Heating On Board

[Aquaria]

Well, up here in the northern hemisphere winter will be here soon.

If boats stay in the water and are (ocasionally) used, it is good to have some heating on board.

Besides the occasional use of the electric heater, some boats have more sophisticated heating systems.

Here is our solution:

For many years now we have a danish Refleks diesel-stove . It is comparable to today's 66MV-model , so actually it is a central heating unit - we could connect radiators to the stove, but have not done that yet.

This heater is just using diesel and no electric power - therefor it is very quiet and it just uses between half a gallon and up to a gallon a day, when it is really cold (freezing at night).

The pre-heating needs to be done with alcohol - this needs some time and patience to find the right mixture of first alcohol and then adding diesel. With too much diesel in the heater, when it is still too cold, you can cause a hell of a fire once the diesel-ignition temperature is reached... So, firing up the stove has to be done with great care.

But if the stove is running, it creates a very comfortable, dry heat throughout the main cabin and it can run for days!

There are a few draw backs: It does not heat the fwd cabin, it stays cold and moisture developes on the cabin ceiling. And we cannot use it while sailing, as the stove does not cope with heeling...

And as the stove is placed in the center of the boat (close to the mast support), the chimney on deck is situated close to the mast. Under certain wind conditions (wind from starboard abeam) the wind pressure on the mast results in pushing the exhausts down the chimney. But we solve this problem in turning the boat around in the berth.

And for our peace of mind we installed a Cabon-Monoxide-detector - so we can keep it running even over night.

What do you have?

What do you like?

Advantages and draw backs of the own heating systems?

Uwe

SY AQUARIA

[redbopeep]

Hi Uwe,

Thanks for bringing up this topic. The Refleks brand diesel heaters are very well known for dealing with heeling quite nicely--a little tray as I recall. Why do you feel it doesn't work well for use underway?

We've got CO sensors all over the place--they're dirt cheap and easy "insurance." Do replace them from time-to-time as they aren't supposed to last and function well for more than a few years. We write our own person "expiry" date on the back with a sharpie (36 months from date of purchase) and keep to that schedule of replacement. We made that habit while living on land with gas appliances/heating.

We're on a dock at present and it's not too cold here (in the 40's F at night, 50's-60's F during the day) so we just turn on a little ceramic (electric) heater to warm up the boat. However, we have the following options for heating the boat:

+ Two (dockside use only) ceramic heaters 1.2kW-1.5kW (low-high);

+ A Dickinson Newport diesel bulkhead heater/fireplace in the main saloon LINK

We haven't used the Newport--we saw it in use on another cruisers' boat and he sold it to us as he was going to the tropics "forever more" and we were going North to colder climates "for a long time"



Other things which we heat the boat with include--

+ A Taylors model 030 kerosene cooking stove which happens to also do a wonderful job of heating the boat. It is not vented and while the alcohol pre-heat does give us about 40 ppm CO for the brief pre-heat period of 3 minutes or so (CO sensor within 20" of the stove), the Taylors Kerosene stove seems to go for hours with no measurable CO to set of the sensor. Here's a link to the Taylors site. Ours is an older version of this stove--the door is slightly different.



+ A large Shipmate 134 wood/coal/diesel cookstove. We use it with wood and coal but don't have the diesel insert set up for use. This stove requires a fan above it in the cabin to circulate the heat which comes off of it. Otherwise it is very hot in the one corner of the galley but so-so everywhere else. Here is a link to the "new" Shipmate stoves available. I need to take a pic of our stove in place... here's a pic of it being installed by hubby



+ Surprisingly, we do quite well heating with our Alladin kerosene lantern. It can keep the stateroom warm or the charthouse warm. It doesn't do much for the combined main saloon and galley area. We have other lanterns including a lovely Trawler lamp and what is called a "yacht lamp", but the Alladin with its mantle system is the only one which puts out lots of light and HEAT! and without notable CO. The Trawler lamp doesn't burn as clean and we can get CO readings while using it. Here is a link to the manufacturer site. This lamp can be used while underway but I haven't done so.



+ Finally, when we're sitting on a damp-but-not-too-cold-day in the chart house, the windows will begin to fog up. I have a candle holder that will hold three candles. I use vegetable-based stearin candles (see IKEA link here) which burn bright, clean, and don't bend or melt in hot environments. Can't use the particular holder underway--I do have a couple little hanging candle lanterns which can keep one candle going and could be used while underway.



Keeping the boat dry really requires some sort of heat--even a candle.

[Aquaria]

Originally Posted by redbopeep

... The Refleks brand diesel heaters are very well known for dealing with heeling quite nicely--a little tray as I recall. Why do you feel it doesn't work well for use underway?

We've got CO sensors all over the place--they're dirt cheap and easy "insurance." Do replace them from time-to-time as they aren't supposed to last and function well for more than a few years. We write our own person "expiry" date on the back with a sharpie (36 months from date of purchase) and keep to that schedule of replacement. We made that habit while living on land with gas appliances/heating.

...

+ Two (dockside use only) ceramic heaters 1.2kW-1.5kW (low-high);

+ A Dickinson Newport diesel bulkhead heater/fireplace in the main saloon...

+ A Taylors model 030L kerosene cooking stove which happens to also do a wonderful job of heating the boat. It is not vented and while the alcohol pre-heat does give us about 40 ppm CO for the brief pre-heat period of 3 minutes or so (CO sensor within 20" of the stove), the Taylors Kerosene stove seems to go for hours with no measurable CO to set of the sensor. ...

+ A large Shipmate 134 wood/coal/diesel cookstove. We use it with wood and coal but don't have the diesel insert set up for use. This stove requires a fan above it in the cabin to circulate the heat which comes off of it. Otherwise it is very hot in the one corner of the galley but so-so everywhere else.

+ Surprisingly, we do quite well heating with our Alladin kerosene lantern. It can keep the stateroom warm or the charthouse warm. It doesn't do much for the combined main saloon and galley area. We have other lanterns including a lovely Trawler lamp and what is called a "yacht lamp", but the Alladin with its mantle system is the only one which puts out lots of light and HEAT! and without notable CO. The Trawler lamp doesn't burn as clean and we can get CO readings while using it.

+ Finally, when we're sitting on a damp-but-not-too-cold-day in the chart house, the windows will begin to fog up. I have a candle holder that will hold three candles. I use vegetable-based stearin candles (see IKEA link here) which burn bright, clean, and don't bend or melt in hot environments. Can't use the particular holder underway--I do have a couple little hanging candle lanterns which can keep one candle going and could be used while underway.

Keeping the boat dry really requires some sort of heat--even a candle.

Very nice heaters you have. Not just that they do a great job - they look great too!

With shoreside power we also use a ceramic heater with 440/1500W (at 230V)

and thank you for the advice to change the CO-sensor! Haven't thought of that yet, but it makes great sence!

And now to the heeling problem:

The heater itself is not so much the problem, but the fuel metering valve does not cope with heeling or alot of erratic movement: This special valve is originally constructed for landbased oil heaters and (I have not tried it, but heard and read about it) heeling and severe movement results in erratic reactions from too much diesel input (= too much heat) to not enough diesel and the heater goes out...

Would be interesting to hear some more first hand experience on REFLEKS heaters used under way (on smaller boats with some more movement and heeling)!

Here is our arrangement:



(you may have noticed that we have a TAYLOR chimney connected to our Refleks-heater: Works fine!)

and here is the detail of the fuel metering valve...



and here you can see another little home made problem: We did not connect the valve's overflow outlet (just below the diesel inlet) to a spill tank. So, when sailing hard, diesel is dripping out of the overflow. To avoid that we learned to close the valve right at the tank before turning off the heater and gradually turn up the fuel metering valve until the heater stops burning by itself - then the fuel metering valve is comletely empty!

And finally we too have two kerosene lamps that indeed add a great deal to the comfort but here we learned not to use just any kerosene: Years ago we bought some rather cheap (red) kerosene in Portugal and it smelled awful (some additives?). After that we returned to the uncolored, very clean and rather expensive kerosene we also use in our kerosene stove with much better results: nice light, warm and no smell...

Oh yes, then we have a Taylor 079D (diesel heater) in the storage that waits to be installed in our small 18ft Caprice...

Uwe

SY Aquaria

[redbopeep]

That's a nice bulkhead heater--the 079D.

The "clean" burning kerosene is K1 and we use it exclusively as well.

My older Taylors isn't as pretty as the new ones--but it still is a handsome cook stove which also works well for heating. One of the reasons we're using it for heating is that 100% of the heat provided is ending up IN the boat. As long as I'm not seeing measurable CO levels or soot, I'm happy with that. The vented heaters all have the issue of losing some heat out the stack. It is hard to estimate how much since that info is based on a particular installation. I'm thinking at best case we only lose 30% and worse case it could be 50% of heat going out the chimney. I haven't researched this matter thoroughly enough yet.

Since we're in a marina for the winter, I just did the cost comparison between using the Taylors for heating and the electric (ceramic) heater(s). Here in this marina, electricity is 16.5 cents/kWH. What I get is that the break even point for using kerosene is with kero at $6.50/gallon. The last kero I purchased was last spring (5 gallons) at approx. $5/gallon. I need to find a local bulk provider of the K1 and get pricing here where we are now. Buying via a home store is usually twice the price so finding the bulk supplier is really needed. Last winter, we heated almost exclusively with the little kerosene lantern since it wasn't really cold where we were--just wet.

If you have any data or info on heat loss out chimneys, let me know!

Best to you,

[Aquaria]

Originally Posted by redbopeep

...

The vented heaters all have the issue of losing some heat out the stack. It is hard to estimate how much since that info is based on a particular installation. I'm thinking at best case we only lose 30% and worse case it could be 50% of heat going out the chimney. I haven't researched this matter thoroughly enough yet.

Since we're in a marina for the winter, I just did the cost comparison between using the Taylors for heating and the electric (ceramic) heater(s). Here in this marina, electricity is 16.5 cents/kWH. What I get is that the break even point for using kerosene is with kero at $6.50/gallon. ...

If you have any data or info on heat loss out chimneys, let me know!

Best to you,

I did not yet measure the exhaust temperatures right at the cabin ceiling fitting.

Running the heater at a setting of about one third of its capacity (creating a comfortable temperature in the main cabin - 21°C/70°F)

the temperature at the cabin roof fitting is below 100°C/212°F (Wet finger test), the stainless steel chimney pipe is hotter, but nothing compared to the initial temperature just on top of the heater. So, the radiation of the chimney itself is quite impressive and it is advisable to install a heater as low as possible in the cabin, giving room for a long chimney WITHIN the cabin.

Have seen an installation of a Taylor diesel heater in another boat half way up between floor and ceiling and this system had a too short chimney to secure the desired upward flow of the exhausts. As a chimney has to have a certain length to create this desired upwind, there was an (even insulated!!) chimney extension necessary on the outside on the cabin to get the exhausts outside!

Running the diesel heater for one day uses about a gallon on fuel (5,20€ /6,90$)

Using the electric (ceramic) heater for a whole day set at 800W will add up to 19.2Kwh and as we have to pay about 0,23 €/0,30$ for the Kwh, 24 hours of electric heating will cost 6,14 € /8,13$.

So, it actually is still cheaper to run the diesel heater even with fuel from the gas station (diesel fuel for household heating is tax reduced but hard to come by when talking about little quantities and when having a diesel engine on board it is not a good idea to have jerry cans with tax reduced diesel on board ...which has a different color)

But as we don't (yet) pay the marina by the Kwh used, we rather use the electric heater than firing up the diesel heater.

But marinas start installing individual metering systems, so that we pay by the actually used Kwhs - then it makes sence to use the diesel heater.

Another hot topic: How do you handle the fresh air intake for the fuel burning heater as we are not connecting the heaters air intake to the outside of the cabin?? My Refleks has this feature on the back, as it was originally ment to be installed in a closed up compartment functioning as a central heating unit.

Nothing can be as tight as a boat with all hatches closed, to keep the heat inside. So, besides having installed the already mentioned CO-detector we always keep the dorade-vents and other ventilation holes in the ships ends open.

Uwe

SY Aquaria

[HandyBilly]

I just saw a very nice wood stove on somebody's boat. It was called the "hobbit" and was very small. I looked up the company called Salamander and learned they had another even smaller one called the "pipsqueak" It looks very useful in a boat. Link Salamander Small Stoves - Pipsqueak Stove, Small Cast Iron Stove

[Aquaria]

what a nice stove!!!
an attractive alternative to oil burning stoves when sailing for example in Northern Scandinavia, West Coast Canada, Alaska or shorelines of similar characters: lots of wood.
And wood on board is a pretty safe burning material, it can be cheap to get and therefore is getting more and more attractive as the diesel prices go up and it is environmentally neutral.

The disadvantages: Woot has a caloric value of around 4,2kWh/Kg as Diesel has 11,8 kWh/Kg. So, you need fout times more wood than diesel... making wooden stoves more attractive to bigger boats, if you don't want to pile up lots of wood on deck.

And did you get any info on how often the "hobbit" has to be reloaded?

Nevertheless - a very nice stove in a setting of your yacht being tied tied up to a remote pontoon somewhere north in the waters of Vancouver Island, the woodstove burning, creating a nice, warm and cozy atmosphere... There is maybe no better way to end a sailing season in far northern (or southern) waters with temperate climates.

Uwe
SY Aquaria

[redbopeep]

Btu/lb or /cu ft --kero or diesel wins out!

However, we have a solid fuel (coal and wood burning) stove and though dealing with wood is sometimes a bit much though we love using it. We had so much good hardwood left over from our boat's rebuild that we heated for two winters with it (but, had to store it off boat!). When that started running low, I sought out a supplier of blacksmithing coal. Here on the west coast US we don't have that wonderful hard, nondusty anthracite coal which is readily procured on the US east coast. Western coal is typically bit-coal (soft and dirty) so seeking out blacksmithing coal gives something halfway between the cleaner anthracite and dirty bit coals. A really nice thing about coal is that you can purchase it in 40-50 lb bags and store it in small plastic bags in the bilge. It is not harmed by water and will burn quite readily even if wet.

I save these 2 lb plastic jars that Hubby loves to buy dried fruit gorp, nuts, peanuts etc in. I store coal in the bilge in those jars as well as storing coal in heavy-duty garbage disposal bags there in the bilge.

We've been using kerosene to heat with this winter (as mentioned above) and it has worked very well. We've run two of the lanterns pretty much full time. I did fabricate a large smoke bell above each chimney (essentially used a couple enamelware pot lids) to deflect the heat into the lower part of the boat. We also found ourselves using the lanterns sitting low on the floor so the heat was down low.

That little stoves looks like it would only last an hour or so without reloading. But--it's really cute.

[danblu]

If reliability was an issue the wood burner is the way to go. I like the Hobbit and love beachcombing. A little "pocket chainsaw" (pull saw) and a few paper bags to store the timber in. Some coal or even better coke for overnight warmth. Some places coal can be found on the beach! I have 2 fires going in the house right now, can't beat the smell and the sound, nice drying effect too.

[redbopeep]

Originally Posted by danblu

If reliability was an issue the wood burner is the way to go. I like the Hobbit and love beachcombing. A little "pocket chainsaw" (pull saw) and a few paper bags to store the timber in. Some coal or even better coke for overnight warmth. Some places coal can be found on the beach! I have 2 fires going in the house right now, can't beat the smell and the sound, nice drying effect too.

Love the smell of wood. Love the easy reliability of coal better!

Tonight is the first night in a couple months that I haven't run at least a kerosene lantern (with CO detector nearby!) in the stateroom for a cosy heat. We had a nice warm day in the 70's and it's 54F here tonight. Finally we might be seeing the beginnings of spring.

[sailorladd]

That is a fine looking stove, but for the cruisers that don't have the space or the money, try turning a clay flower pot upside down on your stove, at the lowest setting and see how the heat radiates about the cabin, as it dries out the damp from the air as well.

[sailorladd]

That's a BEAUTIFULLY varnished table!!

[bruceam12]

Hello, I'm new to this stuff. I was advised to the forum from a fellow Yachter! His name is Bevan and he's from New Zeland.
He found my site and wanted to purchase Firefly eco-friendly Safe N Green lamp oil. He asked me to check on shipping. WOW I told him it probably not good idea that it would be triple the cost of oil. He says he wants to try it because the fumes from parrafin oil was not tolerable. I sent him the oil and he replied a few days later "Gidday Bruce had a lovely weekend on the boat with the oil lamp warming the cabin...happy to give you a good review, where's the best place to post it? Have you thought about marketing the oil to yachties like myself? That's how I found out about it on a yacht cruising forum.. someone recommending it to others that love lamps but not the fumes!"


Thanks again
Bevan
So thats why I am here to give a shout out to you sailors and tell you a little about this fuel and oil.
Firefly Safe n GreenFirefly Safe & Green Fuel can be used in any wicked device, e.g., tiki torches, oil lamps, fire pots, oil candles, etc. It's smokeless, odorless, eco-friendly, non-toxic and sustainable. It's the one-fuel-does-it-all product. Go to Glass Candles, Oil Lamp | Lamp Oil | Organic | Eco-friendly to check out! Thank you for allowing me to share.

Originally Posted by redbopeep

Hi Uwe,

Thanks for bringing up this topic. The Refleks brand diesel heaters are very well known for dealing with heeling quite nicely--a little tray as I recall. Why do you feel it doesn't work well for use underway?

We've got CO sensors all over the place--they're dirt cheap and easy "insurance." Do replace them from time-to-time as they aren't supposed to last and function well for more than a few years. We write our own person "expiry" date on the back with a sharpie (36 months from date of purchase) and keep to that schedule of replacement. We made that habit while living on land with gas appliances/heating.

We're on a dock at present and it's not too cold here (in the 40's F at night, 50's-60's F during the day) so we just turn on a little ceramic (electric) heater to warm up the boat. However, we have the following options for heating the boat:

+ Two (dockside use only) ceramic heaters 1.2kW-1.5kW (low-high);

+ A Dickinson Newport diesel bulkhead heater/fireplace in the main saloon LINK

We haven't used the Newport--we saw it in use on another cruisers' boat and he sold it to us as he was going to the tropics "forever more" and we were going North to colder climates "for a long time"



Other things which we heat the boat with include--

+ A Taylors model 030 kerosene cooking stove which happens to also do a wonderful job of heating the boat. It is not vented and while the alcohol pre-heat does give us about 40 ppm CO for the brief pre-heat period of 3 minutes or so (CO sensor within 20" of the stove), the Taylors Kerosene stove seems to go for hours with no measurable CO to set of the sensor. Here's a link to the Taylors site. Ours is an older version of this stove--the door is slightly different.



+ A large Shipmate 134 wood/coal/diesel cookstove. We use it with wood and coal but don't have the diesel insert set up for use. This stove requires a fan above it in the cabin to circulate the heat which comes off of it. Otherwise it is very hot in the one corner of the galley but so-so everywhere else. Here is a link to the "new" Shipmate stoves available. I need to take a pic of our stove in place... here's a pic of it being installed by hubby



+ Surprisingly, we do quite well heating with our Alladin kerosene lantern. It can keep the stateroom warm or the charthouse warm. It doesn't do much for the combined main saloon and galley area. We have other lanterns including a lovely Trawler lamp and what is called a "yacht lamp", but the Alladin with its mantle system is the only one which puts out lots of light and HEAT! and without notable CO. The Trawler lamp doesn't burn as clean and we can get CO readings while using it. Here is a link to the manufacturer site. This lamp can be used while underway but I haven't done so.



+ Finally, when we're sitting on a damp-but-not-too-cold-day in the chart house, the windows will begin to fog up. I have a candle holder that will hold three candles. I use vegetable-based stearin candles (see IKEA link here) which burn bright, clean, and don't bend or melt in hot environments. Can't use the particular holder underway--I do have a couple little hanging candle lanterns which can keep one candle going and could be used while underway.



Keeping the boat dry really requires some sort of heat--even a candle.

[haiqu]

Cold weather is the reason I bought a second ferro yacht in Brisbane for winter while the first is being renovated in Sydney. Little did I know it was going to be the wettest, coldest winter in Brisbane in living memory. Good thing I have warm clothing. Brrrr.

[searanger50]

Autumn is here in Eastbourne in the UK. The days are shorter, the first big gales have arrived and all of a sudden it's bloody cold. It doesn't help that our boat was bought from a couple that had spent 21 years cruising warmer climates. ur heating is currently 230V shore supply oil filled radiators (partially effective if you're sitting pretty dame close). Diesel fired systems (Webasto, Eberspatcher) are very expensive so we are considering a Propex gas Fired system. Is anyone else using this heating? How good or bad is it?
Answers before we freeze please.
Kevin & Sandy.

[Joe Hill IV]

Danish reflex diesel stoves have a good reputation

[redbopeep]

We came very close to buying a Reflex for the main saloon. They seem very nice. The only reason we didn't was because an excellent deal came up locally on a used Newport.

We had a Force 10 propane heater on our previous boat. Didn't like it. Though it was vented, it still managed to bring a lot of water/moisture in the combustion process. Damp heat. Diesel is more carefully vented (I think) and ends up with dryer (warmer) heat.

You could consider a very small wood burning stove. Up front costs for wood burning (some also burn coal) stoves are less than diesel ones will be. In the UK, there are several small stoves available at good cost that we cannot get here in the USA.

Cheaper still are the small kerosene heaters (baby versions of the ones you see on construction sites or on farms). We lived with two of those for 2 years in our HOUSE when we lived in Japan. Cheaper than running our heat pumps. Just make sure and get a CO alarm with meter and use it. They will cost only $40 to $200 new and sometimes less. The round wicks they use are often $10 to $30 so if you buy a used one, make sure the wick is still good.

Other tricks we learned while living in Japan (cold, damp place in the winter) was that we could live pretty happy with indoor temps at 55F if we would wear warm clothes (get your longjohns!) and have good bedding. There we slept on a featherbed atop the mattress and under a down comforter. On the boat, we still sleep atop a featherbed (and no it doesn't get damp) and under a down comforter. Great way to stay warm at night.

Using small kero lanterns will heat up the boat a little bit as well. Not "warm" but passable and that's an easy, cheap thing to do. Again, invest in a CO detector/alarm.

Fair winds.

[searanger50]

Hi,
We now have a propex HS 2800 forced air heater and I have to admit it's great. It was simple to fit and it warms our boat well though so far it has not really got very cold this year.

[Brent Swain]

I have been living aboard, mostly in BC, for most of the last 40 years, keeping warm with an airtight wood stove. I have got up to 14 hours burn time ,on a load. The beaches here are piled high with driftwood , free for the taking ( a very pleasant way to spend your time). 15 minutes work gives me a weeks worth of free fuel. Most non urban ,full time liveaboards here use wood stoves.
I lived without a chain saw until about 4 year s ago, no problem.
I improved my axe and splitting maul by running several passes of hard surfacing weld along the cutting edges ,and resharpening it, being careful not to grind all the weld off.
The important thing is to make sure your stove is airtight and big enough. Tiny fireboxes are a curse.
No matter how damp your boat gets, an hour and a half with the wood stove running, and it is dry as a popcorn fart in a sand storm( as long as your boat is properly insulated)
Several of my clients have told me their boat is the most comfortable home they have ever lived in.
If yours is not, it can be. You are doing something wrong.