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Old 02-18-2009, 02:25 AM   #21
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Thanks for the references will definitely look them up...

Sadly as it happens I have searched high and low and have not beeen able to find anything even remotely close to what I want in a gaffer. I am in the US and the vast majority that I have found are either too modern sporty, with no liveable interior, or too rudimentarily traditional, once again with no liveable interior... this is definitely the boat I want... 1.43 capsize ratio, mahogony throughout, solid as a rock and beautiful as is... but could be improved with a few mods....

Unfortunately I don't yet know all the answers to your questions since I don't yet have possession of the boat... ... i do know... she's not exceptionally tall. She has keel stepped spruce main, with single spreaders... and if at all avoidable I'd prefer to not have to get new spars. $$$!!

I do realize this type of rig alteration is complex... To my own credit I am attempting to contact her desiger (Ted Brewer) to get his input on my pipe dreaming... if he says I'm retarted I'll drop it and accept her the way she is.... if on the other hand he is willing to entertain me.... ....
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Old 02-18-2009, 03:17 AM   #22
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Hey, which Ted Brewer design is it? Or, in particular which boat is it? I looked at a lovely Ted Brewer ketch in perfect condition to live aboard and cruise. It was for sale in San Diego in early 2006. It was still on the market late last year as the seller was in no mood to drop price. I don't know if its still around but I suspect it is.

What size of boat are you looking for (waterline, beam, draft, tonnage...)? Further, price range? Give us the particulars maybe we can help you find something even better . I've seen a lot of ketches and schooners on the market on both the east and west coasts. Both while we were looking and just keeping an eye out afterwards...

Good luck!
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Old 02-18-2009, 11:56 AM   #23
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unfortunately I haven't made an offer on her yet (waiting for work to allow me the time to travel to get a survey/take possession, etc). So I don't want to say too much about this boat in particular.... what I will say is that she's supposedly structurally sound but in need of lots of TLC. She's 27 LWL, 41 LOA, 10 Beam, and 22000lbs dry...

If I had a boat built this is pretty much the boat I would want (but as a gaffer of course )... the interior has great potential, big galley, lots of storage...

Now that you ask about price, that is probably the thing that is keeping me from seeing all he gaffers that you mentioned before... my price range is pretty limited... I refuse to have debt so I'm paying for the boat cash out of pocket. Fortunately I work from home consulting so I will be able to take my time and invest in her overtime to get her up to where I think she should be... but that still limits my purchase price to around 20K (I'm not expecting the world for this just a good sound hull and hopefully decks.. . and spars if I'm lucky and I'll build on her from there)
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Old 02-18-2009, 05:57 PM   #24
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unfortunately I haven't made an offer on her yet (waiting for work to allow me the time to travel to get a survey/take possession, etc). So I don't want to say too much about this boat in particular.... what I will say is that she's supposedly structurally sound but in need of lots of TLC. She's 27 LWL, 41 LOA, 10 Beam, and 22000lbs dry...

If I had a boat built this is pretty much the boat I would want (but as a gaffer of course )... the interior has great potential, big galley, lots of storage...

Now that you ask about price, that is probably the thing that is keeping me from seeing all he gaffers that you mentioned before... my price range is pretty limited... I refuse to have debt so I'm paying for the boat cash out of pocket. Fortunately I work from home consulting so I will be able to take my time and invest in her overtime to get her up to where I think she should be... but that still limits my purchase price to around 20K (I'm not expecting the world for this just a good sound hull and hopefully decks.. . and spars if I'm lucky and I'll build on her from there)
Oh, the brewer we looked at was around $100K but cruise ready.

You might check out the Schooner Shearwater. She's for sale and a really good boat:

craigslist shearwater ad

Our surveyor (for our re-build) surveyed Shearwater 2 years ago when she moved from the east coast to the west coast and I recall what he said. She's known on the east coast as a good boat and though I don't know her owner here, I suspect he's selling because of the economy. She was for sale back east for $40K 3 years ago, he bought her (don't know at what final price, of course) and trucked her to San Diego, so I know he's got much more in her than just the 24K asking price.

There are several other good gaff-rigged boats out there. If they're wood, and in your price range, you do have to be careful of condition though.

Are you on the east coast or west coast?

fair winds
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Old 02-18-2009, 06:10 PM   #25
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Cost of gaff conversion...if you can find a gaffer already rigged, you really should. The cost of a good gaff saddle, hoops, gaff boom (the upper boom at the top of the sail), etc really do add up. Not to mention a good sail! All the "goodies" will be in place on a gaffer that you find. You can always work with the interior and do what you wish to make it more as you want it. That is something you can put your own work/elbow grease into doing--or go to an inexpensive boatyard in Thailand, etc, and have a lovely job done for you! But, that gaff hardware is dear. JMHO.
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Old 02-20-2009, 10:32 PM   #26
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Coming to the party a little late but...

I love my gaff, when it comes to smaller boats I think the gaff rig is superb. It makes handling the boat very straight foward, you can scandalise the sail if you get into difficulty and because the mast is short my less sailing inclined friends don't freak out about the boat tipping. With the size of the gaff we don't have any winches which considering the lack of space outside of the cockpit is great. The boat can point suprisingly well to windward if you have her trimmed correctly but really can't match a bermudan rig, however off the wind she sails like an absolute dream.

I don't know about America but the UK has a very active Old Gaffers Association, so it's a great way to meet like-minded individuals and get lots of handy hints. Check out their site here and their forum.

Just to reinforce something already suggested really do get hold of "Hand, reef and steer" by Tom Cunliffe, it's a real help when thinking about gaffs and he's got a real way with words, he also wrote the shell channel pilot, a real hoot in places! (Who'd think you could say that about a pilot guide?)

Also grab a copy of "the gaff rig handbook" by John Leather

I have never sailed a large gaff but I can tell you that I prefer gaff rigs for anything under 25'. It's just more fun!

Mostly though it's just the fact that gaff rigged vessels are so pretty
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Old 02-20-2009, 11:31 PM   #27
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As an update to my original revival post....

I spoke with Ted Brewer (the designer of the boat I'm looking at) in email and ends up she is an extended stern, clipper bow, ketch, cutter rigged Ingenue design (which is every mod offered for that design). He highly advocates the boat as a great bluewater/heavyweather cruiser but is adamant that gaff rigging her would destroy her performance... she just isn't engineered for a gaff rig... and well as the designer I'm going to trust he knows what he's talking about... ... while this makes me a bit sad I'm still interested in the boat... ... but am still keeping an open mind in case I can find a gaffer... hopefully a schooner...

of which i've actually found a few in my price and size range which all appear to be marvelous boats (one thanks to redbopeep) but after talking to the previous owner and friend of the designer these boats just aren't built for the kind of sailing I'm looking to do... While the schooner was originally a fishing boat it seems a lot of the more modern iterations are pretty lightly built more designed for racing than bluewater sailing...

still, I'm keeping my hopes up.
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Old 06-20-2011, 05:41 AM   #28
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A few comments on the gaff rig. I have a 40 foot double ended steel sloop,gaff rigged. Hoist is 28',gaff is 15' and boom is 24'.

I frequently sail the boat alone in moderate weather and find that with the proper planning it is no harder than the bermuda rig.

Surely there are more strings to pull,but if one wants to sit and steer why not a power boat. Most people with gaff rig enjoy it precisely for what it requires to sail.

Other than a roller furling jib the only exception I have to blocks and tackle are highfield levers on the runners.

Reason for making a comment is that one chooses the rig and boat for how one wants to experience sailing.

A comment about difficulties handling gaff rig. I am 88 years old.
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Old 06-21-2011, 04:42 AM   #29
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A few comments on the gaff rig. I have a 40 foot double ended steel sloop,gaff rigged. Hoist is 28',gaff is 15' and boom is 24'.

I frequently sail the boat alone in moderate weather and find that with the proper planning it is no harder than the bermuda rig.

Surely there are more strings to pull,but if one wants to sit and steer why not a power boat. Most people with gaff rig enjoy it precisely for what it requires to sail.

Other than a roller furling jib the only exception I have to blocks and tackle are highfield levers on the runners.

Reason for making a comment is that one chooses the rig and boat for how one wants to experience sailing.

A comment about difficulties handling gaff rig. I am 88 years old.
Gooday bloke. Sounds like a nice yacht ! What design is it ? Do you sail in the Columbia River ? I've a mate over there that does & is doing a trip up 'the inland waterway' up inside Vancouver Island (which he does every year at this time) for several weeks. Bit cold for me even in your summer. Become to used to living in the tropics in north OZ-land. Had enough snow growing-up (never let it be said) in West Van, B.C to last me several life-times.Ciao, james
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Old 06-22-2011, 02:05 PM   #30
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You can make great arguments for both rigs (or maybe any rig).

But for me... this picture kind of sums it up. Who doesn't love a boat (and rig) like this?

(Black Witch, S.F. Bay)

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Old 06-28-2011, 02:54 AM   #31
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[QUOTE=BobPattison;1308751554]

You can make great arguments for both rigs (or maybe any rig).

But for me... this picture kind of sums it up. Who doesn't love a boat (and rig) like this?

(Black Witch, S.F. Bay)]

G'day Bob. WOW many times over. Love it, love it, plus. Magnificent photo, wonderful traditional classical yacht in full flight. Who cut the sails? They look very well shaped(cut). IMHO Shame the jib 'wollies' (tell-tales) aren't flowing properly or as well as the main leach ones. Why aren't there any 'wollies' 12" to 14" back from the luff of the main? Thanks for sharing the photo with all of us. Sure makes me want go to 'SF' and hitch a ride!! Ciao, james
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Old 06-28-2011, 07:16 PM   #32
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Sails? Me my friend....Challenge Cream sailcloth...with external 3-strand 'hemp' rope (polyester the color of hemp) ,hand sewn rings, and finger patches...all designed to be period for the yacht. It was a fun project.

Woolies...to each his own I gues.

bp
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Old 09-23-2011, 04:37 PM   #33
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Sails? Me my friend....Challenge Cream sailcloth...with external 3-strand 'hemp' rope (polyester the color of hemp) ,hand sewn rings, and finger patches...all designed to be period for the yacht. It was a fun project.

Woolies...to each his own I gues.

bp
Ah, so those are called "finger" patches. What range of years were they appropriate?
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Old 09-27-2011, 12:53 PM   #34
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Finger Patches: Some call them 'tongue' patches as well. I have seen them on sails as long as there have been photographs.

I think they evolved with the advent of miter-cut jibs, but can't be certain. They worked well with natural fiber sails that were much more elastic.

As sailcloth became stronger and less stretchy, we have seen the patches morph into larger 'load distributing' shapes.

For me the Finger patch is 'classic' and almost always belongs with traditional sailing vessels.

bob

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Ah, so those are called "finger" patches. What range of years were they appropriate?
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Old 09-30-2011, 12:52 AM   #35
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Well, I was looking for info about early man-made (like Dacron) sails and appropriate years of use for the finger patches therein. Not natural fiber sails. My guess was post-WWII but I don't know exactly when--I originally thought maybe the 1960's?

Older boats (like ours, which was sailing in the 1930's had natural fiber sails which require almost no patches. I sort of wondered about that when looking at an old photo of my boat sailing (and reefed) with no corner patches to be seen. Similarly, I've noted that on other pics of other boats/sails (pre WWII pics) that the patches are actually just long narrow reinforcement (seems to be called "liner patches") along the edge near the clew/tack/head but no "finger" or other patch extending into the field of the sail.

I went to the Sailmaker's Apprentice where I learned (page 269) that "It is amazing how traditional natural-fiber sails withstand so much strain with such small patches. There are two reasons for the miracle: the durability of traditional materials derives in great part from their elasticity, resilience, and absorption of shock. In addition, traditionally made sails are supported and bound by rope or wire which takes most of the strain. Increasingly, with the use of rigid synthetic fabrics, the emphasis has been on the sailcloth itself sustaining the stress. With little absorption and elasticity, either the fabric itself must provide the brute strength o rthere is insufficient strength to withstand the load. This is why you find large corner patches in unroped soft Dacron sails and mammoth radial strip patches in hard-finished Dacron and laminated fabric sails."

The author goes on to talk about patch shapes and sizes including a statement parallel to that which you made about the use of the tongue (finger) patches on mitered sails. However, now I'm even more confused since I know mitered headsails have been around a while (e.g. I have a pic of my boat with mitered jib in 1931--no real corner patches on it though...) so I suppose again that it was the use of Dacron that brought out the "fingers."

So...Dacron/synthetic fibers...1950's, 1960's?????
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Old 02-26-2012, 06:43 PM   #36
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I have a Compac Horizon Cat with a gaff rig. I trailer sail. The mast hinges just above the boom. It is very, very easy (and quick) to raise the mast and rig. Shorter masts are much easier to raise! All lines run back to the cockpit, so it is also very easy to sail.
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Old 02-27-2012, 03:46 AM   #37
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I am another fan of gaff rig. Sold my last boat a few years ago, a 41 LOD 53 LOA gaff schooner built in 1920. The rig was easily handleable by one as the sails were small enough. Granted there were a dozen halyards to learn but, chafe is the major reason, I believe, that the gaff rig has fallen into disfavor. Although sewing a bit of leather on a sheet or line worked, duct tape was my friend until the end of the trip. Hand splicing the standing and running rigging, whittling out bulls eyes and deadeyes, ease of sail repairs due to flatter cut, and use of blocks instead of expensive winches all keep the cost down and are user friendly when repairs are required. As far as sailing goes, when going to weather in the Trades, a gaff is almost as good as a marconi simply because if you point up much more than 45 degrees in the usual 35 knots breezes like we have in Hawaii, it will get pretty uncomfortable for the crew. The wife and I sailed our schooner from Hawaii to Alaska. A couple of buddies and I sailed an 80 foot gaff ketch to Mexico from Hawaii. Nice trips as the motion is easier than a marconi even if you factor in a full vs a fin keel, just don't let the gaffs flog about when becalmed!!!. When I start looking for the next sailboat, a gaffer will not be ruled out, after all, look at Joshua Slocum.....
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Old 02-27-2012, 06:29 PM   #38
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On our schooner, our mainsail is Bermuda rigged but our foresail is gaff. When there isn't much wind but yet quite a roll of the sea, we use the gaff vang (runs from the end of the gaff spar to a block just below the triatic stay) on the mainmast to keep the spar from swinging about. It is also useful for sail shape on any point of sail.
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Old 02-28-2012, 06:06 PM   #39
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Default schooner fun!

Our schooner had the original Egyptian cotton main from the 1920's when we got it. Never used it much as washing out the salt/drying before stowing was work and the dacron from the '60's worked fine. Saved the main when we sold the schooner as it will work fine for canvas on frames for the wife's oil painting. We had a gaff main and staysail. Made for lots of possibilities and the trysail we used in stormy weather balanced out quite well, too. Otherwise, to play with were a fisherman over the staysail, golly-acre which was a recut upside down genoa with the tack at the main masthead, the head on the end of the bow sprit and the clew sheeted to the stern and the main topsail, which was a windsufer mast, teak wishbone and sail (made it easier to fly and quite colorful, too). Also had a square sail for the fore which was the lower 1/2 of a spinnaker. Lots of halyards and sheets to trim! Old rigs have so many possibilities. Wish I had pictures....
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Old 02-28-2012, 07:20 PM   #40
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You had a bit of an odd combo there--a staysail schooner with a gaff mainsail? Usually on a gaff-main and gaff-foresail rigged schooner, it is the gaff main that is "given up" for the convenience of a Bermuda main but somehow the gaff foresail remains. I recently spoke with one of the owners of the Elizabeth Muir, a lovely 48' schooner in San Francisco. She has a Bermuda main but has been rigged at various times with gaff fore or with a main staysail in place of the gaff fore. We didn't talk long about the matter and I look forward to learning more, but the owner did say that the gaff foresail was more versatile and mentioned that with the staysail in place he had to use a large fisherman or golly wobbler to achieve the sailing which could be had with gaff fore alone. He predominately races, so I suppose he's quite knowledgeable about these things.
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