Go Back   Cruiser Log World Cruising & Sailing Forums > Cruising Forums > The Bosun's Locker > Rigging & Sails
Cruiser Wiki Click Here to Login

Join Cruiser Log Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 05-28-2010, 03:04 AM   #1
Admiral
 
atavist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Vessel Name: Persevate
Posts: 548
Send a message via Yahoo to atavist
Default

My old Pearson has all original 1978 stainless rigging... everything looks good and has actually held up over the last year through some strong winds (80+ knots), but I don't think anyone will argue that it's about time for some new rigging... I'm dead set on doing it myself, I simply refuse to pay someone else to do something I'm perfectly capable of... but my main mast has 3/8 forestay and shrouds... my instinct was to just go with good old nico press fittings but I can't find 3/8 nicopress tools anywhere and am not even sure I could get the 3/8 wire to form an eye... riggers I talk to all suggest going with stainless and norseman fittings... some I've spoken with advocate the new sta-lok fittings (which are sort of like norsemen but you don't have to unlay the wire)...

what's you alls input?

stainless?

galvinized? (i have an aluminum mast... if I install galvinized rigging do I need to change out the tangs?.. if so what galvanic issues might arise?)

nicopress? (if so a source of tools would be helpfull)

professional swaging?

norseman?

sta-lok?

something else I'm not thinking of?

as always thanks in advance for your input.
__________________

__________________
“The world turns aside to let any man pass who knows where he is going.” (Epictetus 55 - 135 AD)

"To see new things, and live day to day, is better than wine or poppy, and fitter for a man." (Theseus)
atavist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2010, 05:39 AM   #2
Admiral
 
MMNETSEA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,067
Default

Hi again,

Brion Toss says Nicopress not for Standing rigging (Ok for steel halyards) CLICK

As you have already got stainless forestay and shrouds 3/8" (9.53mm nearest 10mm SS)

To give you an idea of cost, think non-marine supplier; Here's the price McMaster Carr charge for 3/8" 17500 lb breaking strength stainless 1x19 :- CLICK

Suggest that you change all the standing rigging - including the triatic and back stay. On the mizzen shrouds you can probably reuse shroud wire from the main mast.

Sta-Loc easy to use ! Need an angle grinder to cut wire and shape the cut end to fit the terminal fitting easily.

----------------

Remember to check the Chain plates where they come through the deck!
__________________

__________________
MMNETSEA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2010, 12:47 PM   #3
Admiral
 
atavist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Vessel Name: Persevate
Posts: 548
Send a message via Yahoo to atavist
Default

yeah $4/foot is about the same as I've gotten from local riggers for 3/8 1x19 wire...

any experience with sta-loc? it looks handy but I've never heard any actual reviews (other than the manufacturers) on it's actual reliabiliby.
__________________
“The world turns aside to let any man pass who knows where he is going.” (Epictetus 55 - 135 AD)

"To see new things, and live day to day, is better than wine or poppy, and fitter for a man." (Theseus)
atavist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2010, 12:56 PM   #4
Admiral
 
MMNETSEA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,067
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by atavist' date='28 May 2010 - 06:47 PM View Post

yeah $4/foot is about the same as I've gotten from local riggers for 3/8 1x19 wire...

any experience with sta-loc? it looks handy but I've never heard any actual reviews (other than the manufacturers) on it's actual reliabiliby.
Used both Sta-loc and Norseman on catamarans where loads can be much higher - never had one of either pull out. They are more expensive than swaged terminals but one saves on DYI cost. Also, over time do not fail like swages. Prefer Sta-loc.
__________________
MMNETSEA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2010, 12:57 AM   #5
Admiral
 
atavist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Vessel Name: Persevate
Posts: 548
Send a message via Yahoo to atavist
Default

good to know...

still not sure what I'll do but lots of food for thought...
__________________
“The world turns aside to let any man pass who knows where he is going.” (Epictetus 55 - 135 AD)

"To see new things, and live day to day, is better than wine or poppy, and fitter for a man." (Theseus)
atavist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2010, 02:24 PM   #6
Moderator
 
JeanneP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,098
Default

This link gives more information regarding what is involved with swaged fittings. We have never used the fittings endorsed here, so can't comment on them, but the information regarding swage fittings is helpful, I think, in making a decision. ThomasNet news article on swage

When we rerigged sv Watermelon we used Norseman fittings, and found them easy to use, with the caveat that one "measures twice, cuts once". The little cones inside are not reuseable, but the fittings themselves are; so it behooves one to carry a few of them as spares. We also carried a spare piece of wire rope as long as the longest piece of rigging on the boat.

I guess there's lots of research one should undertake before going DIY on something as critical as standing rigging. Here's a topic on the Wooden Boat forum that talks about what should NOT be used on standing rigging Molly Hogan wire rope splice

I think we learned a lot about what "we didn't know that we didn't know" in our years of blue water cruising. And with the Internet such an amazing source of information (not all of which is necessarily correct, as you know), the gap between knowledge and disaster can be narrowed faster and more easily than ever.

Please keep asking questions - they challenge us; and continue to share what you have learned with us.

J
__________________
In 1986 we went cruising for a few years. After 20 years and 50+ countries and several oceans, we are STILL "cruising for a few years".

SY WATERMELON |
MV WATERMELON (New) | Cruiser's Dictionary, free ebook

= Cruiser's Dictionary, North America,
JeanneP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2010, 10:23 PM   #7
Moderator
 
redbopeep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Home Port: Washington DC
Vessel Name: SV Mahdee
Posts: 3,236
Default

Hi there,

You should have no problems doing your own standing rigging, including the 3/8" 1x19. I did ours as it was one of the "don't have to be really strong" things to do. You'll find best prices on 3/8" 1x19 to be a little under $2.00/ft. In addition to some 7x19 for the jibstay, we bought 950 feet of 3/8 1x19 for $1.30/ft from a big industrial and shipyard rigging place. I regret it in that the cheaper stuff hasn't been polished up like the $4.00/ft Loo's that you'll find at the West Marine. Of course...I had to do my own polishing and rubbing it down as I went. I could have gotten Loos for about $2/ft wholesale if I'd purchased through a friend with a wholesale account. Live and learn. Still 70 cents per foot x 950...saved some money there

I did spliced eyes on the lower ends of the shrouds and stays and did HiMod (like Norseman but has re-useable cones) on the upper ends of the same. The bobstay was 3/4" so I used HiMod's on both ends. If you decide to splice anything, I can give you a source for good heavy SS thimbles at a good price. The HiMod's are inspectable (like the Norseman fittings as I understand) in that you can unscrew them and take a look at the wires. In the HiMod fitting the cone is a little daisy looking thing where each wire of the outer strands gets it own little holding spot. Rather nifty and easy to do.

The only thing that was on the "do have to be strong" end of things was cutting the wire. We have a V28 portable band saw that I have a hard time lifting and hubby ended up helping me there.

With the schooner rig, I had a few soft eyes to do as well as lots of ends to work with and learning to splice the 1x19 (see Brion Toss's Rigger's Apprentice or Jamie White's Squarerigger website) was worthwhile. Probably not so worthwhile for most folks though.

Good luck
__________________
"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda

What we're doing - The sailing life aboard and the Schooner Chandlery.

redbopeep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2010, 01:34 PM   #8
Admiral
 
atavist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Vessel Name: Persevate
Posts: 548
Send a message via Yahoo to atavist
Default

Brenda, any chance you could toss me your source for wire at (or around) $2.00 per foot (not worries about shiny)... I've looked high and low and McMaster is still the cheapest I've found at nearly $4 per foot... also if you don't mind giving me your source of Hi Mod fitting... the more price comparing I can do the better.

...

Finished the new copper-coat bottom job finally (which is what's been keeping me busy)... I'll post pics in another thread.
__________________
“The world turns aside to let any man pass who knows where he is going.” (Epictetus 55 - 135 AD)

"To see new things, and live day to day, is better than wine or poppy, and fitter for a man." (Theseus)
atavist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2010, 04:12 PM   #9
Moderator
 
redbopeep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Home Port: Washington DC
Vessel Name: SV Mahdee
Posts: 3,236
Default

You're not shopping online, are you? I found several places with good pricing on 3/8" SS 1x19. I'm in Houston right now so I don't have my boat project notes here. I'll list a few suppliers over the weekend when I get back to the San Francisco Bay and the boat. I purchased the 1x19 from an industrial rigging supply place in San Diego, CA, btw. They are local there, here is their link. $4.00/foot on 3/8" 1x19 is like the West Marine price on USA manufactured (Loos) wire. You can find better non-USA made wire pricing. If you stay with a US mfr, it still is not made here, but rather is "certified" and I suppose inspected here.

Fittings--In my case, I got excellent pricing from a friend who is a stocking dealer for HiMod fittings in San Diego, CA and purchased my fittings through him. However, there are several online sources with decent pricing for HiMod fittings as well. Look for my post this weekend. Sometimes yachtsupplydepot.com has good pricing, can't remember if they do on this though.
__________________
"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda

What we're doing - The sailing life aboard and the Schooner Chandlery.

redbopeep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2010, 04:57 PM   #10
Admiral
 
atavist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Vessel Name: Persevate
Posts: 548
Send a message via Yahoo to atavist
Default

Unfortunately I am shopping online... I'm in St. Simon now... had planned to go into Brunswick Landing. They advertise themselves as a "full-service marina", and one of their reviews talks about rigging work but when I got up here come to find out the nearest rigging shop (or at least the one they recommend) is North Sails out of Jacksonvill, FL... being as I want to do it myself and don't have a car getting to them to get stuff, if they would work with me as diy'er isn't really cost effective... so I'm at anchor instead and was thinking to order online and get a general delivery at the local post office which is within walking distance.

I'll check out yachtsupplydepot and watch for your post this weekend... have a great 4th of July.
__________________
“The world turns aside to let any man pass who knows where he is going.” (Epictetus 55 - 135 AD)

"To see new things, and live day to day, is better than wine or poppy, and fitter for a man." (Theseus)
atavist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2010, 10:53 PM   #11
Moderator
 
redbopeep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Home Port: Washington DC
Vessel Name: SV Mahdee
Posts: 3,236
Default

Hey there,

I'm back. My notes...well, I purchased awesome solid thimbles from these folks. The link here is to the solid thimbles page. Call them for pricing line, wire rope, or other stuff.

The folks at Fisheries Supply sometimes have good pricing. The link here is to their Hayne page.

I've also purchased other stuff from these folks at Rigging Only. The link here being to the HiMod page. Their wire pricing is high, though.

Finally, I've bought from these folks at PYacht too. This link is to their HiMod Page.

I bought my riggers vice from Elisha Webb (via phone). They do carry wire ripe as I recall. Try them at My link

I hope you'll get a good price/bid from one of these sources.

Regarding wire rope, you should be able to obtain pricing from industrial rigging shops incl. shipping. You are likely to find 7x19 rather than 1x19 via industrial sources. You can get HiMod fittings with 7x19 cones, you'll just have to specify it. Some of our rigging is 7x19. If you choose to use 7x19, go to the Riggers' Apprentice and re-read the information about stretch and also make sure your chosen size is strong enough for your rigging loads.

You also need to spec 316 SS rather than 304 if you go through an industrial rigging/wire rope supplier.

Good luck to you in your project!

PS. Sometimes you can get things sent via UPS to the marina (though you're not there) or to another business situated nearby you rather than using USPS. We've had very good luck doing this sort of thing.
__________________
"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda

What we're doing - The sailing life aboard and the Schooner Chandlery.

redbopeep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2010, 03:14 AM   #12
Admiral
 
atavist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Vessel Name: Persevate
Posts: 548
Send a message via Yahoo to atavist
Default

First, thanks for all the links... I'll definitely put some time into looking them over thoroughly...

second... why do I want 316 instead of 304?? From what I've read 304 is stronger than 316... what am I missing?

thanks again.
__________________
“The world turns aside to let any man pass who knows where he is going.” (Epictetus 55 - 135 AD)

"To see new things, and live day to day, is better than wine or poppy, and fitter for a man." (Theseus)
atavist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2010, 04:03 AM   #13
Moderator
 
redbopeep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Home Port: Washington DC
Vessel Name: SV Mahdee
Posts: 3,236
Default

Not that much stronger but definitely less corrosion resistant. The thing that will have you replacing your rigging is likely to be corrosion. However, it will be very easy to do with HiMods.
__________________
"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda

What we're doing - The sailing life aboard and the Schooner Chandlery.

redbopeep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2010, 10:01 PM   #14
Admiral
 
atavist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Vessel Name: Persevate
Posts: 548
Send a message via Yahoo to atavist
Default

good point...

been doing lots of price comparing and have pulled the headstay down... taking it apart looks like I'll be able to reuse my roller furler (30 year old Sea Furl II)... just needs some new washers and a good greasing... So far the best prices I've found are on www.riggingonly.com. A couple bucks less on each fitting, and they do 316 wire at considerably less than I've seen at some other sites...

I need to go up the mast one more time in the morning to do some final re-measuring (just to make sure) and I'll probably be placing an order...

I thought for a bit there that I would be working with the Northsail rigger out of Jacksonville, FL, but after calling and recalling for two weeks he's proven undependable about returning calls and providing price quotes.... that's enough to put me off...

Any good online sailmaker recommendations??... My preference would be to work with Trip Felebom(SP?), whom I've done some sailwork with before, out of Charleston, NC, but while I trust his work I know his prices will be quite a bit higher than I'll find with nationalsail.com or another offshore maker.
__________________
“The world turns aside to let any man pass who knows where he is going.” (Epictetus 55 - 135 AD)

"To see new things, and live day to day, is better than wine or poppy, and fitter for a man." (Theseus)
atavist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2010, 03:21 AM   #15
Moderator
 
redbopeep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Home Port: Washington DC
Vessel Name: SV Mahdee
Posts: 3,236
Default

sailmakers--National does have the Rolly Tasker "good deals" that people love.

For top notch cruising sails Carol Hasse of Port Townsend Sails can't be beat. She's got an impeccable reputation and her sails are known to last decades in heavy cruising service.

You might also look to Sailrite. Yes, the DIY sail people. They will make sails for you at good prices and they will also work with you so that you can do some of the work yourself--I know this because I spoke with them about building me a mainsail that I would then put traditional bolt rope and hand sewn eyelets onto. Nice folks and very competent.

What's wrong with what you've got? Are repairs needed? A good sailmaker could do broad seaming or other use/wear related repairs. You could also do quite a bit yourself. I just finished recutting and resewing the foot of our mainsail (an imposing task for me to undertake, btw) and the hardest part was the hand sewing on of the bolt rope! Amazing what you can do yourself once you set your mind to it. Now I'm looking at broad seaming one of our jibs. If that goes well, I may broad seam our staysail or remove the battens from it and do a "roachectomy" with guidance from the Sailmakers Apprentice.

G/L with your projects!
__________________
"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda

What we're doing - The sailing life aboard and the Schooner Chandlery.

redbopeep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2010, 12:49 PM   #16
Admiral
 
MMNETSEA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,067
Default

J,

Sometime past we talked about 1 x 19 galvanized - have you reconsidered going back to that alternative. The number one problem with 304 is that it does not contain the protection of 3>>4% of molybdenum to protect it from deep pit corrosion out of the water.

Brion Toss is very approachable and extraordinarily honest :- WIRE

Richard
__________________
MMNETSEA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2010, 12:01 AM   #17
Moderator
 
redbopeep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Home Port: Washington DC
Vessel Name: SV Mahdee
Posts: 3,236
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MMNETSEA' date='12 July 2010 - 04:43 AM View Post

J,

Sometime past we talked about 1 x 19 galvanized - have you reconsidered going back to that alternative. The number one problem with 304 is that it does not contain the protection of 3>>4% of molybdenum to protect it from deep pit corrosion out of the water.

Brion Toss is very approachable and extraordinarily honest :- WIRE

Richard
You know, I really wanted 1x19 galvanized for our rig! However, in the USA in 3/8" size, it is not available anywhere. I searched high and low for well over a year and spoke with many reputable riggers before I gave up and just bought 1x19 in 316 SS. 1x19 galvanized in 3/8" is available in the UK, however, at the time I looked into it, it would have cost approximately 2.5 times the cost of 316 SS for me to import it. Manufacturers will sell it in lots of 10,000 ft, although I did find one who would sell a 5000 ft length. Or, you have to import it. It may be possible to find smaller 1x19 galvanized wire, but I was only seeking out 3/8" diameter. It is definitely possible to find 1/2" and larger 1x19 galvanized and it is easy to find all sizes of 7x19 galvanized. Just not 3/8" 1x19 which is what I needed. Brion Toss, an excellent rigger, keeps his own supply for his own use for his own rigging projects. He is located in Port Townsend Washington. I did not have the impression that he would supply other people with rigging wire for their use--but he might.

If you choose to use galvanized wire, you will be advised by Toss and others to NOT use HiMod or other similar mechanical terminations made of SS, rather you would be advised to splice over thimbles (as I did on our SS 1x19 for the lower ends of the shrouds). You would also be advised to parcel and serve the galvanized rig to both prolong its life (it can outlast your lifetime) and to keep unsightly rust from ending up on your sails and decks.

GL
__________________
"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda

What we're doing - The sailing life aboard and the Schooner Chandlery.

redbopeep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2010, 02:03 AM   #18
Admiral
 
MMNETSEA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,067
Default

J,

With Brenda's personal knowledge and real 'hands on' experience, we return to the problem of the difficulty in sourcing the appropriate wire at right price.

Forget about the expensive riggers including Brion Toss, and also for the time being the Marine suppliers - here is an excellent site that lists US Industrial suppliers of wire rope, both S/S and galvanized. Suggest sticking with 316 and StaLoc fittings which are easy to fit yourself.

INDUSTRIAL WIRE ROPE\

Richard
__________________
MMNETSEA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2010, 07:04 PM   #19
Admiral
 
atavist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Vessel Name: Persevate
Posts: 548
Send a message via Yahoo to atavist
Default

I'm settled on 316SS at this point. Riggingonly.com has decent prices on wire and fittings... I will be using a norseman at the bottom of the forestay as that is what Hood specifies with the furling gear but hi-mod on the rest...

thanks again for all the input.
__________________
“The world turns aside to let any man pass who knows where he is going.” (Epictetus 55 - 135 AD)

"To see new things, and live day to day, is better than wine or poppy, and fitter for a man." (Theseus)
atavist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2010, 07:17 PM   #20
Moderator
 
redbopeep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Home Port: Washington DC
Vessel Name: SV Mahdee
Posts: 3,236
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by atavist' date='14 July 2010 - 10:58 AM View Post

I'm settled on 316SS at this point. Riggingonly.com has decent prices on wire and fittings... I will be using a norseman at the bottom of the forestay as that is what Hood specifies with the furling gear but hi-mod on the rest...

thanks again for all the input.
If you wish to keep HiMod on all, you might be able to get clarification from Hood. That way, you wouldn't have to keep spare cones for both Norseman and HiMod.

It is funny how pricing changes--I really liked the folks at Riggingonly.com, but at the time I checked with them, their wire prices were way higher than most other places I could get 316 SS 3/8" size. They have excellent pricing on labor of hand splicing 1x19 wire, btw.

Good luck in your project!
__________________

__________________
"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda

What we're doing - The sailing life aboard and the Schooner Chandlery.

redbopeep is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
rigging


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Gaff Rigging atavist Rigging & Sails 59 11-11-2015 08:37 AM
Rigging Size oneman Rigging & Sails 12 02-13-2012 08:44 PM
Diy Flopper Stopper? redbopeep Other Equipment 0 09-28-2010 10:42 PM
Rigging And Sails Dennis Rigging & Sails 6 12-02-2008 09:18 PM
Tuning your own Rigging? Bajamas Rigging & Sails 12 07-14-2006 10:44 PM

Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

RV & Travel Trailer Communities

Our RV & Travel Trailer sites encompasses virtually all types of Recreational Vehicles, from brand-specific to general RV communities.

» More about our RV Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:36 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.0
×