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Old 10-07-2008, 01:36 AM   #29
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9600 and falling....
Whoa-ho...it was quite a day today. Whew. Picking up the pieces I see that maybe, yes, maybe the money in my retirement fund is still there to retire when I'm...ummm. oh...93?

On the other hand, some of my "inverse" funds (ones that go up when the s&p go down, etc, they're doing great. Good thing they're the ones paying for the boat rebuild
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Old 10-07-2008, 01:38 PM   #30
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Whoa-ho...it was quite a day today. Whew...
Though I am loosing a TON is retirement plans, I have had a certain amount of money stashed away in bonds and such to buy my Catamaran, now this market is definitely making it more affordable for me to get what I want not what I can afford. So I guess every cloud has a silver lining

Case in point, I got an email yesterday from Lagoon that they have knocked $59,000 off the price of their 42ft. Still not enough for me to buy one, but they sure are proud of those things ...

A friend of mine owns a Catamaran business and when I went to see him last year he had all his manufacturing slots filled through the 3rd quarter of 2011. I just heard that most of those orders have been canceled and the deposits forfeited and he has barely enough work to keep everyone busy. Hell at least he is working.

the sad thing about all this is that I may be able to buy the Cat I want but I will have to work until 2055 to start cruising ...
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Old 10-07-2008, 09:21 PM   #31
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Dow @ 9458 down 496 on the day.

What is that sound I hear???
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Old 10-07-2008, 10:06 PM   #32
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Dow @ 9458 down 496 on the day.

What is that sound I hear???
Maybe a flushing toilet? Sorry, Head?

Looks like the $750+ billion bailout is working like a charm!?

Leave it to Washington to rush to judgement on a bandaid fix for the American economy! This is a JOKE!

Congradulations former fellow Americans, we are now citizens of the "Socialist Republic of the United States"!

Have a great day!

Back to work on the boat for me...
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Old 10-08-2008, 06:19 AM   #33
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Congradulations former fellow Americans, we are now citizens of the "Socialist Republic of the United States"!
It may well be an improvement on capitalist USA.

I come from what I believe to be a real socialist country, Sweden, where we have predominanty had socialist governments during my lifetime (although we have a right wing, highly tancient government at the moment) and the economy is in good shape - and would be in a far better shape if it was not dragged down by other failing economies. As a small country we have little say in the fate of the global economy.

Maybe our friends accross the Atlantic are confusing socialist with communist? It would not be the first time.

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Old 10-08-2008, 02:31 PM   #34
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It may well be an improvement on capitalist USA.

Maybe our friends across the Atlantic are confusing socialist with communist? It would not be the first time.
I think you have a point there. I have yet to meet a capitalist who refuses to accept his social security benefits when he reaches (62, 65, 70). Yeah, capitalists are that until their own money is involved.

sorry for cynicism.
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Old 10-08-2008, 08:00 PM   #35
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I think you have a point there. I have yet to meet a capitalist who refuses to accept his social security benefits when he reaches (62, 65, 70). Yeah, capitalists are that until their own money is involved.

sorry for cynicism.
Just to make sure that you understand where the social security $ comes from; it comes frome the people whom collect it when they turn 62, 65, 70. That money is thier money! They paid into it thier entire lives, if you don't pay into it , guess what...No Social Security check! I have been paying into my SS since I started working at 16 yrs of age! You better believe that I will want it back when I am old enough to collect it. After all, it's MY $!

I lived in Canada for 9 years as well as Bolivia for 3, I know what socialism does to people, it makes them depend on someone else to get what they need. That's not what America was designed to be like. I take care of my business and don't need any handouts from a single person. I live a very simple life and every check I get a big percentage taken out by the government to pay for the lazy people that hang on my coat tails. It's the irresponsible people in Washington and the greedy people living off credit cards and buying overvalued properties that are the root cause of what is happening. People that sink thier savings into Wall Street and "gamble" with thier retirement money by letting the corrupt CEO's make the decisions for their future who are hurting right now. I am happy to say that my meager existance will not be teribbly affected by this. I guess not being greedy is finally starting to pay off...

I also find it interesting how people love to hate the USA, especially when the American people quit buying imported products and it affects other countries economy's as well. Seems kida hippocritical, America is ok when the American people spend thier money in a forgien country but when America falls on hard times, " We deserve it..." Seems to be what I hear from many people living abroad. Probably people that aren't even citizens of the USA.

There's my "rant" for the day...Heard of any good stocks lately? LOL!
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For the truth is that I already know as much about my fate as I need to know. The day will come when I will die. So the only matter of consequence before me is what I will do with my alloted time. I can remain on shore, paralyzed with fear, or I can raise my sails and dip and soar in the breeze.

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Old 10-08-2008, 09:12 PM   #36
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What is the difference between socialism and communism? Socialism and communism are alike in that both are systems of production for use based on public ownership of the means of production and centralized planning. Socialism grows directly out of capitalism; it is the first form of the new society. Communism is a further development or "higher stage" of socialism.

From each according to his ability, to each according to his deeds (socialism). From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs (communism).

No, I'm NOT confused.
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For the truth is that I already know as much about my fate as I need to know. The day will come when I will die. So the only matter of consequence before me is what I will do with my alloted time. I can remain on shore, paralyzed with fear, or I can raise my sails and dip and soar in the breeze.

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Old 10-08-2008, 11:02 PM   #37
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What is the difference between socialism and communism? Come on! Which planet are you on? Communism and socialism are worlds apart. Communism = everything is owned by all, Socialism = ownership is, for the most part, private but there is a communal responsibility.

The USA has dabbled in socialism but, mark well, only dabbled. Capitalism does not appear to be working and when things go wrong one blames other systems, Why? Forget the rhetoric, We get that from everybody but look at what happens in reality. Why is the US falling apart finacially at the moment? Why did those who suffered fron the flooding in New Orleans not get the help they needed? Why are the common people in America who are loosing their homes afetr following the advice of bankes not getting help? And this whilst those who gave the bad advice earend fat sallaries and probably will depart with generous "golden handshakes".

Come on. Get real. The fundamental problem is that the capitalistic system, in order to generate greater profits, encouraged people to spend beyond their means. The responsible ( and yet still capitalisic) system would encourage people to save for what they want but cannot afford today. The global problem was created when the US became the global importer on credit. Do not blame small third world countries for that but blame the US which was writing cheques they did not have the cash to cover.

Remember, it was not I who wrote that you are now citizens of the Soviet Republic of the United States. Nor would I even suggest that you were but what I did say is that Americans, in general, do not know the difference between socialism and communism. Yes, socialism grew from capitalism, but did not endorse capitalism, whereas communism grew from despotism.

However, I am not looking for an argument of the pros and conc of differing ideologies but simply stating that those complaining most bitterly over the fall of the stock market are those who most intensly supported the system. Ironic is it not? The bottom line is that you should not gamble with money you cannot afford to loose.

Aye // Stephen
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Old 10-09-2008, 12:12 AM   #38
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What is the difference between socialism and communism? Come on! Which planet are you on? Communism and socialism are worlds apart. Communism = everything is owned by all, Socialism = ownership is, for the most part, private but there is a communal responsibility .... Stephen
"Why is the US falling apart finacially at the moment? Why did those who suffered fron the flooding in New Orleans not get the help they needed? Why are the common people in America who are loosing their homes afetr following the advice of bankes not getting help? And this whilst those who gave the bad advice earend fat sallaries and probably will depart with generous "golden handshakes"."

Those "poor" people that suffered in New Orleans were there on thier own accord! They were told to leave and decided to stay. Regardless of what you think, those people were there because they were simply to foolish to leave and they paid the price. It is not the governments job to "babysit" fools! What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? I don't know...

The people who are loosing thier homes are people who also made wrong choices! When I buy a property, I buy at a LOW price and sell at a HIGH price. That is how you make money... Those people who bought overvalued properties at a high initial rate that was only going higher deserve to loose "thier" houses! I don't live in a big house because I am smart enough to know that I can't afford it when times get tough...There are not supposed to be any guarantees in this country when it comes to stupid decisions. This "bailout" changes that. Now, fools feel entitled to some sort of compensation for the decisions they make....

I'm not even going to comment any further about the socialist/ communist thing because it will never end, regardless, I know what I'm talking about...Remember, I'm not the fool loosing his house!
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Old 10-09-2008, 12:18 AM   #39
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AIG Taps Fed For Another $38 Billion -- So They Can Go To Another Resort? (AIG)

Joe Weisenthal | Oct 8, 08 4:35 PM

It seems AIG's $440,000 luxury junket hasn't precluded itself from the continued largesse of the taxpayers. Here's the official announcement:

The Federal Reserve Board has authorized the Federal Reserve Bank of New York to borrow securities from certain regulated U.S. insurance subsidiaries of the American International Group (AIG), under section 13(3) of the Federal Reserve Act.

Under this program, the New York Fed will borrow up to $37.8 billion in investment-grade, fixed-income securities from AIG in return for cash collateral. These securities were previously lent by AIG’s insurance company subsidiaries to third parties.

As expected, drawdowns to date under the existing $85 billion New York Fed loan facility have been used, in part, to settle transactions with counterparties returning these third-party securities to AIG. This new program will allow AIG to replenish liquidity used in settling those transactions, while providing enhanced credit protection to the New York Fed and U.S. taxpayers in the form of a security interest in these securities.

You have to love the language, of course. It's the New York Fed ostensibly borrowing from AIG, not the other way around.

Update: And we're seeing now, the company has yet another resort event planned*. From Bloomberg:

American International Group Inc., castigated by lawmakers for hosting a $440,000 conference days after an $85 billion federal bailout, plans to hold another gathering for brokers next week.The event, at the Ritz-Carlton in California's Half Moon Bay, aims to ``motivate and educate'' about 150 independent agents who sell AIG coverage to high-end clients, said spokesman Nicholas Ashooh. ``These sorts of sales meetings are an essential function,'' he said. ``We have them around the world all the time.''

*In fairness, AIG has to be able to function as a business, even if that means hosting occasional events at high-end locales. These bailouts are doomed to fail if every corporate action will be judged on this level -- and yet, now that they owe their very existence to taxpayers, this harsh light is inevitable.
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Old 10-09-2008, 12:29 AM   #40
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AIG Taps Fed For Another $38 Billion -- So They Can Go To Another Resort? (AIG)
I can see the line outside the Fed growing as we speak! I suspect the "Big Three" auto manufacturers and the ever troubled Airlines lining up next for a bailout...
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Old 10-09-2008, 01:50 AM   #41
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Just to make sure that you understand where the social security $ comes from;


Gracious! must of hit a nerve there...

You know, one of the things that many Americans love to think is that they have alone paid "into" social security and they're getting "out" what they put in. It is not "your" money, nor is it "mine" but it is money that our government has collected from us and our employers equally in order to assure that we and other Americans (working and disabled) have a minimum level of income when we can no longer work due to age or long term illness. The social security "net" was set up to protect people (mostly at the lowest income levels) from falling into poverty in their old age w/o a pension plan. It was never set up so that one would get back exactly what one put into it. As it turns out, even people who are not at low income levels do get back way MORE than they put into it. This is because benefits under SS have been quite high and to keep up with inflation the SS COLA ends up making the SS payouts a lot more than what the person paid in. We are all fortunate to have the system but it is a costly system with each generation paying MORE into it and getting less than the previous generation gets. The most generous benefits are to folks who are now in their 80's and the least generous to folks working now who are in their 20's. Our children and their children will be shouldering a great burden with the SS benefits of all the generations before them.

about other things you touched on...



It's the irresponsible people in Washington and the greedy people living off credit cards and buying overvalued properties that are the root cause of what is happening. People that sink thier savings into Wall Street and "gamble" with thier retirement money by letting the corrupt CEO's make the decisions for their future who are hurting right now.


I assume what you mean by "irresponsible" is that there should be heavier oversight of lending/housing/credit/financial accounting....etc..etc..etc...I'd suggest that perhaps you think about the fact that most Americans don't want "oversight" and regulation until AFTER a big disaster and then they want too much over reaction is big. We Americans complain, out of one side of our mouth, about too much regulation and complain out the other about not enough oversight! We can't have it both ways...

Won't comment on those "greedy" folks with the credit cards and $$$ properties because I figure they indeed are at the root of some of this. However, there few places for Americans to invest and get a return above passbook savings unless they're willing to purchase real estate as well as stock, mutual funds, etc. ...ummm... 401(k) and retirement accounts aren't exactly available for "gambling" so don't know where you're going there. Also, just because the CEOs are getting rich doesn't mean they're corrupt. It just means we have an unbalanced reward system in place: we pay people like professional athletes, movie stars, and CEOs of Fortune 500 companies a lot of money whereas the working stiff gets well...stiffed.



I am happy to say that my meager existance will not be teribbly affected by this. I guess not being greedy is finally starting to pay off...


Glad to hear that.





I also find it interesting how people love to hate the USA, especially when the American people quit buying imported products and it affects other countries economy's as well. Seems kida hippocritical, America is ok when the American people spend thier money in a forgien country but when America falls on hard times, " We deserve it..." Seems to be what I hear from many people living abroad. Probably people that aren't even citizens of the USA.


Well, it seems to be human nature to have issue with people who have "more" than one does. Finding fault is often far too easy and America is a good target these days. Nothing like having President Bush tell us to go shopping and "spend" our way out of recession following 9/11. Think of how that looked to the rest of the world. Also, our society encourages people to consume excessively in all ways: fuel/big cars, big houses, lots of consumer goods. It is excessive and it is not "becoming" for us to suddenly have all these problems because of such excesses.



There's my "rant" for the day...Heard of any good stocks lately? LOL!


look to exchange traded inverse funds like... DUG (inverse on oil), SKF (inverse on the S&P 500), FXP (inverse on H-shares), etc. They provide a high-risk volatile way to make money when their segment of the market is falling.

Have a good evening
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Old 10-09-2008, 09:23 PM   #42
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WHOOSH!!!!!!!!!!

DOW down 590pts in afterhours to 8766

Now down 678.91pts to 8579...I think a 5 year low.
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