of the boats safety equipment it must be readily available with all of of its bits attached, and equally important the crew must know how it should be deployed - early better than later. Some training and testing would not be wasted.

keep the ????s coming

Richard
__________________
MMNETSEA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2007, 12:37 PM   #4
Admiral
 
JeanneP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,098
Default

Duckwheat, what do you mean by a sail sock? *One of those long tubes run up the forestay to douse the jib? *Or the spinnaker? *
__________________
In 1986 we went cruising for a few years. After 20 years and 50+ countries and several oceans, we are STILL "cruising for a few years".

SY WATERMELON |
MV WATERMELON (New) | Cruiser's Dictionary, free ebook

= Cruiser's Dictionary, North America,
JeanneP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2007, 02:16 PM   #5
Lieutenant
 
duckwheat's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Home Port: Ballard
Vessel Name: VAGABON
Posts: 65
Default

The questions come up after reading some info or watching the furling main on another SV in the San Juan's. I meant Sea Anchor, not sail sock.

I am just learning from all of you. When I have a question just post. This is pretty amazing site where you have tutors spread out around the world.

I am in the middle of reading N. Calders Diesel engine care and feeding. I am going to brush up on the electrical systems next.

What is a good source for of learning how to use a sextant? Books, courses?

Pondering in the Potato state

Duckwheat
__________________
Motivational Group Leader and Life Coach
duckwheat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2007, 06:54 PM   #6
Admiral
 
Nausikaa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,619
Default

Hi again Duckwheat!

I am just learning from all of you. When I have a question just post

Just go ahead and keep posting. This might be a learning experience for you but many others will also gain by it.

This is pretty amazing site where you have tutors spread out around the world.

I can but agree and suggest that this, I believe, is one of the main strengths of this forum

I am in the middle of reading N. Calders Diesel engine care and feeding. I am going to brush up on the electrical systems next.

Nigel Calder's book is as good as it gets. Good choice!

What is a good source for of learning how to use a sextant? Books, courses?

The hardest question today. The theory behind the use of the sextant is easily learnt from books. The art of astro-nav is not so easily learnt unless you have a special aptitude for maths. Of course one can learn to take and work out sights by using the "monkey see - monkey do" method. By this I mean one can work out sights by doing what one is told to do rather than understanding the underlying principles.

Using a sextant rerquires a bit of practise. It is soon learnt and there is nothing mystical about it. The important thing is to practise before heading off into the wide blue yonder and relying on your astronav skills.

Try reading up about the sextant and the theory of astronav. If you get stuck, post another question and I will try to help. A word to the wise though: forget the moon. It is so close to Earth that the altitude and, above all, hour angle changes so rapidly that you need to be pretty good and sharp at taking the time to get good position lines from it. to begin with, look to the sun and later to the stars and planets.

Pondering in the Potato state

Now, I spent years at sea as a professional navigator but I admit to not knowing which is the potato state. Enlighten me please!

Aye // Stephen
__________________
Yacht NAUSIKAA | Call Sign: 2AJH2




WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU DID SOMETHING FOR THE FIRST TIME?

www.nausikaa.org.uk

= Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Lithuania
Nausikaa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2007, 07:31 PM   #7
Rear Admiral
 
imagine2frolic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 396
Default

Idaho potatoes?????????????????????????
__________________
imagine2frolic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2007, 10:09 PM   #8
Admiral
 
MMNETSEA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,067
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by imagine2frolic View Post
Idaho potatoes?????????????????????????
Is this the variety used for making Vodka ? Stolen from the Russians ?
__________________
MMNETSEA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2007, 12:52 AM   #9
Admiral
 
Auzzee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Home Port: Darwin
Vessel Name: Sandettie
Posts: 1,917
Default

See how much we can learn from this site?

Is an Idaho potato a variety like King Edward?

I like spuds!

David.
__________________
"if at first you don't succeed....Redefine success"!


Auzzee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2007, 03:27 AM   #10
Lieutenant
 
duckwheat's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Home Port: Ballard
Vessel Name: VAGABON
Posts: 65
Default

Idaho is the King of Potatoes. Auzzie don't try one. You will turn your nose up at any other kind of potato. I live in Boise, the capitol

Thanks again.

DW
__________________
Motivational Group Leader and Life Coach
duckwheat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2007, 04:49 AM   #11
Admiral
 
MMNETSEA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,067
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by duckwheat View Post
Idaho is the King of Potatoes. Auzzie don't try one. You will turn your nose up at any other kind of potato. I live in Boise, the capitol

Thanks again.

DW
What are they like when cut into fingers fried in lard served with fried cod sprinkled with malt vinegar and sea salt wrapped in newspaper and devoured with gusto then washed down with a cold lager???

Yum!!
__________________
MMNETSEA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2007, 01:48 PM   #12
Rear Admiral
 
imagine2frolic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 396
Default

If ever you get the chance to try a purple potato from Chile they are a treat....
__________________
imagine2frolic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2007, 06:03 AM   #14
Ensign
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2
Default

Sorry for this really ignorant question but I am hoping one of you knowledgeable sailors will be able to help.

When writing about a cabin and a fo'c'sle can they be one and the same thing or must a cabin be referred to as just that?

Thank you very much in advance!

(and I can spell but I didn't check my sign on name before I hit enter )
__________________
farewellandadie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2007, 07:18 AM   #15
Admiral
 
MMNETSEA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,067
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by farewellandadie View Post
Sorry for this really ignorant question

When writing about a cabin and a fo'c'sle can they be one and the same thing or must a cabin be referred to as just that?

Thank you very much in advance!

(and I can spell but I didn't check my sign on name before I hit enter )
No Question can be ignorant - the answers certainly :- Linda Ronstadt maybe says it for you :-Click image for larger version

Name:	Adieu_False_Heart.jpg
Views:	34
Size:	92.2 KB
ID:	234

A cabin is usually a part of a yacht/ship where people can bunk down and sleep - a cabin can be an aft cabin, a forward cabin or sometimes referred to as a saloon cabin (a cabin amidships)

The "fo'c'sle" or forecastle is right at the forward part of a ship (or very large yacht) It can be slept in when "V" berth bunks are provided - in this instance it might be referred to as the forward cabin - not the forecastle.

If you go to our Language of the Sea - where terms like this are defined :-

FORECASTLE -

"That part of the upper deck forward of the foremast. Also, the forward part of the vessel under the deck."

CABIN -

"A compartment for passengers and crew"
__________________
MMNETSEA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2007, 03:07 PM   #16
Lieutenant
 
duckwheat's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Home Port: Ballard
Vessel Name: VAGABON
Posts: 65
Default

I read the History noted by Auzee. It raises several issues. The commercial guy reported using a warp. I have not heard of that. Do you guys have experience with warps. The other mentioned the problem of chafe on the lines securing a sea anchor or drogue.

Has anyone seen the chain bridle mentioned in the 2005 post?

Duckwheat
__________________
Motivational Group Leader and Life Coach
duckwheat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2007, 01:05 AM   #17
Ensign
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MMNETSEA View Post
No Question can be ignorant - the answers certainly :- Linda Ronstadt maybe says it for you :-Attachment 234

A cabin is usually a part of a yacht/ship where people can bunk down and sleep - a cabin can be an aft cabin, a forward cabin or sometimes referred to as a saloon cabin (a cabin amidships)

The "fo'c'sle" or forecastle is right at the forward part of a ship (or very large yacht) It can be slept in when "V" berth bunks are provided - in this instance it might be referred to as the forward cabin - not the forecastle.

If you go to our Language of the Sea - where terms like this are defined :-

FORECASTLE -

"That part of the upper deck forward of the foremast. Also, the forward part of the vessel under the deck."

CABIN -

"A compartment for passengers and crew"
Thank you so much! That's really helpful and very kind of you to answer so quickly.
__________________
farewellandadie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2007, 02:14 AM   #18
Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 48
Default

The question of when and how and what kind of drogue to deploy is a varied one and depends to the largest degree on the nature of your ship and the conditions facing it. For myself, on a 54' monohull fin keel, skeg/rudder fibreglass cruiser of about 55k displacement, I found that in life threatening seas, a drogue is essential. However, *most* commercial drogues aren't worth a damn in a blow. If you were to do a survey amongst heavy weather sailors they will most likely tell you that this or that commercial drogue did just fine for a few hours, before it disintegrated or similar.

I used to deploy a large diameter line from two stern cleats so as to put the bight out behind me such that it was on one side of the threatening waves while I was on the the other. This distance will, of course, vary depending on the nature and size of the seas. When things get *really* bad, I'm one of those that would rather run than fight i.e. forget about heaving to, or tossing a drogue off the bow (that is inviting disaster), I turn around and run (assuming sea room) and try to keep my speed such that I can manuever down the face of the waves. The drogue off the stern keeps it from slewing off sideways when either lifted or whacked by a following sea and causeing me to broach which would then result in a roll, and major diaster. keeping your tail straight to the seas is a *good * thing assuming your ship is properly designed for the deep blue in the first place. Some of these new ultra deep sugar scooped coastal rigs are going to be a real problem.

One thing to keep in mind, is that if you do try a commercial drogue, make sure you have a line strong enough to hold it, and cleats strong enough to hold the line Aft reinforced bits are really the way to go there, tho you almost never see them on today's production boats. Secondly, your enemy is line chafe where it comes off the cleat and over the rail. You need this whole thing rigged up in advance. Trying to rig proper chafe gear on a heaving deck, with waves towering above your head, the boat nearly out of control, and pitch black screaming darkness around you is NOT the time .

Btw, one of the best most durable/effective, and longest lasting drogues I ever saw was home made from a small import car's tire, painted with one of those elastic paints yellow, and simply tied with 1" poly line (it floats so you don't have to worry about fouling your own prop). The line stored inside the tire which was set on a hook in the lazarette ready for yeomans duty as an emergency fender, and /or lifesaving drogue. Didn't cost much either and worked just fine.

Now there ARE times when you might deploy a drogue for other reasons, no power, can't get sail to draw and drifting the WRONG way...a drogue or sea anchor off the bow will slow you down assuming its not the current causing you to drift , or if you're singlehanding and just want to sit where you are for a bit and figure something out etc.

I'll assume there are other peeps on this board that successfully used a commercial rig and hopefully they'll chime in.

seer

Quote:
Originally Posted by duckwheat View Post
The questions come up after reading some info or watching the furling main on another SV in the San Juan's. I meant Sea Anchor, not sail sock.

I am just learning from all of you. When I have a question just post. This is pretty amazing site where you have tutors spread out around the world.

I am in the middle of reading N. Calders Diesel engine care and feeding. I am going to brush up on the electrical systems next.

What is a good source for of learning how to use a sextant? Books, courses?

Pondering in the Potato state

Duckwheat
__________________
Seeratlas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2007, 03:17 AM   #19
Admiral
 
Auzzee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Home Port: Darwin
Vessel Name: Sandettie
Posts: 1,917
Default

Hi Seer,

I defer to your obvious depth of experience of heavy weather sailing, but would ask for clarification of two points. First, at what point do you determine seas to have reached a 'life threatening' state and second, when running away in heavy conditions, particularly as a singlehander in a largish boat with a fin keel, how long do you believe you can effectively helm the craft before you become the major danger to the ship's safety?

Before buying my 'solid' seabrake drogue, I researched the whole question quite thoroughly. I must say that few people were specifically critical of commercial drogues (although unfamiliarity with their deployment caused some critical chafing issues) and there is a great body of positive evidence regarding the use of these devices (which must be made to perform to an international standard); many chose to stream lines from the stern and many made their own, such as the series drogue, from established and tested patterns.

Having read a few disaster stories, I would hesitate to place my vessel under the partial control of a towed car tyre as I fear the difference between theory and practice could be wide indeed.

My experience with deploying a drogue is limited to testing my seabrake in offshore conditions of 20kts of trade winds over a relatively shallow bottom to produce unexpectedly large, though predictably consistent waves. The holding power is awesome. I wonder how difficult it would be to control the release of an efficient drogue in seriously heavy conditions....the potential for damage to the vessel and personal injury would always cause me to think twice before setting the drogue.

Welcome to the forum, and I look forward to hearing more from you in the future. It is always nice to hear from sailors who are out there 'doing' it.

Best wishes

David.
__________________
"if at first you don't succeed....Redefine success"!


Auzzee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2007, 03:22 AM   #20
Admiral
 
Nausikaa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,619
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeratlas View Post
Btw, one of the best most durable/effective, and longest lasting drogues I ever saw was home made from a small import car's tire, painted with one of those elastic paints yellow, and simply tied with 1" poly line (it floats so you don't have to worry about fouling your own prop).

seer
The tyre may work well as a drogue (I don't know as I have never tried using a tyre for this purpose) but a word of caustion about polypropolene lines. Yes, they do float but all boats, and even big ships, I have sailed in have tendency to lift their props out of the water when the going gets tough. There is the inevitible sea-saw motion so I would say that deploying polyprop ropes is no guarantee for not getting a fouled prop.

Aye // Stephen
__________________

__________________
Yacht NAUSIKAA | Call Sign: 2AJH2




WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU DID SOMETHING FOR THE FIRST TIME?

www.nausikaa.org.uk

= Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Lithuania
Nausikaa is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Which Boat To Sail FinalFantasea General Cruising Forum 6 11-06-2009 02:00 AM
Renting A Sail Boat Roserita General Cruising Forum 1 12-14-2007 01:47 PM
Sail Boat Insurance Trim50 General Cruising Forum 20 07-31-2007 06:11 PM
Boat selection Questions - Circumnavigation csiunatc General Cruising Forum 16 08-13-2006 07:32 AM
A few boat questions Bajamas General Cruising Forum 9 03-24-2006 09:56 PM

Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

RV & Travel Trailer Communities

Our RV & Travel Trailer sites encompasses virtually all types of Recreational Vehicles, from brand-specific to general RV communities.

» More about our RV Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


All times are GMT. The time now is 06:34 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.0
×