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Old 03-18-2007, 01:58 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by JeanneP View Post
Well, not in the eyes of the coast guard. do understand, this is not my idea, this is the government's opinion. You're going to be okay until somebody squeals.

they are paying money - that goes into the boat. Fuel, for example. That is not the same thing as bringing a little food for everyone to share.
I've spent quite a bit of time trying to find out exactly how the coast guard defines the difference between a commercial venture and recreational venture regarding anything contributed by people other than the owner. It does seem they say that anytime "consideration" is given, it is a commercial. However at least under USCG 1999-5040, they define Consideration as:

"Consideration means an economic benefit, inducement, right, or profit including pecuniary payment accruing to an individual, person, or entity but not including a voluntary sharing of the actual expenses of the voyage by monetary contribution or donation of fuel, food, beverage, or other supplies."

(http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2...cfr24.10-1.pdf)

I would interpret this to mean if crew pitches in money which covers their expense of items such as food, fuel, etc, and you are not making a profit, you would not be considered a commercial under the eyes of the US Coast Guard.

I can't guarantee what I found is the most recent, or that there isn't something else to the contrary written somewhere else - but thought I'd share what I had been able to find.
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Old 03-18-2007, 11:56 AM   #30
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That 1999 paper seems to be the one I was referring to, though I hadn't read it completely. It is more detailed than I expected, and gives a helpful definition of economic consideration. I think there would still be some quibbling by some owners who would claim that wear and tear and depreciation were part of the costs of the voyage, but once they get into intangible "expenses" referred to in business accounting terms, "profit" rears its head.

Thanks for providing that.
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Old 03-21-2007, 02:54 AM   #31
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I guess there are two camps of paying crew.

1] No experience looking for some - then you are acting as a training vessel. I guess I don't have a big issue with this class of paying crew as long as you are really training them. A LA Mahina which does passage training all over the world. Under those conditions I don't see a real issue.

2] A skipper looking for working crew [with experience] to pay there way to help him move the boat. Don't get this at all. If I or any of my friends were to crew for someone on a delivery I would expect my expenses to be covered not the other way around. Can not see any justification for a crew member to pay for the privilege of working the boat.

Like Swagman when we started racing back when the costs of getting the boat to the race line were the edge of the budget, the crew chipped in with some beers but that's about it. Everyone brought their own food etc, with the exception of dropping a winch handle overboard by leaving it in a winch or something else 'stupid' against the boat rules the it was my responsibility.

but goes to the PT Barnum statement.. "There are suckers born every minute"
What do you think of the third camp where owners stipulate delivery crew pay their own airfares to delivery skippers as per the posting crew wanted 18-03-07 mainly pacific.

I consider owners are not meeting their obligations under internatioal treaties and conventions when they make this requirement to delivery skippers. Crew who crew on delivery vessels and pay their own airfares obviously do not know about the international treaties most countries are signed up to. All crew have to do is to make a request to the authorities for airfares home and the authorities force it on captains of vessels with crew that need to get home to pay.

Owners making this stipulation are abusing crew in my opinion.
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Old 03-21-2007, 04:01 AM   #32
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I have heard of this but I don't understand it. As was explained to me once, the skipper is capable of handling the boat himself, and offers a crew position to somebody who wants to get sea miles and experience. However, I went to the delivery firm's web site, and I don't understand why somebody would be willing to take on a Pacific crossing delivery (the Colombia to OZ) and pay for travel to and from the boat when the skipper is being paid. Short deliveries, yes, I can understand - nice way for an avid sailor to get in some hard sailing. But a trans-Pacific crossing? That's a long time and a lot of work. Pretty cheeky of the group, methinks.

I was also told that the way the skipper handles the crew with regard to repatriation is that the skipper asks for the return air ticket from the crew member when he sets foot on the boat, along with his passport, to be returned when he leaves the boat. Is this true?

I think that crew that go along with schemes such as this aren't knowledgeable about the law. I would also believe that many of the customs and immigration offices where these trips end might be similarly unaware of the law and the crew member is the one left to hang. Discussions such as this might be the only inkling some crew might have to what their rights are.

However. For people looking for sea time and experience, and a letter of recommendation at the end, the delivery group is probably a better bet since they pay all expenses while the crew is on board than someone who asks the crew to not only pay for his travel to and from the boat, but also all his expenses on the boat, including sharing boat expenses such as fuel, clearing fees, etc.
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Old 03-21-2007, 06:49 AM   #33
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I think that crew that go along with schemes such as this aren't knowledgeable about the law. I would also believe that many of the customs and immigration offices where these trips end might be similarly unaware of the law and the crew member is the one left to hang. Discussions such as this might be the only inkling some crew might have to what their rights are.
As far as Customs and Immigration authorities are concerned, they are well aware of the ship owner's / operator's responsibility to reopatriate the crew when signed off. What they do not care about (as it is none of their business) is where the money for repatriation comes from. If a crew member has deposited a sum for this with the vessel's owner /skipper and the pile of cash is put on the table indicating that air tickets can be bought then the authorities are quite happy.

The issue, as far as the authorities are concerned, is that a signed off crew member should not become a burden for the port state.

Having said that, you would never get me to sign on a vessel without repatriation included in the contract / ship's articles.

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Old 03-22-2007, 12:58 AM   #34
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As far as Customs and Immigration authorities are concerned, they are well aware of the ship owner's / operator's responsibility to reopatriate the crew when signed off. What they do not care about (as it is none of their business) is where the money for repatriation comes from. If a crew member has deposited a sum for this with the vessel's owner /skipper and the pile of cash is put on the table indicating that air tickets can be bought then the authorities are quite happy.

The issue, as far as the authorities are concerned, is that a signed off crew member should not become a burden for the port state.

Having said that, you would never get me to sign on a vessel without repatriation included in the contract / ship's articles.

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You do not have to go as far as a contract as in most situations for cruising crew there is no contract and even if the contract says you pay your own flights home the authorities say statuary law over rides contract law and stipulate the owner / captain pay the flights if it comes to a dispute. Most crew do not know this.
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Old 03-22-2007, 06:53 AM   #35
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You do not have to go as far as a contract........
You are absolutely correct. However, it is normal practice in shipping circles to stipulate the "rules of repatriation" as the authorities do not care how you travel home but the individual seaman does. For example, is travel to be by business class air travel or can you be repatriated as crew member on another vessel returning to your country.

This is certainly overkill as far as most yacht crews are concerned but we have to accept that the laws which aply in the cruising fraternity are to a very large extent formulated for merchant shipping.

For me repatriation means an air ticket home and not signing on another vessel as a distressed (an official term) seaman.

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Old 03-23-2007, 11:06 PM   #36
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Just for interest's sake, as of right now on this forum, there are 116 "want to crew" posts with 61 replies, and 82 "Crew wanted" posts with 239 responses. Obviously there are more people wanting to crew than those needing crew. It's sad that not all those who want to sail on "other people's boats" will be able to do it because of the legal and financial implications which likely stop many skippers from taking on crew. Is there a solution to this?

Sorry, not crew - people wanting a cheap holiday on a boat.
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Old 03-24-2007, 12:15 AM   #37
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Just for interest's sake, as of right now on this forum, there are 116 "want to crew" posts with 61 replies, and 82 "Crew wanted" posts with 239 responses. Obviously there are more people wanting to crew than those needing crew. It's sad that not all those who want to sail on "other people's boats" will be able to do it because of the legal and financial implications which likely stop many skippers from taking on crew. Is there a solution to this?

Sorry, not crew - people wanting a cheap holiday on a boat.
Wait in Line? {Tongue in Cheek}

Seriously though, this is not the only board or form of advertising; this one being limited to non-commercial endeavors.

Those are raw statistics of the current supply and demand, at a given time, on this board only. Thinking about that, it probably is not much different than the employment and work want ads in a newspaper, in that not every candidate is suited for every position or employer. With a yacht and crew there are many other things to consider from both sides, skills, expectations, departure date & port, passage route, time required en-route, compatibility, etc.

There are solutions to legal and financial implications; understand and comply with them, participate in legislation to change them, or violate them.

A quick look at this current data:

<QUOTE > 82 "Crew wanted" posts with 239 responses <End Quote>

239 / 82 = 2.9 inquiries per position

Without knowing the interactions between those potential crew members and skippers, we can not form accurate conclusions. Just a very few examples:

* Maybe the vessel is leaving to soon or to late.

* Going where the crew does not want to go, or can not go, or does not have adequate time available.

* Lacks resources to get to the dock.

* Lacks a valid passport

* Has an addiction problem

* Wrong gender or sexual orientation

* Crew member is truly interested in sailing and rejects the skipper who has underlying motives concerning the afore mentioned.

2.9 inquirers per position: The inquirers could take the form of a "Shot Gun Approach"; meaning potential crew contacts numerous skippers, looking for the best fit. No different than sending out multiple resumes', knowing one can only accept one position for a regular 8-5 day job.

I hope that clarified it some. Meanwhile the board remains a free source, for those with non-commercial interests, to interact with others having similar interests.
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Old 03-24-2007, 03:06 PM   #38
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Sorry, not crew - people wanting a cheap holiday on a boat.
I think this sums up the differences in opinion quite well. I don't take "crew" along for a cheap holiday, nor are they financing my cruising. What I am talking about is a lifestyle. Not just any lifestyle but a great one. One which I am prepared to share with others in order to share with others the pleasure I have received from my cruising lifestyle.

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Old 03-24-2007, 03:31 PM   #39
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That was said with tongue in cheek, since we agreed that "crew" is not the correct term.

Yes I want to share my lifestyle with others. And I want to expand my circle of friends. The definition of a friend is a stranger I don't know yet, so I advertise on these websites in hopes of meeting some special people who would like to share my lifestyle.
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Old 03-24-2007, 04:14 PM   #40
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Yes I want to share my lifestyle with others. And I want to expand my circle of friends. The definition of a friend is a stranger I don't know yet, so I advertise on these websites in hopes of meeting some special people who would like to share my lifestyle.
I agree completely with your definition of a stranger. Good one!

However, I am against taking "crew", new friends or whatever is sematically correct along for some form of payment or compensation. I have gone into this in detail elsewhere on this site about this. I am not against cost sharing in principal but in practice there are too many complications.

As far as the site is concerned though, the bottom line is that ads for crew or, again whatever the semantically correct term may be, can be posted as long as the "crew" member can tag along free of charge or is required only to contribute what is a reasonable proportion of the victualling cost. The accepted norm here is US $20 per day. Form my ownpart - I live on less aboard.

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Old 03-25-2007, 04:54 PM   #41
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Seagypsywoman - I like your definition. The people who have returned to cruise with me the most are people I originally met online. Most of my life-long friends have lifestyles that don't give them the time.
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Old 04-14-2007, 11:05 AM   #42
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1) Crew reparation...It is true that the captain is responsible for this. It is not true that the captain MUST reparate the crew. If the captain has an agreement that the crew will fly themselves out at their cost then that is also acceptable. The captain is responsible to see the crew reparated, the way the crew returns home is up to him and the crew.

2) Crew costs. Someone wrote in one of the above posts that there are no costs associated with having crew on board except for food. That is entirely untrue. Nearly every country has an immigration fee for EACH person. Some countries require bonds to be posted...price of airfare home. If it's a pleasure cruise then each person should pay for that travel. If it's a delivery then the owner should pay. JMO

3) Money should never be an issue while cruising. It detracts from the experience. If the crew or captain are unhappy with the arrangements then it means you need new crew, new boat (captain) or a new agreement. Don't let the money issue spoil the fun.

I supply the boat and a good time. Expenses that I would incur, if I had no crew on board, I pay for. Includes fuel, repairs, and my share of food. Crew pays for their expenses...food, booze, small country immigration fees, a bond if it needs to be posted for them. I ask the crew to cook as I'm a terrible cook, but I wash up as my contribution in this area. I ask them to lend a hand cleaning, stand a watch, call me at any time, and have as good a time as possible. If something breaks I am responsible to fix it, at my cost. We travel to places that they might suggest, share a common bond of sailing and the adventure of traveling to foriegn lands and the cost to them is their meals. I provide the travel and accomodations for free. We share the experiences of travel and friendship, beautiful sailing or crashing waves, new friends in villages, good experiences and bad. It's all about the travel experience...never about the money. This is just my opinion.
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