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Old 09-04-2011, 11:37 PM   #1
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The original owner/designer of my yacht had her fitted out for cruising with motor/ sail in Indonesian waters. Since taking ownership about 5 years ago I have made several modifications to improve her sailing performance and liveaboard comfort.

The last mod was to add three jibs on an extended bowsprit, and topsails to the main and mizzen gaffs. All is fine until there is a fresh to strong wind, and the sails tend to take control instead of the rudder.

I was thinking of changing the stern layout as the original owner had built the crs (heads) / thunderboxs over the stern. Not only is this unsightly but would be banned in any western / developed port like Oz or USA. I would like to change her to an eliptical stern like an old Rye built sailing smack, and increase the rudder size with a large wooden rudder with tiller steering.

Its impossible for me to take away the original rudder, so I thought to increase the length of the skeg, and fix the wooden rudder to the transom. If I keep the engine rudder (under motor) midships would the yacht be able to be steered with the large rudder (sailing rudder). In other words I would have two rudders, one for motor sailing, and another when we are fully canvassed.

Any thoughts.
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Old 09-05-2011, 04:17 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by jibsail View Post

The last mod was to add three jibs on an extended bowsprit, and topsails to the main and mizzen gaffs. All is fine until there is a fresh to strong wind, and the sails tend to take control instead of the rudder.

Any thoughts.
Hi Jib Sail, without knowing exactly the current sail-plan measurements; Together with an accurate graphic of the boat's hull, keel, skeg and rudder

The problem as described is probably due to the Center of Effort being moved forward by the additional head sails. The Center of Lateral resistance is not able to counter the resulting imbalance.

It is very unlikely that the boats performance can be improved by these add-ons/adjustments. This type of craft was evolved over hundreds of years as an island trader,When time was not a major factor.
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Old 09-05-2011, 05:43 AM   #3
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Very nice reply MM!
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Old 09-09-2011, 12:44 PM   #4
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Hello MMNETSEA

Yes I agree with you, before we did the mods,she would go with the wind very nicely, the crew (buginese) would rig sails mainly to steady her against the wind so that she would not roll. Crossing the Gulf of Tongean ( north Sulawesi) which is like a wind funnel, we had a stiff breeze on the port quarter. the crew raised the mizzen, small jib and main sail - first time they had done so, and she was finely balanced.

I still think I will change the stern layout as I cannot see the port authorities in Brisbane/ Queensland allowing me to take a shower and a dump over the stern.

jib - Philippines.
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Old 09-10-2011, 08:42 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by jibsail View Post

Hello MMNETSEA

Yes I agree with you, before we did the mods,she would go with the wind very nicely, the crew (buginese) would rig sails mainly to steady her against the wind so that she would not roll. Crossing the Gulf of Tongean ( north Sulawesi) which is like a wind funnel, we had a stiff breeze on the port quarter. the crew raised the mizzen, small jib and main sail - first time they had done so, and she was finely balanced.

I still think I will change the stern layout as I cannot see the port authorities in Brisbane/ Queensland allowing me to take a shower and a dump over the stern.

jib - Philippines.
Jib,

It might be an idea to check with the Australian authorities to confirm the standards that will be applied to your boat - you might find that you will not be allowed to berth that boat - plus the factor that it is coming from Indonesia.
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Old 09-13-2011, 03:03 AM   #6
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It cracks me up, sometimes, how someone will purchase a boat and then decide it was designed and built all wrong and then spend great amounts of time and money correcting a conceived problem... at very little gain!

"The rig is all wrong." "The engine is too small." "They should have put a wheel here - not a tiller." "Why did they put post right there in the middle of the saloon?" "The keel is too long." "I think she'd steer better with TWO rudders." "I CAN MAKE IT BETTER THAN THE DESIGNER."

I believe it's better for me to adapt to the vessel instead of adapting the vessel to me. Certainly cheaper!

But - I suppose some people prefer working on their sailboat more than sailing on their sailboat.

And there's nothing really wrong with that, either!

To Life!

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Old 09-17-2011, 06:38 AM   #7
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Boats evolve, the same as the person that sails and lives on them does. When I built my first trawler in the seventies in was fitted with the max size HP I can fit in the engine room, trawl gantry and trawl winch. After a couple of years, the powers to be decided that fishing grounds were closed to trawliing and that boats should be modified to other methods. I fitted a net and line hauler for gill netting and long lining. It was impossible to change boats as licences were unique to boats and getting a new licence was impossible.

Same with sail boats, mine was originally designed for motor sailing with enough sail to steady her but not enough to give a forward power. Now diesel has doubled in price a 1000 mile voyage burning 200 litres a day is not very economical. So try to increase the sail area and sail rather than keep the engine running. A reverse was seen 100 years ago, the old fishing smacks trawling off north coast iceland relied purely in sai power to sail and pull the trawl. When engines small enough could be fitted , most of the fleet fitted an engine, thus was born the steam trawler and drifer but still using the sails.

Classic boats are more than just performance, they are a way of life, if I can use wood deadeyes, and wood cleats then great, living in the Philippines is a matter of making most of what you can get, and yachting equipment and gear is simply not available.
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Old 09-17-2011, 09:26 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by jibsail View Post

Boats evolve,

Same with sail boats, mine was originally designed for motor sailing with enough sail to steady her but not enough to give a forward power. Now diesel has doubled in price a 1000 mile voyage burning 200 litres a day is not very economical. So try to increase the sail area and sail rather than keep the engine running.
Unfortunately the Phinisi has evolved as a displacement vessel, it cannot go any faster than its Froude number - If its LWL is say 62ft, then irrespective of numbers of sails, the HP of engine or the combination thereof, the boats top speed over ground will not exceed 10.5 knots.

However,as a result of excessive freeboard and the surface of the hull below water, the result could be no more than 50% of the calculated hull speed.
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Old 09-23-2011, 04:31 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jibsail View Post

Boats evolve, the same as the person that sails and lives on them does. When I built my first trawler in the seventies in was fitted with the max size HP I can fit in the engine room, trawl gantry and trawl winch. After a couple of years, the powers to be decided that fishing grounds were closed to trawliing and that boats should be modified to other methods. I fitted a net and line hauler for gill netting and long lining. It was impossible to change boats as licences were unique to boats and getting a new licence was impossible.

Same with sail boats, mine was originally designed for motor sailing with enough sail to steady her but not enough to give a forward power. Now diesel has doubled in price a 1000 mile voyage burning 200 litres a day is not very economical. So try to increase the sail area and sail rather than keep the engine running. A reverse was seen 100 years ago, the old fishing smacks trawling off north coast iceland relied purely in sai power to sail and pull the trawl. When engines small enough could be fitted , most of the fleet fitted an engine, thus was born the steam trawler and drifer but still using the sails.

Classic boats are more than just performance, they are a way of life, if I can use wood deadeyes, and wood cleats then great, living in the Philippines is a matter of making most of what you can get, and yachting equipment and gear is simply not available.
Jibsail,

Boats do evolve--but a good rig design wouldn't put you in such a difficult situation as you're having with your boat. If you wish to have a lovely long bowsprit and all the headsails there, you really need to do the calcs to figure out how to make that happen safely and with good performance on your existing hull. I recall that I said something similar to you a couple years back when you were doing this and talking about sails. Suggest that if you're not mathematically inclined nor have the appropriate reference books to work with that you hire a naval architect or competent rig designer--or both--to assist you with getting the rig right.

Classic boats are indeed more than just performance. I can agree since I live aboard and sail such a classic. However, "classic" goesn't mean kludge it together: good design is simply that--good. And bad ideas or bad implementation of a good idea is not classic it's just bad. Boats evolve in terrible ways when someone, well meaning, doesn't understand the big picture and the limits of what they are trying to do. Get some professional help and you'll likely be able to do what you want without re-arranging the entire boat to do it.

Fair winds,
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