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Old 05-26-2009, 08:59 PM   #29
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My, My, My are we not cranky. I have not posted for crew nor will I . I am bringing up points that many of my bluewater brethern agree with. I have been cruising for 35 years and countless miles. Back then you could not get offshore insurance. People realized there was risk as awell as reward to passagemaking. Now I see people setting their itenary by the dictates of their insurance company. Personaly I go offshore to get away from this type of crap. Another thing, I beleive you are bound by the laws of the flag you fly while in international waters. Have a nice life. Fairwinds and fast passages. Taisho over and out
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Old 05-26-2009, 09:33 PM   #30
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No, not cranky, just tired of repeating the same thing time and again to get people to understand. Let me try to put it simply:

* You are entitled to your opinion

* Many will agree with you

* Many will dissagree with you

* This forum has a rule saying we will not allow ads for paying crew

* How hard is the above to understand?

* If you do not understand this or are not willing to follow our rules the please leave. There are other fora where you will be made welcome.
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Old 07-05-2009, 09:15 AM   #31
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This forum has no interest in how cruisers fund their cruising lifestyle. However, if money changes hands with crew (over and above an equal share of food costs and any "per person" entry fees, etc,) then it would be expected that you should pay for advertising for that crew and not use free facilities such as this. Many crewfinders accept this but CL does not wish to condone the practice.

This crewfinder was established to assist genuine cruisers to find genuine crew to assist them on passages - NOT to make money.
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Old 07-05-2009, 05:21 PM   #32
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This forum has no interest in how cruisers fund their cruising lifestyle. However, if money changes hands with crew (over and above an equal share of food costs and any "per person" entry fees, etc,) then it would be expected that you should pay for advertising for that crew and not use free facilities such as this. Many crewfinders accept this but CL does not wish to condone the practice.

This crewfinder was established to assist genuine cruisers to find genuine crew to assist them on passages - NOT to make money.
In addition to the wonderful crewfinder for folks who are looking to crew w/o a fee or get crew for free...Cruiser Log has very nicely also set up a free crewfinder for folks who, for whatever reason (charter boat skippers, etc) are looking for paying jobs. That site is here: http://cruiserlog.ipbfree.com/index.php We don't advertise the site, and it's not used much as of yet, but is there as a resource.

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Old 09-03-2009, 06:32 PM   #33
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I like learning the more i read the better i see the picture.... sharks do have 2 legs, where i lived in Plett i educated tourist all the time, be carefull of the ones living on land..
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Old 09-03-2009, 06:58 PM   #34
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.... sharks do have 2 legs,..
Almost invariably!
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Old 09-07-2009, 07:48 PM   #35
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Hello Forum moderators etal,

I have been off site for almost a year, and you are still having the same discussions, and judging by this thread, you are frustrated by having to answer the same questions.

I understand your rules, and understand the issues, what I do not understand is the arbitrary nature of the application of forum rules as the rules are stated. No ads for paying crew, OK fine, This is supposed to be a site for private vessels, not charters or commercial ventures. But yet this site allows for a paid charter boat skipper to advertise for allegedly non paid crew even on his commercial venture, ie, paid delivery of a private yacht, which in some cases is not exactly free to the non paying crew when all is said and done.

I had numerous discussions on this topic with staff and students of several competency certification schools while in Durban, SA. The staff freely admitted they were steering students to this web site, not find a crew or other commercial sites. to hook up with the skipper. The students I spoke to said the reality is that it was not exactly at no cost to them to gain this experience. No plane tickets home, some times they needed to kick in for food, there was no paid time off when ashore, ferry service to and from the boat in St Helelna was not paid, ditto port fees, if they got to the point of departure at the appointed hour and the boat was not ready, they were on their own until it was ready, the litany was long and varied. Now these boats were for the charter boat fleet in the Carib, manufactured in SA with a skipper who was paid to have a competent crew as required by law and insurance for this commercial delivery venture. If this is not a commercial venture, what is it? I really would like to hear your rational on this issue. Surely this is a more difficult legal/insurance situation than a private skipper getting reimbursed for nominal expenses on his own personal craft for recreational crew volunteering to help sail his boat.

As you may remember, I was allowed to post requests, for shared expense crew, for quite some time, until some unidentified individual became vitriolic (perhaps vitriolic posters should be disallowed) about my posts, and as requested, I no longer post such requests on the site. I was and stil am asking reimbursed for food and fuel, at a rate of just at $15US per day, clearly not at the limit of that 60 foot vessel mentioned in the earlier post. This is the only cruising site site that seems to have a problem with this type of funding at that modest a level. Notably, the pay as you go site every one recommends as an alternative crew finder even has as part of its selections for recreational crew to "share expenses". They apparently do not see the legal or insurance issues as being show stoppers that this forum keeps throwing up as validation of the rules.

One final point regarding international rules, the fact that some british agency agrees with your thinking does not make your view an absolute international concept; as one poster noted, there is a diverence of opinion on this amongst different national agencies, the USCG for one.

As an aside, inviting people to leave the forum when there is a disagreement that has been professionaly and politely expressed, is not what internet forums are about. Just as you note in this thread, this is an public and international forum, not a private US forum. If you wish is a place to hold forth on your personal views, without discussion, it would be more properly called a blog. Since it is a public forum, one can expect disagreement on opinions, sometimes that is frustrating to the moderators, but they are there to moderate the discussion, not muzzle it.

I suggest these thoughts not because I think I can sway your opinions regarding paying crew but just to help you understand why some are frustrated with the views of this web site in regard to this specific topic. In general, I would say that the posts I have read by the moderators are reasonably restrained and well expressed. Neverthless I still sense frustration in the moderators posts at having to continuously support their position; I would suggest that that reason is those of us on the outside ooking in find the position to be arbitrary; those with whom I have discussed this issue believe you have expressed your position adequately. Regretably, the execution of the policy just does not match the justifications tendered.

With warm regards, hope you are enjoying Labor Day, and continue to enjoy cruising!

Tom
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Old 09-07-2009, 08:13 PM   #36
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Hi Tom,

Warm welcome back to CruiserLog and thanks for a marathon post! I hope the past year has been good to you and that you have enjoyed your cruising to the full.

To give you my take on your comments let me first begin with your "aside". Of course you are right. I am sure no one here has anything against people voicing their opinions - that is what a discussion forum is all about. However, we have our basic rules which we want people to follow. It is not a matter of opinion as that can, within the bounds of decency and the law, be freely expressed here.

I will not dwell any longer on the original issue - that has been thrashed about far too long. All we ask is that people do not post for paying crew and, if we are the only forum with that standpoint, then I think we have found our niche.

Of course, there will always be someone who gets through the net. The choice is not to have the crewing boards or to have them with a few basic rules to be followed, accepting that it cannot be absolutely watertight. I, for one, would not like to see the crewing boards disappear. They are here as a service to cruisers and crew seekers but, hand on heart, by their very nature do not generate other than a flitting interest as once a crew member and a boat are "hooked up" they are obviously setting sail and, generally, we do not hear from them again - more is the pity because they could contribute much to the other discussions.

You, I am pleased to see, are one of the exceptions. You are back again. We always like to see old friends return.

Aye // Stephen
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Old 09-07-2009, 10:58 PM   #37
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Hi Tom,

Warm welcome back to CruiserLog and thanks for a marathon post! I hope the past year has been good to you and that you have enjoyed your cruising to the full.

To give you my take on your comments let me first begin with your "aside". Of course you are right. I am sure no one here has anything against people voicing their opinions - that is what a discussion forum is all about. However, we have our basic rules which we want people to follow. It is not a matter of opinion as that can, within the bounds of decency and the law, be freely expressed here.

I will not dwell any longer on the original issue - that has been thrashed about far too long. All we ask is that people do not post for paying crew and, if we are the only forum with that standpoint, then I think we have found our niche.

Of course, there will always be someone who gets through the net. The choice is not to have the crewing boards or to have them with a few basic rules to be followed, accepting that it cannot be absolutely watertight. I, for one, would not like to see the crewing boards disappear. They are here as a service to cruisers and crew seekers but, hand on heart, by their very nature do not generate other than a flitting interest as once a crew member and a boat are "hooked up" they are obviously setting sail and, generally, we do not hear from them again - more is the pity because they could contribute much to the other discussions.

You, I am pleased to see, are one of the exceptions. You are back again. We always like to see old friends return.

Aye // Stephen
Thanks Steve for welcoming me back. Cruising hss been wonderful aside from a transmission that seems to have a mind of its own and an anchor windlass that has been giving fits. I would recommend Madagascar and Suriname as too excellent spots ot visit for those who wish a bit of insight into other cultures, and where there are relativelyfew other cruisers!

On to the topic!

I would like an answer to my question, why allow charter boat delivery guys post looking for crew and deny someone like myself? These are not just a case of one isloated individual, there are many boats being delivered in just this manner to the Carribean. I would like an answer; no one, as best I can tell addressed that specific question.

This of course asks a key issue regarding the core policy or rules established by the forum, so I think it is appropriate for those individuals responsible for formulating and implementing the policy to address the topic, politely and appropriately. If the issue of why delivery skippers has been addressed before, please point me to the relevant thread, then I can judge for myself the consistency of the rationale behind the policy.

Short of that, I do not think the original isssue has been thrashed about far too long, I for one, and apparently others would like to talk about this issue, but what I am hearing from the moderators is that they do not wish to hear discussion about what is clearly an open issue world wide.

When you read the initial threads, it is apparent that the moderators opinion is against the policy of allowing paid crew, it also appears the moderators are against having any further discussion on the topic. Why so, what is wrong with debate? If the discussion does not line up with the moderators opinions, but the discussion is relevant to the topic, is done within reasonable bounds of decency and within the "law", why not have dialogue? I of course can chose not to continue to discuss the topic, so can a moderator, the difference is the moderator must review the posts, just as they do any other posts, to check for decency and appropriatness to the topic. If the opinions offend the moderators personal opinion, they need not comment, only if the post is not appropriate to the topic or is considered personally offensive.

Of course if the moderators are making the policy at hand, they should be able to explain the policy, if that becomes an issue. The moderator should abide by the same rules of discussion that apply to all posters when doing so. Regretably that defense often takes time and effort, lots of time and effort, but you volunteered for the position, I did not!!!

Moderate, but do not mandate, what will or will not be discussed. If a given modertor finds it difficult to answer the policy questions, or if the bulk of posters find a consensus on an issue that is contrary to a set of forum rules, perhaps a review of policy is in order.

Warm Regards

Tom
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Old 09-08-2009, 12:04 AM   #38
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Welcome back Tom. This is really an issue for you isn't it? There is so much other good stuff on the forum to get your teeth into and you are very qualified to contribute constructively on many of the discussions.

Quote:
Notably, the pay as you go site every one recommends as an alternative crew finder even has as part of its selections for recreational crew to "share expenses". They apparently do not see the legal or insurance issues as being show stoppers that this forum keeps throwing up as validation of the rules.
You pays your money and post what you like! Please use those alternatives if they have no restrictions in their operating policy or "unfair" rules such as on CL. The Net is full of choices.

This is the whole issue. We are NOT a specialist crewfinder and let me repeat; the crewfinder was set up on this site to assist genuine cruisers to find extra hands to assist them on longer passages. This is the oldest crewfinder of this type on the Net and it did not take others too long to realise that there was money to be made in this concept. Good luck to them.

You appear to want CL to "reform policy" as you feel that the crewfinder is being run unfairly. Well, unfortunately, the next "policy reform" will be to remove the crewfinders altogether as they have been more trouble than they are worth. They would have been closed down some time ago except for the fact that we get so much positive feedback. Bad, "unfair" examples of CL "policy" do however slip through for which I apologise.

But, this "debate" has gone on for so long (too long now), and the "dead horse" has been revived again now so perhaps you have initiated the need for us to shut down the crewfinder and finally put an end to this aggrivating thorn in our sides once and for all. The administrator and moderators would certainly enjoy and appreciate the break from the horse-whipping on this issue.

CL has the right to set it's own rules and if they have been unfair it was not the intention.

The administration and moderators will discuss how best to pull the crewfinders over the next couple of days so there is no need to discuss your other questions about deliveries, etc. Apologies to those members that have used the CL crewfinder successfully over the many years will come later.

Thank you for your input Tom, it has assisted CL to take a final decision. We all give up freely of our time to ensure that the forums run smoothly and it will certainly be easier on us all without the crewfinders.

Cheers!
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Old 09-08-2009, 12:28 AM   #39
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For someone like me entering this world, this is interesting indeed..
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Old 09-08-2009, 01:52 AM   #40
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Hello Lighthouse

Regarding my ability to constructively post on many issues, you are correct.

This issue happens to be one of them.

I have tried to express my opinions, and that is all they are, just opinons, based on of a few of my observations and discussion with folks in SA, as clearly and professionaly as I am capable. I get the sense that this has offended you, for that I am truly sorry.

I see no sense in expressing my opinions on other forums where the policies already support my opinions on this issue, but rather it seems to me to make more sense to speak directly to the cruising forum that had a direct impact on my cruising. I responded to the strongly stated opinions of others on this forum, I spoke specifically on topic and supported by my own personal observations, regarding what I believe to be a stated policy that is not consistent to the implementation of that policy. If this offends you, again I say I am truly sorry, but it is what free debate is about. Nevertheless, I am still waiting for an answer on topic.

If the policy makers of this forum, whoever they may be, chose to close down what they believe to be a valuable service to the cruising community, the burden is on those policy makers, not on those individuals that identify a problem. Since this has been an ongoing issue for some years, that fact alone indicates some major issues with the policy. The fact that the forum is considering shutting down this service rather than engaging in healthy dialogue, also suggests an underlying problem. So perhaps it is in the forums best interest to discontinue the service. That would be especially true if the policy makers do not see it as a core service to the cruising community but just a headache.

But again, I am not one of the policy makers, and clearly the decidion to close the service or not is one that belongs with policy makers of this forum.

Warm regards and best wishes going forward, this forum does provide an excellent service, despite our disagreements on this issue.

Tom
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Old 09-08-2009, 07:45 AM   #41
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The fact that the forum is considering shutting down this service rather than engaging in healthy dialogue, also suggests an underlying problem. So perhaps it is in the forums best interest to discontinue the service. That would be especially true if the policy makers do not see it as a core service to the cruising community but just a headache.
So much positive feedback that we have received over the years clearly indicates that our crewfinder is a good service for the CRUISING COMMUNITY - to those that are happy to accept the CL crewfinder usage policy. However, there are many that wish to bend the CL crewfinder "rules" and go to great lengths to tell us (often with much abuse) how to change these rules to suit their own agendas. To those I say; open your own facility and set your own "rules". This is the "headache"!

I have personally been involved in this "issue" for 10 years now. If I appear to be unwilling to debate the issue (again) it is because I have been down this road so many times and I am tired of it. My vote is to close down the crewfinders, but, the decision will be taken after rational engagement with the full admin team.

My apologies to you, our forum readers, crewfinder users and the rest of the admin team for my unwillingness to further discuss this issue here.

With great respect.
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Old 09-08-2009, 05:38 PM   #42
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When you read the initial threads, it is apparent that the moderators opinion is against the policy of allowing paid crew....

Moderate, but do not mandate, what will or will not be discussed. If a given modertor finds it difficult to answer the policy questions, or if the bulk of posters find a consensus on an issue that is contrary to a set of forum rules, perhaps a review of policy is in order.

Warm Regards

Tom
First, welcome back.

I would hope that disagreeing with one or more of the moderators of this board doesn't mean that we are disagreeable?

This board is moderated by a motley crew with widely varied attitudes and opinions on many topics, but we all get along and we can agree to disagree. You're free to choose with whom, what, and when you agree or disagree on this board.

Part of my personal position with regard to the crewfinder is my distaste for a cruising boat owner asking for contributions to the operation of the boat from the crew that he needs to help him run the boat. We've only taken on crew once, and a great crew member he was. We didn't really need his help, but it was welcome. We did not need any contribution from him, and did not take any. He was pleasant company on a longish passage (3 legs, 19, 13, and 4 days) and a great help. We met many people who took on crew, or simply friendly hitch-hikers, and I don't recall any of them making a contribution beyond a reasonable share of food and their own personal expenses. Which is as it should be. If an owner can't afford, for example, the Panama Canal transit without his crew contributing a share of the fee, I don't believe the owner should be transiting the Panama Canal! If the owner can't afford the boat fee for Cocos Island without the crew kicking in part of it, well then he shouldn't be going there. The per person charges, though, are understandably crew expenses, provided that the crew knows about them in advance. If the skipper is the only person who wants to go to Cocos but can't get there without crew, and the crew don't want to go, well, then, why is the skipper asking the crew to pay to go where they don't want to? You get the idea, I think.

I repeat myself I know, but here goes.

There is another issue here, and that is the safety and protection of the crew. In our experience we have seen that if there is any reason that an insurance company can find for not paying a claim, it will not. I know of one time that a crew member was seriously injured in a boat accident and the owner "snuck away in the dead of the night" leaving all medical expenses to be paid by the injured crew or the charity of others. I assume it was because the owner did not have insurance that would pay for the bills. Either that or he was a rotter. It's one reason I urge all crew to be sure to see the boat's insurance policy and make note of pertinent information before they leave the dock. If the owner is found to have illegally used the boat for charter and he is not insured for it, is not a licensed captain when one is required by the laws of his country and the insurance compay, well, then, no insurance benefits are available to that crew/"charterer."

I would not require that an owner state how much a crewmember should kick in for food since in many places it would be significantly less than $10 or $15 per day, but other moderators on the board don't agree with me, and well, it's not that big a deal. It could be more, I agree, but it would have to be a filet mignon and truffles diet to get up in the $15 per day range in most places.

I really don't care how an owner tries to justify his charging; as the owner of the boat it is he who decides whether to run the engines, stay in a marina, visit countries that charge the boat for entry. If he is asking his working crew to pay any portion of that when it is not specifically a charge assessed for each person on the boat, then the owner is profiting from his crew without providing anything but a sailing trip and a place to work in return. I personally would not want to be on a boat where the skipper could not afford to run it without taking on paying crew to help with his expenses. If he can't afford to visit places without help, what else on the boat can he not afford to pay for? Proper maintenance? Working gear?

Now I'm repeating myself a bit too much.

If an owner can find crew willing to pay boat costs in order to work on the boat, that's the crew's choice, but we do not want that posting on CL. Make your money from somebody else's crew board, not this free one. If we learned of a boat misrepresenting itself in that way on the CL crewfinder, well, you already know that we're going to delete the post, don't you?

Finally (I think), the issue of delivery skippers and crew. For persons who need experience or miles, crewing on a delivery boat is a good way to get that experience and miles and I think it's a great opportunity for wannabe cruising sailors. If a delivery skipper made his crew pay for food or boat expenses, we would most likely delete his post here. However, I personally see no problem with a delivery skipper posting for crew on CL provided he follows the same rules as all the other boats. It would be a sorry delivery skipper if he made his working crew pay for their food and board - run, crew, run from such a skipper. Yes, a delivery skipper is paid for his work, and sometimes he has to pay crew. Then it's purely commercial and again, not for this board.

I like delivery skippers and have several friends who do that work, some for pay, some for the sheer pleasure of getting out on the water.

If the skippers provide us with more information about the good, and bad, boats, we have an invaluable resource there. One thing that too many cruising sailors fail to do is to be brutally honest about the problems and mistakes they have made. I include my husband and me in that assessment, though I TRY to be honest. Delivery skippers, though, usually have little invested in the boat, particularly the horror story boats, so they can provide us with some good information. (Paid captains can't do that, and I understand their reluctance to bite the hand that is feeding them and don't hold it against them).

However, all my discussions and arguments aside, I can't understand why you want to belabor this issue. If you don't like CL's restrictions and rules and you know we're not going to change, you don't have to use our crewfinder.

One final issue before we say the last rites for this dead horse. I like the Crewfinders, but it is more work and causes more consternation than any of the other categories on this board. It is a rare skipper or crew who give anything back to this board after finding their boat or crew, so perhaps we're doing a lot of work for nothing in return. Yet you think that our position on allowing commercial posts is wrong-headed. Why do you feel that the webmaster of this free forum should pay for the privilege of lining somebody else's pockets?

My fellow moderators are probably groaning right now, "oh, Jeanne, don't encourage him - again." I like to argue though I doubt that I can change your mind. That's okay, though. We can still be friends on this board.

Fair winds,

Jeanne
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