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Old 10-22-2007, 04:35 AM   #1
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Is there a place for a furling main sail on a cruising boat?

How many of you have had to deploy a drogue or a sail sock in extreme conditions?

Do you prefer the drogue or the sail sock?

Just a couple of more questions in the process of Educating Duckwheat. Thanks in advance.
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Old 10-22-2007, 05:32 AM   #2
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Hi Duchwheat,

here are my, and I stress MY, opinions:

Is there a place for a furling main sail on a cruising boat?

I assume you mean some form of roller-furling.

Basically there are three types, the older rolling-boom type which has more-or-less been superceeded by other reefing methods. Then there are in-mast and in-boom reefing. Of the two, I would go for in-boom reefing as there is less weight aloft and the sail can always be taken down using the halyard even if the reefing system should fail.

How many of you have had to deploy a drogue or a sail sock in extreme conditions?

I have never had to deploy a drogue or sea anchor but favour the Jordan Series Drogue. The methodology behind it makes much sense.

Aye // Stephen
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Old 10-22-2007, 08:11 AM   #3
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Hi ducks,

Where do you find these questions !!! Like Stephen says - it depends !

The early furling main sails that furled in the mast had the potential to jam in the mast = panic.

The next "improvement" had a rod that turned just aft of the mast furling the sail on the rod - which also tended to jam when furling in strong winds = panic

In-boom furlers are/were ok on small boats - but as soon as this system was tried on big yachts the size of the boom had to be increased giving all sorts of problems.

The challenge of furling the main is faced with a couple of design issues; 1. Sails to be efficient are cut to provide lift like the wing of an aircraft - which means that when you are furling - the central part of the sail bunches up as more and more sail is wound onto the furling shaft;

2. Only very special battens can be rolled up with the sail - and as many modern sails depend on battens to provide shape - you cannot roll them into the mast.

Nowadays, many cruisers opt for simple "Lazy Jack Reefing' which can easily be made up and repaired) with some blocks and some line. 'Therapy' in an earlier topic linked us to :- http://www.ukhalsey.com/sails/cradledetail...adledetails.asp

This site shows the other development that improved on lazy jacks by adding a pocket into which the main could be dropped - it also doubles as a sail cover when closed.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I did some trials with drogues when I got a multihull - cannot remember the name - but the best was about 6ft in diameter, shaped like half a soccer ball.

History has shown that the efficient and timely use of drogues have been responsible for keeping the boat into the wind and/or waves - averting beam-on situations. In the case of multihulls - the drogue is deployed to slow the boat down and prevent pitchpoling.

The caveat is that if a drogue is be part of the boats safety equipment it must be readily available with all of of its bits attached, and equally important the crew must know how it should be deployed - early better than later. Some training and testing would not be wasted.

keep the ????s coming

Richard
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Old 10-22-2007, 12:37 PM   #4
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Duckwheat, what do you mean by a sail sock? *One of those long tubes run up the forestay to douse the jib? *Or the spinnaker? *
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Old 10-22-2007, 02:16 PM   #5
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The questions come up after reading some info or watching the furling main on another SV in the San Juan's. I meant Sea Anchor, not sail sock.

I am just learning from all of you. When I have a question just post. This is pretty amazing site where you have tutors spread out around the world.

I am in the middle of reading N. Calders Diesel engine care and feeding. I am going to brush up on the electrical systems next.

What is a good source for of learning how to use a sextant? Books, courses?

Pondering in the Potato state

Duckwheat
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Old 10-22-2007, 06:54 PM   #6
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Hi again Duckwheat!

I am just learning from all of you. When I have a question just post

Just go ahead and keep posting. This might be a learning experience for you but many others will also gain by it.

This is pretty amazing site where you have tutors spread out around the world.

I can but agree and suggest that this, I believe, is one of the main strengths of this forum

I am in the middle of reading N. Calders Diesel engine care and feeding. I am going to brush up on the electrical systems next.

Nigel Calder's book is as good as it gets. Good choice!

What is a good source for of learning how to use a sextant? Books, courses?

The hardest question today. The theory behind the use of the sextant is easily learnt from books. The art of astro-nav is not so easily learnt unless you have a special aptitude for maths. Of course one can learn to take and work out sights by using the "monkey see - monkey do" method. By this I mean one can work out sights by doing what one is told to do rather than understanding the underlying principles.

Using a sextant rerquires a bit of practise. It is soon learnt and there is nothing mystical about it. The important thing is to practise before heading off into the wide blue yonder and relying on your astronav skills.

Try reading up about the sextant and the theory of astronav. If you get stuck, post another question and I will try to help. A word to the wise though: forget the moon. It is so close to Earth that the altitude and, above all, hour angle changes so rapidly that you need to be pretty good and sharp at taking the time to get good position lines from it. to begin with, look to the sun and later to the stars and planets.

Pondering in the Potato state

Now, I spent years at sea as a professional navigator but I admit to not knowing which is the potato state. Enlighten me please!

Aye // Stephen
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Old 10-22-2007, 07:31 PM   #7
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Idaho potatoes?????????????????????????
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Old 10-22-2007, 10:09 PM   #8
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Idaho potatoes?????????????????????????
Is this the variety used for making Vodka ? Stolen from the Russians ?
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Old 10-23-2007, 12:52 AM   #9
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See how much we can learn from this site?

Is an Idaho potato a variety like King Edward?

I like spuds!

David.
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Old 10-23-2007, 03:27 AM   #10
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Idaho is the King of Potatoes. Auzzie don't try one. You will turn your nose up at any other kind of potato. I live in Boise, the capitol

Thanks again.

DW
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Old 10-23-2007, 04:49 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by duckwheat View Post
Idaho is the King of Potatoes. Auzzie don't try one. You will turn your nose up at any other kind of potato. I live in Boise, the capitol

Thanks again.

DW
What are they like when cut into fingers fried in lard served with fried cod sprinkled with malt vinegar and sea salt wrapped in newspaper and devoured with gusto then washed down with a cold lager???

Yum!!
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Old 10-23-2007, 01:48 PM   #12
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If ever you get the chance to try a purple potato from Chile they are a treat....
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Old 10-24-2007, 06:03 AM   #14
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Sorry for this really ignorant question but I am hoping one of you knowledgeable sailors will be able to help.

When writing about a cabin and a fo'c'sle can they be one and the same thing or must a cabin be referred to as just that?

Thank you very much in advance!

(and I can spell but I didn't check my sign on name before I hit enter )
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Old 10-24-2007, 07:18 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by farewellandadie View Post
Sorry for this really ignorant question

When writing about a cabin and a fo'c'sle can they be one and the same thing or must a cabin be referred to as just that?

Thank you very much in advance!

(and I can spell but I didn't check my sign on name before I hit enter )
No Question can be ignorant - the answers certainly :- Linda Ronstadt maybe says it for you :-Click image for larger version

Name:	Adieu_False_Heart.jpg
Views:	34
Size:	92.2 KB
ID:	234

A cabin is usually a part of a yacht/ship where people can bunk down and sleep - a cabin can be an aft cabin, a forward cabin or sometimes referred to as a saloon cabin (a cabin amidships)

The "fo'c'sle" or forecastle is right at the forward part of a ship (or very large yacht) It can be slept in when "V" berth bunks are provided - in this instance it might be referred to as the forward cabin - not the forecastle.

If you go to our Language of the Sea - where terms like this are defined :-

FORECASTLE -

"That part of the upper deck forward of the foremast. Also, the forward part of the vessel under the deck."

CABIN -

"A compartment for passengers and crew"
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Old 10-24-2007, 03:07 PM   #16
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I read the History noted by Auzee. It raises several issues. The commercial guy reported using a warp. I have not heard of that. Do you guys have experience with warps. The other mentioned the problem of chafe on the lines securing a sea anchor or drogue.

Has anyone seen the chain bridle mentioned in the 2005 post?

Duckwheat
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Old 10-25-2007, 01:05 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MMNETSEA View Post
No Question can be ignorant - the answers certainly :- Linda Ronstadt maybe says it for you :-Attachment 234

A cabin is usually a part of a yacht/ship where people can bunk down and sleep - a cabin can be an aft cabin, a forward cabin or sometimes referred to as a saloon cabin (a cabin amidships)

The "fo'c'sle" or forecastle is right at the forward part of a ship (or very large yacht) It can be slept in when "V" berth bunks are provided - in this instance it might be referred to as the forward cabin - not the forecastle.

If you go to our Language of the Sea - where terms like this are defined :-

FORECASTLE -

"That part of the upper deck forward of the foremast. Also, the forward part of the vessel under the deck."

CABIN -

"A compartment for passengers and crew"
Thank you so much! That's really helpful and very kind of you to answer so quickly.
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Old 11-08-2007, 02:14 AM   #18
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The question of when and how and what kind of drogue to deploy is a varied one and depends to the largest degree on the nature of your ship and the conditions facing it. For myself, on a 54' monohull fin keel, skeg/rudder fibreglass cruiser of about 55k displacement, I found that in life threatening seas, a drogue is essential. However, *most* commercial drogues aren't worth a damn in a blow. If you were to do a survey amongst heavy weather sailors they will most likely tell you that this or that commercial drogue did just fine for a few hours, before it disintegrated or similar.

I used to deploy a large diameter line from two stern cleats so as to put the bight out behind me such that it was on one side of the threatening waves while I was on the the other. This distance will, of course, vary depending on the nature and size of the seas. When things get *really* bad, I'm one of those that would rather run than fight i.e. forget about heaving to, or tossing a drogue off the bow (that is inviting disaster), I turn around and run (assuming sea room) and try to keep my speed such that I can manuever down the face of the waves. The drogue off the stern keeps it from slewing off sideways when either lifted or whacked by a following sea and causeing me to broach which would then result in a roll, and major diaster. keeping your tail straight to the seas is a *good * thing assuming your ship is properly designed for the deep blue in the first place. Some of these new ultra deep sugar scooped coastal rigs are going to be a real problem.

One thing to keep in mind, is that if you do try a commercial drogue, make sure you have a line strong enough to hold it, and cleats strong enough to hold the line Aft reinforced bits are really the way to go there, tho you almost never see them on today's production boats. Secondly, your enemy is line chafe where it comes off the cleat and over the rail. You need this whole thing rigged up in advance. Trying to rig proper chafe gear on a heaving deck, with waves towering above your head, the boat nearly out of control, and pitch black screaming darkness around you is NOT the time .

Btw, one of the best most durable/effective, and longest lasting drogues I ever saw was home made from a small import car's tire, painted with one of those elastic paints yellow, and simply tied with 1" poly line (it floats so you don't have to worry about fouling your own prop). The line stored inside the tire which was set on a hook in the lazarette ready for yeomans duty as an emergency fender, and /or lifesaving drogue. Didn't cost much either and worked just fine.

Now there ARE times when you might deploy a drogue for other reasons, no power, can't get sail to draw and drifting the WRONG way...a drogue or sea anchor off the bow will slow you down assuming its not the current causing you to drift , or if you're singlehanding and just want to sit where you are for a bit and figure something out etc.

I'll assume there are other peeps on this board that successfully used a commercial rig and hopefully they'll chime in.

seer

Quote:
Originally Posted by duckwheat View Post
The questions come up after reading some info or watching the furling main on another SV in the San Juan's. I meant Sea Anchor, not sail sock.

I am just learning from all of you. When I have a question just post. This is pretty amazing site where you have tutors spread out around the world.

I am in the middle of reading N. Calders Diesel engine care and feeding. I am going to brush up on the electrical systems next.

What is a good source for of learning how to use a sextant? Books, courses?

Pondering in the Potato state

Duckwheat
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Old 11-08-2007, 03:17 AM   #19
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Hi Seer,

I defer to your obvious depth of experience of heavy weather sailing, but would ask for clarification of two points. First, at what point do you determine seas to have reached a 'life threatening' state and second, when running away in heavy conditions, particularly as a singlehander in a largish boat with a fin keel, how long do you believe you can effectively helm the craft before you become the major danger to the ship's safety?

Before buying my 'solid' seabrake drogue, I researched the whole question quite thoroughly. I must say that few people were specifically critical of commercial drogues (although unfamiliarity with their deployment caused some critical chafing issues) and there is a great body of positive evidence regarding the use of these devices (which must be made to perform to an international standard); many chose to stream lines from the stern and many made their own, such as the series drogue, from established and tested patterns.

Having read a few disaster stories, I would hesitate to place my vessel under the partial control of a towed car tyre as I fear the difference between theory and practice could be wide indeed.

My experience with deploying a drogue is limited to testing my seabrake in offshore conditions of 20kts of trade winds over a relatively shallow bottom to produce unexpectedly large, though predictably consistent waves. The holding power is awesome. I wonder how difficult it would be to control the release of an efficient drogue in seriously heavy conditions....the potential for damage to the vessel and personal injury would always cause me to think twice before setting the drogue.

Welcome to the forum, and I look forward to hearing more from you in the future. It is always nice to hear from sailors who are out there 'doing' it.

Best wishes

David.
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Old 11-08-2007, 03:22 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeratlas View Post
Btw, one of the best most durable/effective, and longest lasting drogues I ever saw was home made from a small import car's tire, painted with one of those elastic paints yellow, and simply tied with 1" poly line (it floats so you don't have to worry about fouling your own prop).

seer
The tyre may work well as a drogue (I don't know as I have never tried using a tyre for this purpose) but a word of caustion about polypropolene lines. Yes, they do float but all boats, and even big ships, I have sailed in have tendency to lift their props out of the water when the going gets tough. There is the inevitible sea-saw motion so I would say that deploying polyprop ropes is no guarantee for not getting a fouled prop.

Aye // Stephen
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