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Old 06-25-2007, 03:23 AM   #57
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olá to everybody!

what a fantastic debate! i love it! why would anyone pay for the privilege of working on somebody's boat? and why would not? i agree with both side opinions in lots of matters.

i, as a cruiser, never ask for money to my crew, even i pay them if their skills are good enough. why? simple... because i can afford it. worst thing of this? telling lots of people that i'm not interested in them as my crew, and hearing from them that it's difficult for them to get a chance on a sailing vessel due to their short experience. it's easier for me to pay than to teach, sorry.

DO I EXPECT ANY CRUISER TO ACT MY WAY??? N-E-V-E-R!

lots of members stated points which are surely right about increasing costs because of having other people aboard. i don't want to repeat their words. and i agree. even, i crewed for other skippers and paid a reasonable contribution in costs (25 euro/day)... why? that was cheaper than sailing my own boat, and i learned a lot from them.

DO I EXPECT ANY CREW TO ACT MY WAY??? N-E-V-E-R!

so it is simple... LIVE AND LET LIVE! somebody said supply and demand law, i agree too.

fair winds!

capitäo albertinho
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Old 07-02-2007, 10:00 AM   #58
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All interesting comments; I am one of those who have used this site to find "paying crew", I refer to them as volunteer crew so perhaps I can add a few comments on the topic from my perspective.

I have a 40 foot boat purchased in AU with my wife as first mate. My wife decided that she just could not get back into cruising (we had been away from living aboard for 12 years prior to purchase of this boat). I was faced with sailing single handed on passages but I rejected this as not being seamanlike as I think it is essential to keep a visual lookout 24/7 when underway. The other options were having crew on board or leaving my dream behind. The issue for me is a proper watch on passages, not the cost of operating the boat for myself. But I could not afford paying crew or even to feed crew given the unplanned expense of having a residence back in the USA.

I have now cruised from Australia to New Caledonia/Vanuato, back to Australia then on SE Asia, Maldives, Chagos and am now in the Seychelles. This portion of the odessy has taken 4 years to date. The shared expenses have ranged from $250-500 USD per month per person. The rate depends on how long they wish to stay on board, how much they can contribute to the sailing and other tasks (how much experience they have), the local area costs and the number of crew onboard. I typically do not ask any contribution or charge any thing for those who come for a day sail or just overnight other than buying and cooking the meals and drinks for all onboard. No one has said to me that the fees were too high or inappropriate, many have said they thought it was great value. Some times I have carried crew who were short on cash for a month. Once when I lost my wallet and ATM, my then crew (23 year old German) paid for me and the boat for almost a month through Indonesia! Thanks Kai!

Most crew come with no experience, but I have had licensed professional skippers including one circumnavigator. Ages have ranged from 64 years of age to 18, both genders, all major religious groups (at the risk of offending those not mentioned this has included devout and not so devout Christians and Muslims, Hebrew, Budhists, agnostics and aetheists), 16 different nationalities and couples as well as singles of all sexual persuasions. Most are travelling on limited budgets, and most regard themselves as world travellers or backpackers; the vast majority are on board for 3-6 weeks, but some have stayed on board for 4.5 months. I have had approximatley 30 people on board who were on board more than 2 weeks but probably double that number on board for less. Several have come onboard intending to stay one-two months but left after 3 days stating that they really did not like the lifestyle. Typical crew would be myself plus two but on occassion for short passages of two days there have been a total of five onboard. Sometimes it is just me and one other.

In this time I have had one person I have had to ask to leave the boat, three (other than those who voluntarily left early) that I was quite pleased to see leave at the end of their preannounced time, about 50% the total number I am certain I would not like to have on board for 30 days in a remote set of islands like Chagos but whom I could tolerate day sailing and passage making so long as there was not a great deal of free time, and about 12-15 that I would welcome back anytime in any situation and consider friends. All but 1 person was a total stranger when we began talking about cruising together.

I teach the basics of sailing and cruising, enough for crew to be able to stand a watch (wake/tell me if something is awry) , raise and lower the anchor and sails, some sail trim, tie basic knots (6 of them) and line handling. I have taught more than a dozen the basics of cooking including how to bake bread. Most learn far more than the minimum, and for those who embrace the crising lifestyle, it is a truly rewarding experience for all. A few who came onboard with no experience have been able at the end of their time, usually in two months or so, to be able to sail the boat off an anchor, sail to the next anchorage and get the boat safely moored or anchored with only limited supervision. Several have gone on to paying positions on larger yachts.

For the money paid, the crew help select the food they want to cook, as everyone shares in cooking so they get to see what their money is buying. The quality of the food is in direct proportion to the ability and desires of those cooking as the boat is always provisioned with a broad range of food goods to the extent that the local markets allow. In short the crew and the skipper eat what the crew and skipper chose to cook, sometimes it is noodle soups, sometime home made soups from scratch. Sometimes it is canned beans with rice, sometimes lamb roasts with fresh vegetables and baked bread. They also get the opportunity to do the menial chores such as cleaning the head, bilge, laundry, hauling water and fuel jugs, and doing routine maintenance of oil/fuel filter changes dingy repairs and sanding, priming and painting. I liken his work to the shared chores that they would have to perform if they were living in an apartment and sharing a car. They do not participate unless special arangements are made share in major work like haulouts etc. To the extent that my long term cruising plans allow, crew help select anchorages and destinations, always subject to my final decision.

The funds that I recieve do not come close to the cost of maintenance and upkeep of equipment from normal wear and tear, much less the increased wear and tear on equipment that is a direct result of having novice and unskilled crew on board. Usually all the cash from the crew is spent on provisioning, clearance fees, fuel and the like, but occassionaly I have funds left over to replace items like clothes pegs, towels, sheets, cutlery and the like which seem to be lost with regular abandon by crew! I should add that one of the reasons I went cruising was to get away from managment and such hassles, but I find that I am now working the hardest at managing the disparate crew I always seem to have on board! The money does allow me the opportunity to continue with my dream in what I consider to be a responsible seamanlike manner.

I believe I have a grasp of the the legal complexities involved in crew verses guest, but I will not attempt to say that I am a lawyer and can address with professional clarity the rules of all the countries where I have travelled. All crew understand they need to have sufficient funds to travel on from wherever they get off the boat, be it by their choice or mine. No one has every objected to this arrangement and I have never had to have anyone sign anything. When crew or I have an issue about how to treat an issue, we discuss it and get clarification as required from local authorities. I have never been accused of being in the charter trade by any offiials, although technically I suppose you can make the case that any contribution, be it in cash or any other form, make the action a charter.

Thanks for letting me share my perspective.

Skipper Tom
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Old 07-02-2007, 10:16 AM   #59
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Great post Tom. There are many cruisers out there doing what you're doing.

Thanks for sharing.
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Old 07-05-2007, 11:26 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post


Great post Tom. There are many cruisers out there doing what you're doing.

Thanks for sharing.
yes, great post, tom. there are many cruisers out there doing what you're doing and only few are allowed to post in here. so double congratulations!!! i passed your e-mail to some friends of mine living in madagascar who will love your cruise. i hope you don't mind.

i love seeing that this forum's administrators are renewing their philosophy, so congratulations to them too! this community will grow up and that kind of crew who never gets a reply (due to lack of "free opportunities" in these days) will have a chance sharing expenses.

capitäo albertinho.
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Old 07-06-2007, 06:27 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by albertinho View Post
yes, great post, tom. there are many cruisers out there doing what you're doing and only few are allowed to post in here. so double congratulations!!!

i love seeing that this forum's administrators are renewing their philosophy, so congratulations to them too! this community will grow up and that kind of crew who never gets a reply (due to lack of "free opportunities" in these days) will have a chance sharing expenses.

capitäo albertinho.
Hi albertinho,

Please allow me to comment on your post.

1. You maintain that "only a few are allowed to post in here". Not so. Every member of the forum (which is open to all) is welcome to post his or her opinions here provided they follow the guidlines laid down and do not use the forum as a platform to infringe the law. The law is not of our doing. The guidlines are; but these are simply an expression of the kind of courtesy our members and guests have a right to expect.

2. As to the forum renewing its policies then you are quite correct. Part of any good management process is the assessing of the current situation and thereafter a review of strategy and which may also lead to a policy riview too. However, on the issue in question the forum has not changed its point of view. The forum has nothing against crew members contributing to their keep on board and even sharing other costs too. What we do object to, and I reitterating that which has been frequently stated, is so called crew members who are required to pay MORE than their fair share, thereby subventioning the boat-owner's lifestyle.

Aye

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Old 07-06-2007, 10:07 AM   #62
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Quote:
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yes, great post, tom. there are many cruisers out there doing what you're doing

capitäo albertinho.
There ARE many cruisers doing this but it does not mean that they can advertise on the FREE Cruiser Log Crewfinder.

Whichever way you wish to look at this, there is INCOME. If someone was cruising on their own they would have fuel and possible marina expenses. When that cruiser charges "crew" for a portion of those expenses he is getting INCOME to assist towards covering the expenses of his voyage. Unless the skipper AND vessel is documented and licenced to carry such paying "guests" the practice is illegal. Cruiser Log does not wish to be seen to condone this illegal practice. Cruiser Log has no interest (beyond concern) how cruisers are cruising around the world and how these cruisers are funding their voyage. "There are many cruisers doing this".

However, Cruiser Log's policy is that if there is INCOME generated it is contrary to the purpose for which our free crewfinder was established - "To assist genuine cruisers to find crew for passages".

"albertinho"

Allow me to ask you a question:

Due to the fact that there is INCOME, would you agree that those "cruisers" should pay to advertise in order to generate that INCOME?

OR

Should they be allowed to abuse FREE websites to place adverts to generate INCOME for themselves?

I eagerly await your (and/or anyone else's) answer to the above simple question.
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Old 07-06-2007, 11:17 PM   #63
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hi guys!

stephen, i guess that since we both aren't native english speakers (probably you are, then it must be only my fault) by "there are many cruisers out there doing what you're doing and only few are allowed to post in here." what i meant is that only a few of those cruisers who are doing what tom's doing are allowed to post in here. i think it was clearly stated before, but maybe you understand better now. this may help: "there are many cruisers out there doing what you're doing and only A FEW OF THEM are allowed to post in here."

lighthouse, your simple question is simple to answer too. i think that charter enterprises, cruisers who can legally get income and so, should pay a fee to place advertisements to generate income for themselves. in fact, we all can realize that if this forum allowed them to post for free, would lose the income they get by those nice charters they ad by google. and we know that you don't want so.

as i stated at a previous post, i can afford paying professional crew or having just competent one paying for their own food and drinks (about 3 euro/day). but there are many cruisers out there who can't.

you said: "To assist genuine cruisers to find crew for passages". is tom less genuine cruiser than me??? don't think so. and i bet more than anything that he and his spouse aren't getting any income by sharing expenses. you can write down INCOME 28 times and maybe you end believing that this man is getting any income. i can read it 48 times and still think and bet he's not.

you can call it CSC (community supported crewing) if you like, doing a paralelism to CSA (community supported agriculture) movement in USA. what can you get from this? having a happy cluster of cruisers and a happy cluster of crew sailing together. you can find this by reading tom's post.

and believe me, what he does regarding to giving vote to his crew about destinations (of course subject to his final decision), food, etc is what his crew wouldn't find on my vessel. then, sure, you would also say that his crew is less genuine than mine, wouldn't you? don't think so again.

then, if the point is never losing your income from ads by google, i can understand it. because i would also bet that you, lighthouse, know that cruisers needing some support by crew willing to support them is not a commercial venture. it's just something you wouldn't do. it's just something i'm not doing now, but, who knows, might do in future if things come in another way.

then if you think best practice is to set a line saying this can, this cannot be posted as an ad to get crew, try to know what will be that contribution payed by crew. will that be useful??? sure, as long as you consider there are places in our world where sailing (food, drinks, fuel, marinas...) is more expensive than in others.

and as long as you aren't deleting those sharing expenses ads anyone can find at this forum, i will feel happy that you are renewing your philosophy (even if you don't want google to know, but it'd be more honest to face google).

thank for your attention.

capitäo albertinho
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Old 07-06-2007, 11:28 PM   #64
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If you want to stop people posting otherwise unacceptable ads, why not fix the format and, therefore, possible content on the crew sought forum.

This would include but not be limited to a formal declaration that the advertiser was not contravening your terms of placement along with a statement of expected contributions to cover acceptable items thereby exposing unreasonable expectations/demands for food etc.

Needs refinement in terms of what you might ask the advertisers to provide in order to adequately/better describe themselves, their intended passage, their vessel, expected contribution etc without the use of free text but, if you really want/need to address the problem, ya gotta take some control!

It would certainly make it easier for prospective crew to assess what was actually on offer with incomplete info likely reflecting incomplete plans!

See ya!
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Old 07-07-2007, 03:10 AM   #65
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I recently registered on Cruiser Log and make very few posts, because I am here to learn from others who know far more than me. I am not an especially clever person, but I don't have the difficulty many others appear to have regarding this crew/payment discussion.

I understand if I want crew to help me sail my boat, and I want them to pay for their own food and booze, I can advertise free of charge. If I want to supplement my income by charging for fuel, maintenance or anything other than food and booze, I must pay for the privilege of advertising. That seems to me to be ordinary, very easily understood business practice.

Sponging off free sites by advertising in order to make a profit, is exploitative. I also understand that Cruiser Log doesn't make the rules regarding illegal charters. Those rules are made by authorities. I understand Cruiser Log doesn't want to support what is an illegal activity, even if it is not seriously illegal. Again is that such a difficult concept to grasp?

Albertinho, I had a site and had Google ads on it. In the space of one year I earned less than $50. The way it works is google don't pay for ad space. They pay about 1cent....ONE CENT!!!!!.... each time someone clicks on and opens the ad. In other words the income from google ads is not enough to keep a one man office in cheap instant coffee!

Why are so many people arguing with Cruiser Log over this? Albertinho, you don't make the blasted rules, and the way I see it is, if you want to advertise for crew, you can either comply or go elsewhere for that portion of your cruising needs. Stay with Cruiser Log for other open discussion which is not governed by simple commercial rules. Reading through the whole topic, it is apparent that the people who give us this wonderful FREE site are considering dumping the crew seeker board because of people who don't want to comply. When I next head out into the Indian ocean, I will advertise here because I can comply. If I wanted to make extra money, from crew/passengers, to spend when I arrive in Durban, then I will advertise on a site where they have different rules.

Please do not cause Cruiser Log to shut this board, because that will hurt cruisers such as me...and those who caused it to be shut down will have gained nothing except the knowledge that they have disadvantaged some of their own kind.

It is very, very easy to understand....even easier to do the right thing.
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Old 07-07-2007, 02:43 PM   #66
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Excellent post.



Normandie
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Old 07-07-2007, 04:59 PM   #67
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"albertinho"

You quote:

Quote:
try to know what will be that contribution payed by crew. will that be useful??? sure, as long as you consider there are places in our world where sailing (food, drinks, fuel, marinas...) is more expensive than in others.
Please read this whole thread from the beginning again.

You have to pay for fuel, marinas, etc., whether you have "crew" or not. If "crew" must pay for a portion of these expenses then you have INCOME towards your own cruising overheads.

Now, please read my lips: If you are generating INCOME then you must pay for advertising and not abuse free facilities such as these.

How much simpler can I explain this?



Ask yourself the question:

Are you wanting crew to assist you on a passage?

If so, don't you think that you should at least "feed" them in exchange for their duties?

OR

Do you want people to work on your boat and still expect them to pay for the privilege? To pay towards the overheads of your cruising lifestyle? If this is the case, you must pay for advertising to find these paying "guests".

Yes, there is a big market for these "paying crew" - but don't use THIS crewfinder to find them. And, don't call them CREW - they are passengers/guests and I hope that you and your boat are properly documented to carry them.

Admin.
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Old 07-07-2007, 08:16 PM   #68
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Why is this issue so emotive? I can recall few, if any, threads which have evoked as much response as this one.

We all have our own opinions as to what is justified or not regarding crewing or fare-paying passengers but that is not the point. The Forum's policy regarding this issue has been clearly stated many times. The rest is quite simple. To put it bluntly, follow the rules or go elsewhere. That is all there is to it.

I would very much dislike to see the free crew finder service drawn in but, mark my words, it will be if the Forum's guidlines for postings are not complied with. In the interest of the majority of skippers and even more so of crew members, I respectfully ask those advertising for crew to follow the rules. Should the crew-finder facility by drawn in then it is they, and not the administrator or moderating team, who will be the worse off.

Aye

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Old 07-07-2007, 08:30 PM   #69
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Two or three "improper" ads are being deleted from the crewfinder daily.
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Old 07-07-2007, 09:30 PM   #70
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Questionable adverts are in violation of board policy, time consuming, disruptive, inconsiderate, frustrating, and cause for debate where there should be none. The questional adverts sometimes may be the cause of ill feelings, and should not be. It is a most persistant problem.

At the same time, the Crew Wanted and Wanting To Crew fourms are provided as a service to vessels, skippers, and crew, for registered members, that follow the clearly stated policies. Note that this service is free, while there are out of pocket financial costs for hardware, software, band width, internet connection and the like. The Moderator Team administers the site voluntarily; almost always providing continous coverage 24 hours a day, everyday. Based on that, I think the violators have vo viable arguement, even though they persist in violating the rules, sometimes making a big fuss over their opinion, and what they desire we offer, but do not, or will not tolerate.

There are alternatives.

* Continue as we have. Put up with those that fail to comply; several times a day, every day.

* Remove these forums from the board. The Moderator Team thinks this is a valuable service for members, and would like to keep these services in place, contributing to non-commercial sailing experiences.

* Those that do not like the rules, have the option of finding another board with differant rules; or paying for commercial advertising; which probably is not excessive. They could always start there own board and make their own rules as they see fit.

I do not understand why some insist and persist on violating the rules; even when ask in a response post, or by e-mail to comply. I wonder how they get along in life, in another country, in another culture, wtih foreign customs and immigration, and their spouse.

Jeff
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