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Old 12-19-2008, 09:43 PM   #1
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I am replacing the double ply - wrap around sail on a Freedom Cat Ketch made in England, 1985. The new sail will be single ply with a luff rope and grommets every two feet. I plan to string one inch beads on a 3/8" line around the mast (no track) to attach the main. (Old schooners used hoops). Anybody out there ever see this done? or do it? Any thoughts or advice will be welcome. Thanks, Scott
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Old 12-20-2008, 01:12 AM   #2
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I am replacing the double ply - wrap around sail on a Freedom Cat Ketch made in England, 1985. The new sail will be single ply with a luff rope and grommets every two feet. I plan to string one inch beads on a 3/8" line around the mast (no track) to attach the main. (Old schooners used hoops). Anybody out there ever see this done? or do it? Any thoughts or advice will be welcome. Thanks, Scott
To easily use a method of lacing or hoops on a mast, you can only go up to where the spreaders are (so you can take the sail down the traditional way, dropping it rather than doing something like scandalizing it to the mast) I believe the Freedom Cat Ketch would have no spreaders, but you need to confirm. A boat can have spreaders, but, the sail will only go up to the spreaders. This is fine with a gaff rigged boat.

You can use a simple spiral lacing, a "forth-and-back" method of lacing, parrel beads (this is the method you mention), or mast hoops. The spiral lacing works well on small boats, bigger boats emply the "forth-and-back" method, bigger boats yet parrel beads and mast hoops. If you're going around for day sails, even on a large boat, properly sized parrel beads may be employed but for smooth operation of the sail when reefing and especially for offshore work, you'd want to use mast hoops (properly sized) for your mast.

Resources you might look into include Marino's Sailmaker's Apprentice as well as books on Gaff Rigs.

Why do you wish to forgo the improvement you could make with a mast track? Besides really doing a great job with sail shape, it is the easiest way to raise and lower a Bermuda (shape) sail in a variety of conditions. A gaff sail is a different situation in that the heavy gaff boom (at the top of the sail) is employed to efficiently raise and lower the sail as well as to enhance sail shape.

What is the length and displacement of your ketch? What is the height of your mast and its diameter. Assume that you've got a round mast if you're planning on using hoops or parrels.

Fair winds,

Brenda
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Old 12-23-2008, 10:11 PM   #3
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Carbon Fiber Mast - - how about wear and rubbing on the mast by the beads or hoops? The sail "pushes forward" against the mast to drive the boat through the water. Rubbing on the carbon fiber mast might over time do some considerable damage to the surface of the mast. That is why mast tracks are used - - besides the existence of spreaders - - to prevent chafe and wear on the mast tube itself. Considering the cost of carbon fiber masts I would think introducing constant rubbing and chafing with the beads/hoops and sail would not be prudent.
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Old 12-24-2008, 03:57 PM   #4
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Carbon Fiber Mast - - how about wear and rubbing on the mast by the beads or hoops? The sail "pushes forward" against the mast to drive the boat through the water. Rubbing on the carbon fiber mast might over time do some considerable damage to the surface of the mast. That is why mast tracks are used - - besides the existence of spreaders - - to prevent chafe and wear on the mast tube itself. Considering the cost of carbon fiber masts I would think introducing constant rubbing and chafing with the beads/hoops and sail would not be prudent.
Rubbing/chafe shouldn't be the major issue. Coatings are not worn off of wooden masts given such treatment. However, it is hard to keep a coating on an aluminum mast and wear could be an issue there. The little I know about carbon fiber is that it would hold a coating better than aluminum but not sure of that.

Mast tracks do a better job of sail shaping and ease getting a large sail up and down a mast.

Don't know where you're going with "pushing"...The side load of the wind against the sail has a forward component which provides lift/forward motion. The lines or hoops pull against the mast in tension rather than push against it. The boom at the gooseneck gives compression against the mast and also on a gaff rigged boat, there is a forward load at the gaff jaws but that is unique to the use of a gaff boom. In all cases with hoops, lines and beads, one does point load the mast and the sail at those interfaces rather than the uniform loading provided with a track.
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Old 12-27-2008, 03:04 PM   #5
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Thanks for the input regarding attaching the sail. I've been told that you can't screw a sailtrack into the mast without compromising it's strength. This rig has no boom or spreaders; wishbones. I have seen sails attached with looped lines but it seems too me that this would cause a bit of friction? Yes/no? The luff of the new sail will be about 36'. The boat displaces around 13,000 pounds. My thought on hoops and beads was to reduce the friction. Perhaps it would be best to try looping some of the low friction line first (spectra?)

Thanks, keep your thoughts comin'.

Donricardo
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Old 12-27-2008, 04:57 PM   #6
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I was always very attracted to the original idea of the sail fitting around the mast - largely because of the consistent leading edge but I did hear that raising and lowering could be awkward.

Not exactly helpful, I know, but, why did you decide to change?

Peter
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Old 12-30-2008, 12:58 PM   #7
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I was always very attracted to the original idea of the sail fitting around the mast - largely because of the consistent leading edge but I did hear that raising and lowering could be awkward.

Not exactly helpful, I know, but, why did you decide to change?

Peter
Hi Peter,

Cost and weight. You're right about the leading edge thing, but I'm not racing anywhere (except downwind) and the double sail is a double cost plus the hoisting friction.

scott (donricardo) a great Bahamian Rum
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Old 12-30-2008, 06:45 PM   #8
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Hi,

Important--is your mast cross section round or not?

Also, plenty of carbon fiber masts out there with mast tracks. What makes you think your's wouldn't be ok with a track?
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Old 12-30-2008, 09:55 PM   #9
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scott (donricardo) a great Bahamian Rum
Now I'd love to chat again about freestanding rigs - it's the enthusiastic little boy thing - but it's all been done here somewhere before (Freestanding rigs or Sponberg should find the topic) and I'd start wondering if it hadn't all been done with a mast pocket rather than a complete wrap around but ...

... now wondering more about the Don Ricardo and if I'd like it as much as Mount Gay and the slightly more grown-up, English Harbour - hang-on, you've just given me an idea for New Year's Eve!

Have a good end to 2008 and a great start to 2009!
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Old 06-06-2014, 10:16 AM   #10
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Default Follow up on your conversion to single ply

I have a freedom 28 with 2 ply wrap around sails. I am looking at single ply options keeping the wishbone booms. What option did you choose? Are you happy with your conversion? Fairwinds, Art
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