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Old 06-21-2010, 08:23 PM   #1
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Hello All,

I have an unusual issue that cropped up here recently since my last oil change. Having been using the boat regularly and while checking the oil one day, the oil seemed to be rising up the dipstick. Thinking that a bit strange, I again, performed an oil change, and after several hours of further use, noticed the same thing again. To clarify....there is no water in the oil (another potential problem that can happen) or it would be rather milky something like chocolate milk and its not.....it could be diesel, but it does not smell like diesel, but then it may not be able to be smelled anyway.

Perplexed, and thinking about it and doing some research, I came to the conclusion that the only thing that could be happening here is that there is a tear or hole in the diapragm inside the lift pump. Replacing that (and that was a blast considering the location and lack of access), used the boat all this weekend, and checking the oil today, found the same issue....now I am REALLY confused....I guess I now have a spare lift though...Jackpot!

So, its not water....cannot tell if it is diesel, but have an analysis cup coming to it can be analyzed by some far off engineer somewhere in Oz probably.... So the question is....has anyone else experienced this type of thing before? And if so, what the heck?

I have been told that it could also be the injector pump...but then, would it not be smoking like crazy? Its not....

HELP, PLEASE!!
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Old 06-21-2010, 09:05 PM   #2
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On the 2 items of evidence, ie.. OIL content increase and the lift pump diagnosis. Believe that when you do a compression test, one or more cylinders will show

a significant low PSI. The other test will be to check out the injectors in terms of spray atomization, a poor result here will mean diesel not being combusted.

Either of the above will result in unburnt diesel fuel being added to the lubrication oil - If the compression and oil rings are worn, that cylinder will not have sufficient compression to ignite the fuel and it will work its way past the rings.

An engine in good condition, PSI's should read around 450psi.
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Old 06-21-2010, 09:19 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MMNETSEA' date='21 June 2010 - 05:05 PM View Post

On the 2 items of evidence, ie.. OIL content increase and the lift pump diagnosis. Believe that when you do a compression test, one or more cylinders will show

a significant low PSI. The other test will be to check out the injectors in terms of spray atomization, a poor result here will mean diesel not being combusted.

Either of the above will result in unburnt diesel fuel being added to the lubrication oil - If the compression and oil rings are worn, that cylinder will not have sufficient compression to ignite the fuel and it will work its way past the rings.

An engine in good condition, PSI's should read around 450psi.
Thanks, MM....though I must ask, even if the engine runs like a top, no misses, sputters, misteps, no smoke, nothing out of the ordinary? Fact is, the engine starts first time everytime, and never misses a beat.

C
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Old 06-21-2010, 11:36 PM   #4
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Hi,

If the the increase in oil level was only noticed for the first time after an oil change,

and assuming that all the old oil was drained with the oil filler cap off, and assuming that the oil filter was replaced. Is it possible that you over filled the engine in the process, where the new oil when measured on the dip stick showed not yet full, then more oil was added until it showed full? How much oil does the filter hold?

On the premise that if one puts in say 6 pints of oil - and then drains this oil immediately, all one will measure is a tad less than 6 pints (a tiny amount retained in galleries) therefore if you get out 6.5 pints - the 0.5 will be diesel (water is easy to is easy to establish by letting the drained oil stand for some time, any water will separate -- whereas diesel will merely dilute)

Richard
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Old 12-23-2010, 01:24 PM   #5
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Hi Boomerang,

I have the same problem on my Perkins 4.108 on my boat in Greece. Engine ran fine all summer, then right at the end, the RPMs suddenly went up a few hundred, and a while later the oil pressure began to drop and oil rising a quart or two on the dipstick and thin. Obviously diesel in the oil.

I realise that the only connection points where oil and diesel come close are the lift pump, the injector pump and in the cylinders.

I replaced the lift pump and changed the oil, and all was fine for a few more hours of motoring, and then the RPMs jumped up again and the same thing happened with the oil.

I plan to go back to the boat next spring and pull the injector pump and have it serviced in Athens, but some people on the web suggest this could be due to worn rings, or stuck valves, (ie low compression) causing unburned fuel to end up in the sump. This happened so suddenly on my engine, on the last week of our summer cruise and the engine is still running great with no smoke, so I am hoping it is just the injector pump shaft seal, but would really like to hear how your issue was really resolved, rather than some of the theories that are out on the web.

I am trying to find an affordable compression tester for the 4.108 to take back with me, in case it is not the injector pump.

Many thanks.
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Old 12-23-2010, 03:39 PM   #6
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Howard, thanks for the note, and a Very Merry Christmas to you and yours!

Wow, bummer, I feel your pain. I went through this most of this year, and replaced two components; first the lift pump, and second the combo transmission/oil cooler. Neither corrected the problem, as that was not the issue. I was also seemingly losing ATF, so we thought the combo cooler was the problem...it was not.

My strong suggestion is that the next thing you do is to have an oil analysis done ASAP. My problem turned out to be antifreeze in the oil, NOT fuel, which was the original suspect. It turned out to be the head gasket where AF was seeping down through the galleys on the block which concurrently caused the rise in oil....about the same as the loss of AF. I still am not totally convinced that the problem is fixed....as after the head gasket replacement the Perkins manuals suggests running the engine about an hour, then taking it all apart again and re-torquing it down again...and then, running the engine somwhere between 30-50 hours, and re-torquing again. Real pain the backside...

The reason I say I am not convinced it is corrected is that although I ran the engine, I have not put 30-50 more hours on the engine since the last torque....just love sailing too much. The boat is now out of the water with no chance of running again until spring (we are currently on the Chesapeake for the winter), and only having put only about 15 hours on it, we did not torque again yet. Perhaps I will do that over the winter, and hope for the the best next year....

I too have had no compression issues at all...the engine starts immediately, every time....no smoke, no nothing to lead me to believe it, but the only other issue that I have researched could be issue is a cracked block....and that would not be good. You would think that a cracked block would lead to compression problems, but I have been told by a good friend that is a qualified mechanic that that, is not necessarily the case.....

Hope this helps, and please do let me know if you come up with something that I have not addressed here that solves your problem, just in case my remedy does not work.....though as I mentioned, I may not know until next season. I really want this fixed, as we are trying to head south in lat March....and I am just sick of dealing with it!

Merry Chrismas and Happy New Year!

Charles

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St Michaels, MD

USA
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Old 12-24-2010, 12:47 AM   #7
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Hi Charles,

Thanks for the update. Assume you are using the usual 50/50 AF/Water? And the AF is that designed for Diesel engines?

A test by adding some of the mixed AF with Oil in a glass jar, then seeing if it separates or not, would be one way of eliminating a cause.
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Old 12-24-2010, 04:41 PM   #8
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I had the exact thing happen to my old 4108. You might check the hi pressure pump too. That is what did in my engine. Be sure to keep up with the increase as it will cause an engine runaway if it is allowed to fill the crank. We had one and it is not fun. The level increased to the point that the oil started to flow into the intake via the blow by hose. The only way to stop it was to jam a rag into the intake as the engine passed 6k RPM. We reengined the boat.

Steve
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Old 04-06-2011, 12:15 PM   #9
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I'm certainly no expert, but...

Whenever a diesel engine is "Making Oil" I suspect the piston rings are allowing diesel fuel to slip past and collect in the sump. As mentioned above - a compression check will verify this.

The fuel oil is diluting the lube oil, reducing viscosity and the lubricating properties are thus rapidly diminishing, increasing friction... so doing nothing will lead to a premature death of the engine.

If you have lots of money to burn - buy a new engine.

If not... get some rags, a fan & a bright work light... and prepare to get your hands dirty.

Drain the oil, remove the fuel lines between the pump & injectors, romove the valve cover, pull the head, drop the oil pan, push the pistons up & out one at a time, run a bead hone inside the cylinder (to polish the wall), install new piston rings, inspect & replace piston big end bearings (if needed), repeat with each cylinder, replace head gasket, put it back together and you'll be good to go another ten years. You'll need a drill to spin the hone, a torque wrench, a tube of gasket goo & a wrench or three.

Since you have the head off it's beneficial to lap the valves while you're at it.

It's easier than it sounds and the hone, rings, bearings & new head gasket aren't overly expensive.

You can most likely do the job yourself, with the engine in place and in a day or two.

Some people refer to this as an "In Frame Rebuild". I call it Extending the Life of my Engine.

You'll get your hands dirty but you'll gain greater understanding of your engine and save a heap of money - now and later.

To Life!

Kirk
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Old 09-19-2013, 03:07 AM   #10
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Cool injection pump

It look like the problem come from the seal from injection pump,if any thing appen on the return fuel line,that blow the seal and the fuel go in the oïl pan....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boomerang View Post
Hello All,

I have an unusual issue that cropped up here recently since my last oil change. Having been using the boat regularly and while checking the oil one day, the oil seemed to be rising up the dipstick. Thinking that a bit strange, I again, performed an oil change, and after several hours of further use, noticed the same thing again. To clarify....there is no water in the oil (another potential problem that can happen) or it would be rather milky something like chocolate milk and its not.....it could be diesel, but it does not smell like diesel, but then it may not be able to be smelled anyway.

Perplexed, and thinking about it and doing some research, I came to the conclusion that the only thing that could be happening here is that there is a tear or hole in the diapragm inside the lift pump. Replacing that (and that was a blast considering the location and lack of access), used the boat all this weekend, and checking the oil today, found the same issue....now I am REALLY confused....I guess I now have a spare lift though...Jackpot!

So, its not water....cannot tell if it is diesel, but have an analysis cup coming to it can be analyzed by some far off engineer somewhere in Oz probably.... So the question is....has anyone else experienced this type of thing before? And if so, what the heck?

I have been told that it could also be the injector pump...but then, would it not be smoking like crazy? Its not....

HELP, PLEASE!!
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Old 09-19-2013, 04:42 AM   #11
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Which seal from the injection pump? I am interested in this--you're saying backpressure from a pinch in the return line can cause problems at the injection pump, right?
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Old 09-19-2013, 11:22 AM   #12
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Default fuel pump

Ihave a 4-236 and Ihad the same problem(fuel in oïl) After long search discover that there is a seal in fron part of the pump who wasleak after a valve have been close on the return line took the pump to repair place and took them 5 minutes to change that seal. I don't know if your pump issame type????
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Old 09-19-2013, 02:09 PM   #13
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We "thought" we had fuel getting into the oil--but as it turns out it was simply an overfill of the oil (we installed a bypass filter system and this changed quantity of oil required in the engine). However, it reminded us that the lift pump is quite old and same with injection/high pressure pump. Old=seals may be bad. We replaced the inexpensive lift pump "just in case" but didn't know what would make sense on the injection pump itself in terms of replacing seals. I will figure out if there is a "seal kit" available.

Thanks!
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