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Old 12-12-2007, 02:31 PM   #1
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A discussion topic...

For anyone doesn't know I manage an Island Fishing Lodge (Resort) of the West Aussie Pilbara coast in the middle of cyclone alley.

In discussions with one of the compnay managers during a recent visit, I was discussing my plans to provide details of our anchorage, moorings and services / facilities that we can offer to passing cruising yacht sailors, in the hope of attracting more guests - and earning more revenues to make the place viable..

The advice I got surprised me - but since having researched and read this forum with a more critical/cynical eye, I am wondering if there is a certain grain of truth in the advice?.

I was advised that basically, the cruising yach fraternity are the "backpackers of the sea" hoping to sail for free around the world on a hand full of mung beans and sponge all the help / assistance and freebies they can off anyone unfortunate enough along the way to cross paths with them...

On land they would be the type - who I've seen myself while travelling as a youngster - arriving at caravan parks at an unreasonably late hour - with an excuse about "trouble on the road / delays" in the hope they will be ushered into a camping space and told to sort it out in the morning at the office, only to find - they have eaten, showered, refilled their water supplies, slept (breifly) and vacated before the park opens in the morning.....lifes travelling gypsies and freeloaders, trading on peoples goodwill to their fellow man, and in the process destroying that trait for those who arriving after them, might genuinely be in need of such compassion.

Isn't that the main attraction of crusing yacht sailing?...free passage around the world - no responsibilites, no expenses, and seeing all the beautiful places of the world on a shoestring?

The "Dream" of most seems to be that they can stop in somewhere, and find work - i.e earn more than they spend, sufficient to top up their travelling account, so that they can pay the few $ they have to in order to see & do the "must see / must do" tourist activities in far flung places...

Now - if your a brain surgeon and can manage a few ops in each port - well good luck to you...but is it realistic to expect the marine communities around the world to provide your work opportunities, income, tennancy, food, water, etc so that you can experience some Alby Mangles type world cruise experience, all for free?

I am really interested to see, how many have planned ahead, invested / budgeted and setup sufficient income to be able top travel the world in comfort and style, paying their way and being a source of income to marine businesses along the way rather than a source of income drain / liability.

How does one - who's stated objective is to provide a service and make a profit doing so avoid attracting the limpets, barnacles, and remora's - who inevitably will show up hoping to take advantage of your good nature and fleece you into the bargain - those with floating garbage scows, which are an embarrassement to your business and who you WISH would up anchor and leave - without actually having to be so rude as to tell them to "shoot thru Blue"?

Is that not in fact a ploy of some - embarrass you abuse the hospitality to a point, you will give them anything they want, or indeed everything you have, in the forlorne hope they will just LEAVE without an actual confrontation?

I've been advised to avoid the cruising yacht community entirely as potential clientelle, like the plague - as "the backpackers of the sea" as our official company policy...

Right or wrong?

Who here pays their way and then some - and who are the warned about freeeloaders?...

Do we need a poll?

Curious & I throw the floor open to discussion - are SOME in cruising yacht fraternity spoiling it for others?

Should there be an "ethics guide to yacht cruising", that helps to reverse the entrenched opinion of a 40 year marine career professional within the company that I've just encountered?

What say yea?

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Old 12-12-2007, 03:21 PM   #2
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My initial reaction on reading this post was to think, "this guy is really throwing down the gauntlet and looking for a good slapping" but, unfortunately, there is more than a grain of truth in the statements. As in all walks of life, there are good people and there are freeloaders. Fortunately, IMHO, there are fewer freeloaders amongst the cruising fraturnity but let me try to answer the questions and comment upon the statements

For anyone doesn't know I manage an Island Fishing Lodge (Resort) of the West Aussie Pilbara coast in the middle of cyclone alley.

OK. I have no cause not to believe you.

In discussions with one of the compnay managers during a recent visit, I was discussing my plans to provide details of our anchorage, moorings and services / facilities that we can offer to passing cruising yacht sailors, in the hope of attracting more guests - and earning more revenues to make the place viable..

Good idea if you are close to a cruising route



The advice I got surprised me - but since having researched and read this forum with a more critical/cynical eye, I am wondering if there is a certain grain of truth in the advice?.


Ultimately it is your choice.

I was advised that basically, the cruising yach fraternity are the "backpackers of the sea" hoping to sail for free around the world on a hand full of mung beans and sponge all the help / assistance and freebies they can off anyone unfortunate enough along the way to cross paths with them...

Well I would like to be able to sail freely arround the world too. What tells me that I can't is a yacht which costs about as much as a house to buy and considerably more in upkeep as well as the running maintenance and replacements for worn parts, such as sails.

As for living on mung beans, I have a workmate who has no interest in sailing whatsoever but, despite this, is an ardent vegitarian and surviving very nicely on beans etc.

Regarding sponging and freebies I would say that society is changing and more and more people in all walks of life are looking for freebies. As for sponging, I believe that society in general sponges more from yactsmen than yachtsmen from society. Look, for example, at the price of a mooring on England's south coast. People are paying vast sums for a little bit of mud which is covered by water twice a day, at the top of the tide. No facilities provided. Think of the vast numbers of people working in the boating industry who derive their incomes from yachtsmen and other boaters. No way will I endorse the statement that cruisers (in general) are spongers.

On land they would be the type - who I've seen myself while travelling as a youngster - arriving at caravan parks at an unreasonably late hour - with an excuse about "trouble on the road / delays" in the hope they will be ushered into a camping space and told to sort it out in the morning at the office, only to find - they have eaten, showered, refilled their water supplies, slept (breifly) and vacated before the park opens in the morning.....lifes travelling gypsies and freeloaders, trading on peoples goodwill to their fellow man, and in the process destroying that trait for those who arriving after them, might genuinely be in need of such compassion.

I have seen this happen once and that was during this last summer when in Denmark a very large yacht (not Danish) sneaked out of Svendborg harbour after having refused to pay their harbour dues. The made their escape whilst the young girl who's job it was to collect the dues went to get the harbour master to sort the dispute out. The persons involved will probably not read this but if they do they should hang their heads in shame.

Isn't that the main attraction of crusing yacht sailing?...free passage around the world - no responsibilites, no expenses, and seeing all the beautiful places of the world on a shoestring?

Seeing beautiful places, yes. That is one of the main attractions. forget all the others! As I have already pointed out, sailing is not cheap. In fact, it probably is one of the most expensive ways there are to see the world. No responsibilities!! Who are you kidding? Those who survive a round the world sailing voyage without taking responsibility must be blessed by God. I can think of few, if any, activities in which one takes on more responsibility than crossing oceans in yachts. One becomes ship master, doctor, engineer, navigator, cook, cleaner, carpenter etc. all rolled into one.

The "Dream" of most seems to be that they can stop in somewhere, and find work - i.e earn more than they spend, sufficient to top up their travelling account, so that they can pay the few $ they have to in order to see & do the "must see / must do" tourist activities in far flung places...

True, some cruisers seek work in the ports they come to. But that is also the dream of many people on so called "working holidays". If a cruising yachtsman can provide some skills which are locally in short supply then who is the greatest beneficiary?

Now - if your a brain surgeon and can manage a few ops in each port - well good luck to you...but is it realistic to expect the marine communities around the world to provide your work opportunities, income, tennancy, food, water, etc so that you can experience some Alby Mangles type world cruise experience, all for free?

Now, I am not aquainted with Alby Mangles but you have really underlined my point here. A brain surgeon doing a few ops is providing a service to the community and, just like you, he or she expects to be renumirated for the job. Nothing strange in that is there? As for those of us who are not brain surgeons we can finance our cruising in different ways. Some have pensions, others have saved enough to carry them arround the world, a few (very few) write for a living and others are willing to take jobs which come their way. I have met quite a number of the latter who want work and are willing to work but do not expect it as their God given right. And, after all, if they are offered work then it is the local people who are doing the offering so instead of bitching at cruisers about this try knocking a few local heads together.

I am really interested to see, how many have planned ahead, invested / budgeted and setup sufficient income to be able top travel the world in comfort and style, paying their way and being a source of income to marine businesses along the way rather than a source of income drain / liability.

I am interested too but I think the answer would surprise you, not me. I have funded my sailing through working and nothing else. Admittedly, my work has taken me all over the world but that had nothing to do with my sailing. The same would have been the case if I had elected to play golf in my time off. An ex-pat life style has some advantages, i.e. long breaks between assignments during which I sail.

How does one - who's stated objective is to provide a service and make a profit doing so avoid attracting the limpets, barnacles, and remora's - who inevitably will show up hoping to take advantage of your good nature and fleece you into the bargain - those with floating garbage scows, which are an embarrassement to your business and who you WISH would up anchor and leave - without actually having to be so rude as to tell them to "shoot thru Blue"?

Well, carry on in this manner and you will be lucky if anyone shows up at all.

Is that not in fact a ploy of some - embarrass you abuse the hospitality to a point, you will give them anything they want, or indeed everything you have, in the forlorne hope they will just LEAVE without an actual confrontation?

There may be some who would employ this method but as you already seem to have identified a potential if, in my opinion, small problem then you should be able to deal with it should it arrise. After all, you are talking of a service industry and service industries in all branches have problems with a very small section of the population which tries to avoid paying its way. If you can not deal with it then I respectfully suggest that you are in the wrong business.

I've been advised to avoid the cruising yacht community entirely as potential clientelle, like the plague - as "the backpackers of the sea" as our official company policy...

My suggestion is that you tell us which company this is then we will avoid you! No problems for either party then.

Right or wrong?

Who here pays their way and then some - and who are the warned about freeeloaders?...

Do we need a poll?

Curious & I throw the floor open to discussion - are SOME in cruising yacht fraternity spoiling it for others?

Should there be an "ethics guide to yacht cruising", that helps to reverse the entrenched opinion of a 40 year marine career professional within the company that I've just encountered?


An ethical guide is an interesting idea. Perhaps there should be an ethical guide for life in general? The only problem is that ethics change from society to society and year to year. No, no ethical guide is needed. Business relations are already well regulated in most societies and there are regulations regarding boat safety etc.

I also have arround 40 years of professional maritime experience and have found cruisers to be a group of responsible people, maybe not more so than others but certainly not less.

Finally, your post here seems very contradictory to your last post in which you stated, "As the new managers here - I can assure any passing sailors that we welcome with open arms any passing sailors and crew who want to seek shelter here." Now I am confused. Which is it to be?

Aye // Stephen
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Old 12-12-2007, 04:14 PM   #3
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This subject came up in "Sail" magazine not too long ago. A famous (apparently) cruising couple (no, not them) had written an article describing how they had circumvented the laws in some country while cruising, and someone wrote in accusing them of "poisoning the waters" for those who followed. The couple replied with an answer that was so offensive ("we are rock stars, you are scum", is the short version) that I'm surprised "Sail" even printed it. I didn't get in on the beginning of this, nor did I see the end (if there was more), so don't know all the facts on either side. Anyone know what really happened?

Bill
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Old 12-12-2007, 04:16 PM   #4
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To "Nausikaa"

Well said!

To "Flywest"

I do not post much but read this forum often. On reading the post by "Flywest" I am incensed!

I was prompted to do a quick search on the Internet and find that "Flywest" is nothing but an argumentative TROLL, and should simply be ignored. Don't give him the satisfaction of knowing that you are reading his nonsense, nevermind replying.

It astounds me that someone like this even dreams that he can establish a business that has anything to do with the public.

I would not pull into his "Flywest Fishing Charters" hole if he paid me. His public relations is atrocious.

To the board admin

Delete his trashy ramblings - his membership here downgrades this forum.

End of rave!
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Old 12-12-2007, 04:20 PM   #5
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Stephen....you are such a gentleman to give the reply you have given.

Flywest..... growup....there are shoddy people in every facet of life. I take into account managers of fishing lodges too. Which are you? The good, and kind business man, or the one who will take advantage of those who seek out your business? It works both ways you know!
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Old 12-12-2007, 06:32 PM   #6
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Nausikaa answered so well that I have little to add. However, I will anyway.

Flywest, did that same person warn you about Australia's "feral children"? The youth of Australia who do not work, have never worked, who live "free" and feed themselves from the money they get from the dole? When we were last in Oz that was the topic of a television program. So. Does that mean that all Australian youth are freeloaders who consider it their right to be paid to do nothing? I know that it doesn't, of course, and wouldn't insult the Australians by opening a discussion with them by asking them to prove that they are not all freeloaders.

Of course there are bad eggs in every lot. Do you insult all cruisers by asking them to prove that they're not one of the bad ones? In most cruising guides, and on most cruising forums there are usually warnings to cruisers to avoid certain shops/anchorages/bays because the "locals" are not cruiser-friendly. There are not that many places that are not friendly to cruisers, though. How would you interpret that? Mine is that the majority of cruisers are good and decent folk who pay their own way and are welcomed by the majority of destinations for the business that they bring to the area.

What a business should understand is that cruisers are more sophisticated travelers than the average tourist they will see. They understand value for the money and will turn their back on exploitative businesses. You usually won't be able to charge them $5.00 for the cup of coffee that cost you $0.10 to make and serve. They aren't going to buy the ticky-tacky junk that the fly-in-spend-7-days-fly-out tourist grabs on his last day so they won't go home empty-handed with no proof they were far from home. Short-change a cruiser and soon all the cruisers in the area will know about it and be on their guard.

I repeat, though. Cruisers understand value for the money. They have been charged a little for services, they have been charged a lot for services. They have gotten things fixed well for a reasonable amount of money, they have had lousy repairs done on the cheap AND ALSO at a ridiculously inflated price. "You get what you pay for" but "paying a lot more doesn't always mean a lot more service, sometimes it just means that the supplier is a crook." And one of those crooked suppliers once cheated us in such a way that it could have cost us our lives.

You handled the discussion badly. You might not get a second chance.
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Old 12-12-2007, 06:57 PM   #7
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Flywest,

If you could let us know which diplomacy or marketing schools you attended, it'd serve as a useful warning to anyone wishing to make a success in either field.

See ya - well, maybe not if I can avoid it!
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Old 12-12-2007, 07:15 PM   #8
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Are you the same "Flywest" that made this post on this forum in November?

http://www.cruiserlog.com/forums/index.php...amp;#entry14850

Did your "commercial" not work?
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Old 12-12-2007, 07:15 PM   #9
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hmm... is it just me or does a business plan which is centered on getting people who live on a boat (from which they can fish at will) to pay you to take them fishing sound a little shaky??
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Old 12-12-2007, 08:27 PM   #10
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I don't think SHAKY is the word. More like DESPERATION to keep from going under. I have the feeling that cruisers have been slapped in the face. I myself am not one to turn the other cheek for an additional slap, but I will express myself like this:P

HEY...where's my tongue sticking out?
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Old 12-12-2007, 09:35 PM   #11
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Flyest, I suspect your problem has ceased to exist. Cruiser Log is one of the world's most credible and well read forums on cruising (both under sail and power). I cannot subsequently imagine you will be bothered by members of the cruising fraternity.

Just a quick note on backpackers. There would not be a tourism body in the world who would risk seriously offending them. They are the mainstay of many tourism economies and despite what their detractors may say, they have a high disposable income.....it is simply that they try to avoid spending their money with w-anchors!

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Old 12-13-2007, 04:54 AM   #12
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Pricked a few consciences eh?

I figured to do as much - as others have stated - more than a grain of truth in the statements.

You want to offend someone - tell them a lie you want to offend EVERYONE - tell them the truth!

I am the mamanger here & I determine the policy for this Island in that capacity.

The whole point of the post, was to see what discussion ensued, and from that, set my own Policy based on whether the advice from a fellow manager from further down the coast in the same company, with 40 years experience, was sound.

It appears from the responses so far, that his opinion was sound, and of course that will in turn affect my policy determination with regard to provision of service to cruising yacht sailors who might pass in future.

Good seamanship & professional seagoing courtesy would dictate that we provide shelter and refuge to any seafarer in need - however anything beyond that it at my discression.

I will deal with it on a case bye case basis.

If you clearly don't want my input here - please don't keep sending me emails imploring me to post!

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Flywest,

Dear registered member,

Another year is almost over and many will be taking their annual holidays at this time. Have a wonderful break, a Merry Christmas and please - SAFE sailing.

The CruiserLog forums (www.cruiserlog.com) have grown rapidly during this last year, thanks mainly to the new forum software and the great contributions in the discussions by the members. If you have not visited for a while, login again and see just how useful these forums are.

The CruiserLog Forum community has also started a new WORLD Cruising and Sailing WIKI (links from the forum) which is now well underway. This WIKI is being developed "by Cruisers for Cruisers' - all members are able to contribute and share information for the benefit of all. This is a fantastic initiative to build a "World Cruising Guide" that is always up-to-date (unlike a printed publication) that all cruisers can freely access. "Grab a page and build it!"

Have a merry Christmas and a wonderful sailing 2008.

From the Administrator, Moderators and all other members.

http://www.cruiserlog.com
Quite frankly so far it appears to be a forum run by amateurs, that supports and makes excuses for, poor seamanship, and is NOT the kind of place any professional in the marine industry would want to be associated with or support.

Cheers.
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Old 12-13-2007, 05:49 AM   #13
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Pricked a few consciences eh?

In your opinion

I figured to do as much - as others have stated - more than a grain of truth in the statements.

As others have stated, there are rotten eggs everywhere

You want to offend someone - tell them a lie you want to offend EVERYONE - tell them the truth!

An unsupported claim. What is the relevance?

I am the mamanger here & I determine the policy for this Island in that capacity.

No one is arguing with you about that - at least not here. Your little sandbank - your prerogative

The whole point of the post, was to see what discussion ensued, and from that, set my own Policy based on whether the advice from a fellow manager from further down the coast in the same company, with 40 years experience, was sound.

Judging by the replies you evoked your ability to deduce the truth seems to be inhibited by a preconceived misunderstanding. Why let facts interfere with an inacurate theory?

It appears from the responses so far, that his opinion was sound, and of course that will in turn affect my policy determination with regard to provision of service to cruising yacht sailors who might pass in future.

I would say that you will be seeing very few, if any, cruising yachts in the future.

Good seamanship & professional seagoing courtesy would dictate that we provide shelter and refuge to any seafarer in need - however anything beyond that it at my discression.

THE LAW dictates this! As for professional courtesey, or any form of courtesey for that matter, we have yet to see an indiction of it.

I will deal with it on a case bye case basis.

I think bye (not by) is the only word you will be hearing from cruisers with the exception of a few experlatives

If you clearly don't want my input here - please don't keep sending me emails imploring me to post!

We are interested of inputs, in a civil maner, from all connected to cruising.

So how about answering the questions and comments put to you or are we the only ones who are supposed to reply?

Quite frankly so far it appears to be a forum run by amateurs, that supports and makes excuses for, poor seamanship, and is NOT the kind of place any professional in the marine industry would want to be associated with or support.

Yes, we who run this board are amateurs. None of us receivs any form of payment for what we do so, in that sense we are amateurs. We do this because we enjoy what we are doing but mostly because we want to provide fellow cruisers with a warm and friendly haven on the internet. A place where open discussions can take place without such insulting remarks as charactarise your posts. I would request you to moderate your comments in the future.

Now, perhaps you will, as you refer to your profssionalism, be so kind as to give us some facts? What professional maritime qualifications do you hold? Certificates of competency etc.?

I can counter and refute your statement regarding professionals in the marine industry not wanting to be associated with this forum directly as I am a professional. I hold a Class I (ship master's) certificate of competency; I hold a marine engineers (motor) class III certificate; I hold a comission as a commander in the Coast Guard; I hold a maritime rescue coordinator's (MRCC) certificate as well as a SAR OSC certificate; I have 38 years of professional maritime experience and more sailing yachts. I would call myself a professional without hesitation and I am honoured, pleased and proud to be associated with this forum.

aye

Stephen
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Old 12-13-2007, 07:26 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flywest View Post
I am the mamanger here & I determine the policy for this Island in that capacity.
Then why did you have to ask another manager about mooring BS?

You may be real... but your post is not! IMO
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