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Old 07-02-2011, 01:44 PM   #1
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Hi all. Big subject this one. I'm raising it so we can all make better & well informed choices in the future. I believe many others in these 'forums' can gain valuable information to assist them in making a more educated decission as to the yacht type & size to choose in order to 'safely' go cruising & achieve maximum enjoyment for their dollars spent without undo compromising their safety at sea.

The 'average' (which there isn't)person looking at - going cruising - in these forums - seems to be looking at 35' to 45' either monohull or multihull. Whilst I fully appreciate the differences in the 'payload' capacity between the two hull shapes, I know that 'over-loading' can be very risky especially in adverse conditions - which will happen to everyone that is not tied to the warf, whichever hull style is chosen. ie - when the SHTF. Over-loaded cruising vessels can be rather dangerous for many reasons which I'll let others go into. My desire here is to establish what everyone in 'forums' thinks 'payload' should consist of & what said 'payload' is consists of.

Now, taking a 'dry boat' at the warf, what items should you take on-board - considering safety at sea - for 4 people for a 6 to 10 week cruise at sea with no likely safe port to call into. I've taken for granted that no genuine, realistic cruiser would not re-evaluate for themselves every bit of gear choice previously made & evaluate it for themselves & their needs & safety.

I've raced several - Sydney to Hobarts & others races oveer 35 years, on as small as a S&S 34' with 6 crew & all the Cat 1 safety gear plus food, fuel, water & personal gear - - & we've still placed in the top 5 overall on handicap, in most cases. I've looked at several multihull designs as well & as Richard has mentioned - there's not much information as to 'payload' capacity being offered by either designer or seller. Only Schionning designs state 'payload' in their primary statistics while 3 other designers I've contacted will not give out that information. I don't think very much of their attitude - at all !! I've done some cursory weight figures & can't get much under 2600 kilos (5700 lbs) & easily get to 3000 kilos (6600 lbs) which loaded onto a multihull under 60' @ $1.5mil would kill it dead in the water & make it quite un-seaworthy! Equally a monohull would be somewhat affected especially one under 40' to some degree & likewise compromise seaworthiness & thus safety. IMHO

The weights I've tried to cover include; engine(s), tanks, fuel, etc - water, tanks (& water-maker), pumps - 4 people & all their gear - food & galley requirements, cooking fuel & containers - fire extinguishers (3 off) - anchors (3 off) & chains & rodes (& bridals if required) including warf lines & fenders, sea anchors & drogues (incl all lines required) - liferaft & all safety gear (to Cat 1 - to international ocean going standards - which I would NOT go to sea without, ever)- batteries, solar panels, wind generator, wiring, radar, radios, hard-copy charts & covers, auto-pilot(s), additional self-stearing equipment (either air or water) - dinghy(s), o/board(s) - sails, covers, bimini's (fixed or othewise, fridge &/or freezers if required (as they are in the tropics) IMHO

I'll be darned if I can get the total weight much under 3000ks(6600lbs) & I'm sure I've left out several important items.

If others in 'forums' think this is a worthwhile subject, lets all make constructive, informative comment. If not then someone (moderators or others) knock it on the head.

Ciao for now, james - - do check out my 'profile' before shooting the messanger boy, Please.
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Old 07-03-2011, 05:00 AM   #2
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So that we are all on the same page - check here for definitions regarding this topic :- C L I C K

Also take on board the differences between the carrying capacity of Displacement vs Semi-displacement vs Planing hulls. Could be appropriate to concentrate on Cruising boats.
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Old 07-04-2011, 07:48 AM   #3
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So that we are all on the same page - check here for definitions regarding this topic :- C L I C K

Also take on board the differences between the carrying capacity of Displacement vs Semi-displacement vs Planing hulls. Could be appropriate to concentrate on Cruising boats.
Thanks Richard. What with my dyslexia - I got 1/2 as far as the first subject on the first line. However I thought I did express that I was referring to cruising yachts both monohull & multihull so I thank you for bringing that to everyone's attention. Am looking at a 40' yacht to go cruising/racing (with all the cruising gear put on the warf - just to get better performance than my handicap) & can't seem to get the added weight under 2000kgs without leaving my - vodka & coke on ice back on the warf - which is not a considered option - ha ha - but only 1/2 a joke - some creature-comforts are an absolute necessity, IMHO Back to you. Ciao, james

PS Did I do it 'correctly' this time/way????
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Old 07-04-2011, 10:48 AM   #4
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Thanks Richard. What with my dyslexia - I got 1/2 as far as the first subject on the first line. However I thought I did express that I was referring to cruising yachts both monohull & multihull so I thank you for bringing that to everyone's attention. Am looking at a 40' yacht to go cruising/racing (with all the cruising gear put on the warf - just to get better performance than my handicap) & can't seem to get the added weight under 2000kgs without leaving my - vodka & coke on ice back on the warf - which is not a considered option - ha ha - but only 1/2 a joke - some creature-comforts are an absolute necessity, IMHO Back to you. Ciao, james

PS Did I do it 'correctly' this time/way????
Before adding another category ( in this case cruiser/racer and handicaps) can we stick to Monohulls and Multihulls that come within the term Cruiser. Where the boat is being used to cruise away from land, where it is loaded with the necessary equipment, stores and provisions to be self-sufficient for extended passage.

Once we get into the subject of boats entering races, where they leave the anchors, chain and anything else on the dock - this is another area to discuss.
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Old 07-04-2011, 08:23 PM   #5
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Catamaran...keep it light. Twin engines (Perkins M20, 225 lbs each) means a minimal amount of spares (rob parts from one engine). Basically impellers, belts and filters. 1 spare bilge pump, electrical connectors and some wire, blocks, winch rebuild kit, rebuild kits for critical pumps and water softener. Spare autopilot, some plumbing pieces and lights. Thats about it. I minimize number of books to carry (must fit into small bookcase), type and number of pots and pans, dishes, etc. I go way too heavy on anchors and rode and tools, but acceptable for the performance trade off. 1 spare mainsail and no others. My philosophy is to always be able to get to someplace and then make the repairs. I carry the things necessary to do that. I sail with 25 gallons of water and rely on the water maker to keep up with demand. My Lagoon 37 weighs in under 11,000 lbs fully loaded for cruising, a few pounds less than the design weight. Probably ideal performance weight for a Lagoon of this size but difficult to do for most people.

Adding 1,000 lbs of weight to a 10,000 lbs cat is adding 10%. Adding 1,000 lbs of weight to a 40,000 lbs mono-hull is insignificant. A cat has the space to carry a lot of stuff but not the weight carrying capacity vs the opposite for the mono-hull.
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Old 07-05-2011, 10:26 AM   #6
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Catamaran...keep it light. Twin engines (Perkins M20, 225 lbs each) means a minimal amount of spares (rob parts from one engine). Basically impellers, belts and filters. 1 spare bilge pump, electrical connectors and some wire, blocks, winch rebuild kit, rebuild kits for critical pumps and water softener. Spare autopilot, some plumbing pieces and lights. Thats about it. I minimize number of books to carry (must fit into small bookcase), type and number of pots and pans, dishes, etc. I go way too heavy on anchors and rode and tools, but acceptable for the performance trade off. 1 spare mainsail and no others. My philosophy is to always be able to get to someplace and then make the repairs. I carry the things necessary to do that. I sail with 25 gallons of water and rely on the water maker to keep up with demand. My Lagoon 37 weighs in under 11,000 lbs fully loaded for cruising, a few pounds less than the design weight. Probably ideal performance weight for a Lagoon of this size but difficult to do for most people.

Adding 1,000 lbs of weight to a 10,000 lbs cat is adding 10%. Adding 1,000 lbs of weight to a 40,000 lbs mono-hull is insignificant. A cat has the space to carry a lot of stuff but not the weight carrying capacity vs the opposite for the mono-hull.
Thanks 'Spike' Lots of valuable knowledge in your comments. I have a few questions though, Please. Could you estimate the overall weight other 'extras' needed - thanks. What size/weight do you carry & how many - anchors? What length & size of chain & likewise length & size of rode(s) on each anchor? Do you use 'bridal'(s) when anchoring? Positively agree - spares for repairs will always be needed when you get somewhere & 'somewhere' is always where there are no spares available but needed. Water-maker weighs how much & how much does it make per/hr or per/day & how much power does it require? How many batteries & solar panels do you have & how much do they all weigh?



Great that you're letting/reminding us all know that 1000 lbs added to a 10,000 lb cat is a lot & very significant - which it is. The 54' steel monohull ocean cruising sloop I was sailing on in Darwin weighed 52,800 lbs & then the owner put another 4,500 lbs on board & it did adversely affect the way it sailed, tacked, tracked down-wind & how the bow rose over the ocean waves. The extra weight really didn't do the monohull any farours at all but no where near as adverse an effect as it would have had on a multihull of course. Again - 'Spike' thanks so much !!! I'd sure be grateful to know the weights of the rest of the extras that you know you need to carry to be both safe & comfortable. Ciao, the 'jj-geri-hat-trick' from down-under. PS - Thank Gawd my parrot doesn't weigh very much, eh! james
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Old 07-06-2011, 07:06 AM   #7
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Anchors...A 20kg Rocna with 200' of 5/16 BBB chain +100' rope, a 35 lbs Delta (backup) with 100' chain +200' rope, a fortress for the stern with 25' of chain and 300' rope. In my experience...I should probably cut the chain down to 50' and have 400' of rope for both bow anchors. I should also get rid of the Delta and get another Rocna but that is another topic.

You always should bridle a cat or they will wander around everywhere. They sit happily sideways, either side, and will mindlessly change directions all day, swapping side to side, even trying to get the stern around, without a bridle at anchor (hence the reason for "don't anchor next to a cat"). Mine also sails up over the anchor if not bridled, in light winds. Actually the boat pulls back on the anchor, lifting the chain, which then pulls back on the boat, which now glides up over the anchor. For some reason a bridle corrects this also. I have a simple rope of the proper size with spliced eyes that drop over the bow cleats and with a chain hook in the center. I use a velcro strip to keep it from falling off. I also lock the rode down in case the bridle fails. I do have 2 windlass, one for each bow anchor. A little over kill but I single hand and need to be able to drop/retrieve the hook from the helm.

Water maker weighs about 30 lbs total and makes 30 liters (8gal) per hour. I run it for just 3 or 4 hours every few days. I do flush the system each time which takes 2-3 gallons. It takes 1 amp/hour per gallon at 12 volts. Not a big power drain at all. The alternative is to carry 100 gallons of water...the additional 75 gallons of weight would be 562 lbs.

I did the solar and wind gen experiment. Now strictly solar. A single 135 Watt panel but I plan to add 4 more to the cockpit top. These weigh only about 15lbs each.

I have 4 trojan 125 batteries and they need replacing in the next year (or now). I have been holding off as new battery technology is coming available soon. I have sufficient battery capacity but hope to get the same with a lot smaller battery size and more battery cycles.

About 70 to 100 lbs of resins, plumbing, electrical, glues, belts, sand paper, a 1 pint can of paint, a few brushes, blocks, hose clamps and stainless rigging pieces. Really just the necessary to be able to complete a trip. I can make the permanent repair in port somewhere.

I no longer carry paper charts, having all electronic charts on a computer, 2 chart plotters and a handheld chart plotter. This took over 75 lbs off the boat and I don't miss them. I did keep a couple for planning and I know how to find islands and atolls from weather patterns and cloud reflections. Little used stuff gets given away, including a kayak, extra linen, etc. I carry hooks and sewing kits for the islanders, and, if I get a handicraft in return, I will mail it off to a family member who has donated these types of things. I don't keep knick knacks, shells, handicrafts.

I use a porta-bote. I purchased the boat with an RIB but it was too heavy, about 350 lbs with 15hp outboard, which is way too much to hang on the stern of a cat. I see these hanging on cats all the time but my "pitch pony" improved dramatically when I switched this out. The primary motion in a cat is this pitching motion which is a function of the weight in the bows and sterns. On passage I even remove the anchor from the bow and place it in the locker at the front of the bridge deck, 10' back from the bow. Doesn't sound like much but remember this is the lever effect and that 35 lbs anchor looks like 500 lbs because of the distance from the cp. Knocking 10' off is like removing 350lbs from the bow. Sorry about the long post.
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Old 07-06-2011, 07:55 AM   #8
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Yep,

Weight, it is not only how much but where. Many years ago in undergrad' studies worked for an airfreight company and worked my way up to assistant load master. It was not only how much weight you put on the bird but where you put it. With boats this is also a major concern. We are already looking at a list of what is needed versus what is wanted and what space we will need with family size and such. Keep the information coming please folks.

Michael
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Old 07-07-2011, 02:51 PM   #9
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Or you could just ask the designer/builder what the sinkage rate is.

(Mine is 1174lbs per inch, so the 2 inches of bottom paint showing above water allows about a long ton of loading before the boat floats on its design water line.)

Fair winds,

Al - s/v Persephone
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Old 07-08-2011, 12:22 AM   #10
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Or you could just ask the designer/builder what the sinkage rate is.

(Mine is 1174lbs per inch, so the 2 inches of bottom paint showing above water allows about a long ton of loading before the boat floats on its design water line.)

Fair winds,

Al - s/v Persephone
G'day Al, aka 'belleist'. s/v Persephone looks a nice yacht (if that's a picture of it). Tell us all-about your choice of yacht & why you made that choice & we can all learn from your knowledge, Please. I've asked the designer - Kurt Hughes - several times - for the weight his 'stock' design (38' tri) might carry & still remain within his design weight specifications & cruise safely (ie - not overloaded), all to no avail as he seems to not want to answer the questions asked. Maybe after so long 'down-under' I've lost the ability to speak 'North American' english. His attitude is less than helpful to anyone/everyone wishing to seriously consider one of his yacht designs. Sign of our times I'm sorry to say. The builder has unfortunately passed-away. A shame to loose excellent builder/sailors, such a loss to us all. Thanks for the info about your 'sink-rate'. Every bit of information I get really does help me & I hope everyone else in 'forums' that doesn't want to overload their yacht. Ciao, james
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Old 07-08-2011, 10:14 AM   #11
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Anchors...A 20kg Rocna with 200' of 5/16 BBB chain +100' rope, a 35 lbs Delta (backup) with 100' chain +200' rope, a fortress for the stern with 25' of chain and 300' rope. In my experience...I should probably cut the chain down to 50' and have 400' of rope for both bow anchors. I should also get rid of the Delta and get another Rocna but that is another topic.

You always should bridle a cat or they will wander around everywhere. They sit happily sideways, either side, and will mindlessly change directions all day, swapping side to side, even trying to get the stern around, without a bridle at anchor (hence the reason for "don't anchor next to a cat"). Mine also sails up over the anchor if not bridled, in light winds. Actually the boat pulls back on the anchor, lifting the chain, which then pulls back on the boat, which now glides up over the anchor. For some reason a bridle corrects this also. I have a simple rope of the proper size with spliced eyes that drop over the bow cleats and with a chain hook in the center. I use a velcro strip to keep it from falling off. I also lock the rode down in case the bridle fails. I do have 2 windlass, one for each bow anchor. A little over kill but I single hand and need to be able to drop/retrieve the hook from the helm.

Water maker weighs about 30 lbs total and makes 30 liters (8gal) per hour. I run it for just 3 or 4 hours every few days. I do flush the system each time which takes 2-3 gallons. It takes 1 amp/hour per gallon at 12 volts. Not a big power drain at all. The alternative is to carry 100 gallons of water...the additional 75 gallons of weight would be 562 lbs.

I did the solar and wind gen experiment. Now strictly solar. A single 135 Watt panel but I plan to add 4 more to the cockpit top. These weigh only about 15lbs each.

I have 4 trojan 125 batteries and they need replacing in the next year (or now). I have been holding off as new battery technology is coming available soon. I have sufficient battery capacity but hope to get the same with a lot smaller battery size and more battery cycles.

About 70 to 100 lbs of resins, plumbing, electrical, glues, belts, sand paper, a 1 pint can of paint, a few brushes, blocks, hose clamps and stainless rigging pieces. Really just the necessary to be able to complete a trip. I can make the permanent repair in port somewhere.

I no longer carry paper charts, having all electronic charts on a computer, 2 chart plotters and a handheld chart plotter. This took over 75 lbs off the boat and I don't miss them. I did keep a couple for planning and I know how to find islands and atolls from weather patterns and cloud reflections. Little used stuff gets given away, including a kayak, extra linen, etc. I carry hooks and sewing kits for the islanders, and, if I get a handicraft in return, I will mail it off to a family member who has donated these types of things. I don't keep knick knacks, shells, handicrafts.

I use a porta-bote. I purchased the boat with an RIB but it was too heavy, about 350 lbs with 15hp outboard, which is way too much to hang on the stern of a cat. I see these hanging on cats all the time but my "pitch pony" improved dramatically when I switched this out. The primary motion in a cat is this pitching motion which is a function of the weight in the bows and sterns. On passage I even remove the anchor from the bow and place it in the locker at the front of the bridge deck, 10' back from the bow. Doesn't sound like much but remember this is the lever effect and that 35 lbs anchor looks like 500 lbs because of the distance from the cp. Knocking 10' off is like removing 350lbs from the bow. Sorry about the long post.
G'day 'spike' Please don't be sorry for "about the long post". You need a great big - thank-you !!!! - from all of us - especially me. And I do thank-you!!!! Thanks for sharing many years of 'hard-learned' knowledge with all of us. Couple more Questions; What size & type of 'rode' do you use? Bearing in mind the 'whole' (choice) of the rode is VERY important to the overall sucess of - staying safe/off the rocks - & extra important considering that you would shorten the chain length but not the diameter or style of chain (BB. I'm so pleased that you made the point about need to keep unnecessary weight away from the ends, - ie. desired/perceived necessity of more 'sheer at the bow' which is in itself much more weight at the extreme ends, seems to me to be a very valid point. I'd rather keep the weight out of the ends than have a high(er) sheer - windage, weight & not necessarily a drier boat behind all that weight? Agree that it has a biggeer effect on multihulls than monohulls however most monohull sailors don't fully appreciate how detremental this 'excess weight' really is to the performance of their sailing yacht thus their inherit safety & comfort. All weight possible should be kept as close as possible to the 'C of G', 'C of LR', 'C of E'. IMHO. I do remember - in these pages - reading - 'JeanneP' saying - very clearly - that they sailed - for 'just a few miles' & a couple of days (ha ha) a light wieght 'cruiser-racer' & made a big point of keeping it 'LIGHT' - golly, gosh - I wonder why that was? Gee guys & gals, please, understand that yachts are more subject to the 'laws of physics' than almost any other means of travel that I know of. We choose to cruise to be happy, comfortable & enjoy - - extra weight at he ends of any yachts are not comfortable nor enjoyable & don't make you very happy - whilst 'hobby-horsing' up & down in almost the same spot. IMHO No I don't have the 'formula' for it but I've done a very few ocean miles & am sure of my statement. Back to the forum's comments. Again - thanks - 'spike', I really appreciate you valued comments & notice that your overall evaluation is very similar to Steve & Gail - SV Gone Troppo - 36' Crowther cat (fast one) that they try very hard not to overload. Ciao, james - Still learning - Thanks to y'all. Ciao, james
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Old 07-14-2011, 11:48 PM   #12
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I don't want to know just how overweight we are, but we are at our waterline, and I wish we were floating a bit higher!

Our Tartan 34-2 weighs in at around 11,000 ibs, so she is quite sensitive to weight. The 34-2, also called the 34 MK2 is really a Tartan 33R with one foot of hull added at the stern and a cruising interior. So, she is already just an overloaded race boat. When you load her with the bare essensials to cruise, such as we have, she is really overloaded! As a credit to Tartan Yachts, we recently sailed her 1600 miles heavy with few problems. She handled all conditions quite well, but would have faired even better if loaded lighter. Her storage however, is not located as low as it is on our other boat, a 1966 Pearson Vanguard. The lower center of the weight in the Vanguard, and the more practical storage solutions make it a favorite of ours. Neither boat has the payload capacity I would recommend for world cruising! We own them, so we cruise them. Or maybe they own us? Most experts state that you should figure on a payload of approximately 2,000 lbs PER PERSON for extended cruising... I consider this a really good figure to start with. We can't travel with that much weight, but it would be more comfortable if we could! Anyone can do a voyage with the bare essentials for a month or two, but when you start living your life out of your boat what you can have, and where you can store it equates to your comfort and enjoyment level quickly

. Also of importance is loading your gear in a fashon to keep it where it is in the event of a roll, or even just rough weather. It needs to be weather tight, as few boats truly are (Ask our Flat Screen!). ALL emergency gear must be where you can get to it in the worst conditions. There must be a place to dry wet things. You WILL need tools and spares, and you will have to be able to get to them also. I see many boats with storage compartment lids held in place by gravity only, and that simply isn't good enough! I also see many boats here in the Caribbean that are on anchor or mooring and never go out. If you can't stow your gear properly, you will hesitate to pickup your anchor and go sailing now that you have arrived in paradise!!!

So you see, there are many reasons the heavy displaceent boats are sought after for cruising.... Stowage is IMPORTANT! But so is being able to sail off of a lee shore... Hmmm, Sloop rig it is..........................
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Old 07-15-2011, 10:52 AM   #13
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David,

Where did you get the "waterline"? Was this the designers WL or a line that had been added for whatever purpose at some stage after she was built. Do you know what the designer included on the boat when fixing his waterline?

Richard
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Old 07-15-2011, 11:25 AM   #14
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Tartan has placed a mark which is cast into the fiberglass that is an indicator used for leveling the boat... I will quote from the manual: "DRAFT MARKS- At the bow and stern there are impressions of screws in the gel coat surface. These are NOT imperfections and are placed on the hull to give a reference point for establishing level floatation. The boats float down by the bow. It will be necessary to put several people in the cockpit to level the boat, as would happen when sailing. Measure from the center of the screwhead to the water both bow and stern. with no one aboard, the measurement forward should be 2" to 3" less than the measurement aft. This means that when sailing the boat will be on her lines."

The manual does not talk about weight, payload, or any other "real" measurement necessary in the real world. It does intimate that the "marks" should be above the waterline (And they are!!!), so I feel that we aren't TOO overloaded. With this information in-hand, and only the wife and I aboard, we elected to load more to the aft portion of the boat in order to bring the forementioned levels into play.

I have no idea what the safe payload is for this boat. Though I have sent Tartan a request via email, and they have always been good about answering. I will post an answer if I get one.Judging by their included storage this boat was meant to be kept light!
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