Live-aboardability...

[Charlie Jones]

On the 4 burner stove- waste of space. We lived aboard a 35 foot trimaran and had a 3 burner with oven. The oven was nice, but the third burner was almost never used, if at all. Even here in my house we've to my knowledge NEVER had all four burners going at once.

The other problem is there just wasn't enough room on the cooktop for three pots, even had we had the need.

If you have the space, a two burner stove with an oven would be great. That's all you'll really ever use anyway.

On an offshore boat, I see little real need for a dedicated chart table. Even the Pardeys, who have sailed around twice, don't have one aboard Taleisin. Or feel the need. And inshore, we almost always have the chart in the cockpit anyway.

Why give that much room to something you only look at a couple times a day? Now space for radios, GPS, etc, is different.

[MMNETSEA]

Hi Atavist,

Thanks for the additional information :-

Taking the general criteria that you have set yourself :

#1. The length of the boat ? = 27 >>> 34 --- Average 30.5 ft -- 31ft

#2. LWL measurement? = based on 31ft LOA = +/- 26ft

#3. The Beam measurement ? = Around 11ft

#4. Centre or Aft Cockpit ? = Centre Cockpit

#5. what sort of $ price range = 20 K >> 33 K US$

Sailboats that meet the above Criteria :-

The Ericson 34

The S2

The Tiara S2

Also check out "imagine2frolic" post suggesting Coronado. The have an owners forum :-

http://sailing.cnchost.com/board/?topic=topic1&msg=2151

My very first Sailboat was a Nantucket Island 33 with a Centre Cockpit - Designer Peter Cole - good sized aft cabin. Built in Taiwan - many exported to Australia - excellent cruising boat for a couple. Teak Deck was too hot for the tropics , I should have taken it off.





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My comments regarding Tankage referred to built in tankage and the need for additional fuel capacity

Quote :-

"Which means that as a cruising boat to go far offshore in the low latitudes, it is going to need to carry additional fuel ( the average being 100 US gallons - from surveys of offshore cruising yachts)"



This information I gleaned from the excellent book on cruising by Jimmy Cornell "Passion for the Sea" just published by Noonsite.com. Here is an extract from page 453 :-



This continues " ought to have enough fuel to be able to motor between one quarter and one third of the entire distance should there be a serious emergency"

J - Atavist, I hope that whatever boat you choose meets your aspirations - there will be compromises, and because what suits one sailor may not suit the other - the choice is endless.

All the best wishes in your search.

Richard

[atavist]

Originally Posted by SeaVenture

Atavist,

You could always do what we did and buy an old boat with ballroom floors in the salon and pilothouse, then fill those up with a great u-shaped galley and a good nav station!

Normandie,

As I continue my boat search I realize how sound this advice is, as I can not find just the right boat.... now the question is: Any ideas of the best way to find such a boat??... the online search engines don't accomodate the "no interior" criterion very well.

J

[redbopeep]

Originally Posted by atavist

Normandie,

As I continue my boat search I realize how sound this advice is, as I can not find just the right boat.... now the question is: Any ideas of the best way to find such a boat??... the online search engines don't accomodate the "no interior" criterion very well.

J

If you can find something you can live with doing just small changes you'll come out ahead financially. If you really want to start from scratch and make your own way with an older hull, look at your local newspapers, craigs' list, etc for bargain boats.

We purchased such a boat with interior gutted by previous owner, because we wanted to restore something quite old and wanted to know the structural integrity of the boat inside out. Ours is 54' length on deck--big enough for good live-aboard-ability. Regarding layout, we're actually returning it to pretty much exactly its original 1930's era layout/configuration per the naval architect's plans.

That's because its original config was stated to be a comfy live aboard for its original owner. He acknowledged in an article he wrote for Yachting about the boat (in 1932) that it was his "bitter experience" that he would only be able to get away for a few weeks each summer for real cruising and thus, the boat was designed for comfortable single handing and a life aboard the mooring during the summer months that he and his family visited Maine from Long Island Sound (where the boat was usually kept the rest of the year). The man, his wife and 4 children lived aboard the boat all summer and did limited cruising. Later, the boat was used extensively by various owners for blue water cruising and even ocean races but the core design was for comfort--large galley, lots of storage, lots of comfy berths (though only 1 double), and with a small deck saloon/chart house that really fits today's cruising with room for lots of charts, computer, nav equipment and a second (interior) steering station.

You can find numerous boats that are basic hulls just waiting for someone to fit them out. In the Sourthern California boatyard we're in, there are many "abandoned" project boats. There was a 40'ish foot steel boat that someone bought recently to re-do after the first owner gave up. A fiberglass 36' boat that some fool gutted and abandoned...another fellow just bought it. A Westsail that has been likewise disassembled and is likely to be abandoned soon by the fellow who got in over his head. We just were talking with a fellow who works on boats there for people who has recounted how several of these boats have been abandoned and purchased by a new owner who has then worked a bit and abandoned the project boat. We considered a 47' aluminum boat for less than 10K in North Carolina, the previous owner had started a re-fit of the boat and given up and the marina ended up selling it for slip fees of around 10K. If we'd known more about boats at the time we saw it, we'd have snatched it up because it was such a good deal because it wasn't as "bare" as many other project boats.

These "project" boats are all over the place and they're cheap. But with cost of materials you won't save money purchasing one or even being given one--it will only allow you lots of freedom to set the boat up as you see fit because its been largely gutted by the previous owner.

If you KNOW that you're going to do a lot of reconfiguring--do look for one of these project boats to personalize.

Best of luck in finding the perfect boat for your purposes.

[redbopeep]

Originally Posted by Charlie Jones

On the 4 burner stove- waste of space. We lived aboard a 35 foot trimaran and had a 3 burner with oven. The oven was nice, but the third burner was almost never used, if at all. Even here in my house we've to my knowledge NEVER had all four burners going at once.

The other problem is there just wasn't enough room on the cooktop for three pots, even had we had the need.

If you have the space, a two burner stove with an oven would be great. That's all you'll really ever use anyway.

On an offshore boat, I see little real need for a dedicated chart table. Even the Pardeys, who have sailed around twice, don't have one aboard Taleisin. Or feel the need. And inshore, we almost always have the chart in the cockpit anyway.

Why give that much room to something you only look at a couple times a day? Now space for radios, GPS, etc, is different.

I can make do indefinitely on one burner if I have to. I lived in Japan with a 2 burner stove and no oven for two years and have been in this studio apartment with a tiny stove/oven for over a year. But, before moving here to fix up the boat, I spent 13 years joyfully living with a 6 burner range with 2 ovens and 2 broilers and I can tell you there were many, many times that I had 4 or 5 burners going along with both ovens. Our 30' non-cruising boat has a 3 burner stove with big oven and I frequently have 2 burners going. The only reason that all three aren't in use is that I don't have enough pots on the boat. Many boat stoves I've seen are small because of confined space in the galley--they're so small that my favorite pots don't even fit on them!

If you enjoy cooking (and canning!)--get the biggest/best stove/oven combo you can work with--it will be a pleasure to use. While we re-fit our boat, I've got an eye out for a ship's stove rather than a yacht stove since we do have room for something larger on board this boat with its large galley. Originally it had a large duel fuel range that we'd love to find something like.

[atavist]

Originally Posted by redbopeep

If you can find something you can live with doing just small changes you'll come out ahead financially. If you really want to start from scratch and make your own way with an older hull, look at your local newspapers, craigs' list, etc for bargain boats.

thanks, Ironically what I want to gut is usually what other people spend lots of money adding... i want a boat without an inboard engine or extensive wiring and electronics... as I will most likely be single handing most of the time and plan to spend extended time away from civilization, and only motor in port, it's just too much space lost and too much of a power requirement... A good outboard with a locking mount and a single jerry can of gas is good enough for me, while my electric needs can be met with a small solar suite.... 99.9% of boats these days come with WAY too many gadgets intended for the dockside or motor sailor.... I'm already a pretty handy carpenter and would much rather take a couple of classes in yacht interior design than settle for something less than my ideal.

Originally Posted by redbopeep

If you enjoy cooking (and canning!)--get the biggest/best stove/oven combo you can work with--it will be a pleasure to use. While we re-fit our boat, I've got an eye out for a ship's stove rather than a yacht stove since we do have room for something larger on board this boat with its large galley. Originally it had a large duel fuel range that we'd love to find something like.

Sound advice... I'd much rather spend my space on a big oven for cooking and canning than on a tv... or even extra berths...

[SeaVenture]

Sound advice... I'd much rather spend my space on a big oven for cooking and canning than on a tv... or even extra berths...

It's amazing how much time one spends cooking--even when it's not a favorite pastime, because eating well is! And a good stove makes this process much easier. Ours is 30 years old, but with the addition of a few new knobs and a face plate, it works like a charm.

If you're looking to singlehand a boat that's going to be powered into tight places with an outboard, you probably want to look at light and small. My wooden sharpie is without motor, but is light enough to bring home in the gentlest winds. My step-father owned a 20-something sloop that was so heavy the outboard couldn't fight an opposing current if the wind wasn't from the right quarter to help out. Sailing that to Cape Lookout one day when I'd been moseying along and not paying attention to the tides was an experience in frustration I never repeated: each tack took me further away from rounding the hook--forward two steps and back three. I finally gave up and anchored until the tides turned, but it was a lesson: if you're going to rely on an outboard, make it fit the boat.

Redbopeep is correct in that project boats about. Here in northern CA, the docks are lined with neglected fiberglass relics. But finding one that meets your requirements may take some hunting. Good luck in the search.

[redbopeep]

Well, now that we're aboard our cruising boat for almost 2 years, I can say this--we spend the entire summer "one burner cooking" with a non-pressure alcohol stove set atop our solid fuel stove. I don't cook much in the summers! But in the colder weather (take it in stride that California only gets so cold!) during the fall, winter, and spring months I find myself baking, baking, baking as well as cooking lots of stews and soups and whatnot on the 6 burner shipmate solid fuel ship's stove we found for the boat. It has worked out quite nicely, I must say.

[Seafarer]

Atavist- you may be interested in the Seafarer 38. It has the classic look that you prefer and was a well-built vessel. In my opinion it is a little under-canvassed (but I do live on the Gulf Coast of FL...).

The main attraction for you, however, would be that great big "ballroom" of a saloon. I've seen one of these converted to a monstrously large galley situated aft of the dinette. The old galley on that boat was converted into an entertainment center, bookshelf, and storage area.

They have good headroom (6'3") and come rigged as a Ketch or a Cutter, with a few being built or modified as Cutter Ketches.

The prices are generally reasonable, from $10k-$40k

Do not confuse this with the later-model Seafarer 37! That boat is touted to be designed as a world cruiser but I believe it was more lightly built due to the rising costs of resins in the 80s.

[Coyote]

Oh, my! A three year old thread comes back to life. This is kinda fun.

[Nusailor]

Originally Posted by atavist

As I continue my boat search I find it amazing how many "cruisers" are in no way layed out for live-aboard... at least not by my standards.

What am I looking for? The first thing that comes to mind is galley space... most modern yacht's have galleys that are nearly nonexistant, tiny sinks, 2 burner stoves, negligible counter space... I can see why this would be the case in coastal cruising/day sailing boats but to me the galley is one of the most imporant parts of the boat, I want a double sink, 4 burners, and as much counterspace as possible with lots of under counter storage... sure this looses you a birth but as I plan to live-aboard I don't plan to have that many visitors and will probably spend a lot of time in the galley grinding wheat berries, watering my bean-sprouts, and of course cooking.

Next on my list of complaints is the navigation stations... most of them are nearly nonexistant as well, you have to either sacrifice counter space or cover your burners and then you are left standing in the middle of the salon/galley or on some uncomfortable little fold out seat, still in everyone elses way. You see a few with comfortable navigation stations but they are rare and still lack galley space.... and then there is the issue of aft cabins... there are plenty of littlish (<35ft) boats with aft cabins... but for some reason they never have any of the above discussed features... ... What is up with this?? to me the perfect boat would have two double births, a big galley and a comfortable nav station... yet it seams if a boat has one it lacks the others, for no apparent reason...

So to get to the point.... for those of you who already live-aboard, or have or will, what do you find to be the design features that make a boat live-aboardable??? What kind of boat do you have? What do you find to be it's shortcomings in this area? What strengths? Do you know any boats that meet the above criterion??

J

Atavist, you want a Catamaran!

[redbopeep]

Originally Posted by Coyote

Oh, my! A three year old thread comes back to life. This is kinda fun.

Yes, well I brought this one--and a few others--back to life because I think they're worthwhile.

Atavist has been through one boat now and is considering his future options. I'm really glad to see that he's moving on with new ideas for his next sailing adventures.

The thread is still good because getting into all the issues of what makes one galley (or boat) livable is so individual for each of us.

How's life going for you Coyote? Are you in the SF Bay area right now?

Fair winds,

[Coyote]

I am still in SF Bay and life is getting better each month. I am also starting to think about a new boat in the next couple years, so I read all this avidly. The Sabre was (and still is) a GREAT first boat and perfect for a single man, but I have a son now and I want more of everything.

The alcohol stove works for me, but I would really prefer propane. A dedicated stateroom would be a nice luxury. I now live on 30 gallons of water and do OK, but would love to have more. (Well, that's better than my kayak which held 8 gallons.) A real shower would be nice - especially if I had some hot water once in a while.

I will say (bragging a bit here) that the Sabre 30 has a more usable galley than any boat I have been on under 40 feet. I've served dinner for 8 aboard a couple times.

I saw you were here for a while and I spent a bit of time on Google Maps looking at where you dropped your hook.

There are still certainly many places around here for me to go for a long time.

Originally Posted by redbopeep

Yes, well I brought this one--and a few others--back to life because I think they're worthwhile.

Atavist has been through one boat now and is considering his future options. I'm really glad to see that he's moving on with new ideas for his next sailing adventures.

The thread is still good because getting into all the issues of what makes one galley (or boat) livable is so individual for each of us.

How's life going for you Coyote? Are you in the SF Bay area right now?

Fair winds,

[redbopeep]

I'm so glad to hear that your galley suits you for entertaining. Most people prefer propane. I prefer not to have it aboard. Different strokes for different folks.

And, the shower thing--we still either heat water on the stovetop and pour it in our solar shower bag, or let it sit in the sun. Typically it seems we want to shower late enough in the evening that the "solar" warmth is gone from the bag, thus we end up heating water for the shower if we want it hot. Our forecastle (a room all the way forward where the anchor locker, extra anchors, lines and such live) is spacious and is set up as a wet room with its own shower floor and two drains pumped outside. We use it as a very nice "shower room" but must hang the solar shower up since no real plumbing there for a shower. It works but is a multi-step process to get hot water in the shower.

A dedicated stateroom. Yes, we have one--but don't really use it anymore. It has a double bed and we end up doing "projects" on the bed or staging things for projects there so it's always full of stuff. We end up sleeping in the (double bed) pilot-style berth that is accessed by hinging up a seat in the charthouse. The bed goes under the seat outboard under the side deck, and under the bridgedeck (feet). No privacy, but we don't have to make the bed in the morning--we just put the seat back over it! That part is very nice.

.

The places in the SF Bay area we liked most--

1. Drakes Bay (outside the Bay, but close) anchoring

2. Sailing around the Farallon Islands (no anchoring but really nice)

3. Belvedere Cove (best views in the Bay) SFYC stay

4. The Potato Slough anchoring

5. The Montezuma Slough anchoring

Places that we ended up a lot for logistics reasons, nice people or yacht club or right distance from other things and that were sort of cool for some reason or another--

1. Mare Island Straight anchoring. Gotta be amazed by that current in the Napa River. Logistically good--showers and such at the Vallejo Yacht Club, walking distance to a post office and a ferry to San Francisco.

2. China Camp anchoring. Pretty and a good "between" place.

3. Paradise Cove anchoring. same as 2.

4. Brisbane Marina. They were clean, inexpensive, and very nice. The let us keep a car in the lot off and on for months even though we only stayed there about 1x/month for a few days each time to provision and go visit relatives in nearby Mountain View.

A place I could live aboard for a long time with a smile on my face-- Half Moon Bay at anchor. The people are nice, the harbor anchoring field protected, I love fog (gotta to live there!) and all the seals, birds, and fish. Similarly, I could spend a lifetime exploring the Sacramento Delta.

Places where we thought we'd go and did not because we had no time included Sausalito (we went on a friend's boat, though) and Clipper Cove.

[Coyote]

Thanks for the list. I love Clipper Cove. Quiet, protected, easy. Usually pretty lonely. Within dinghy distance of food and beer if that's what you want.

I like HMB, too. If you are going back past ever, check out Moss Landing.

Originally Posted by redbopeep

The places in the SF Bay area we liked most--

1. Drakes Bay (outside the Bay, but close) anchoring

2. Sailing around the Farallon Islands (no anchoring but really nice)

3. Belvedere Cove (best views in the Bay) SFYC stay

4. The Potato Slough anchoring

5. The Montezuma Slough anchoring

Places that we ended up a lot for logistics reasons, nice people or yacht club or right distance from other things and that were sort of cool for some reason or another--

1. Mare Island Straight anchoring. Gotta be amazed by that current in the Napa River. Logistically good--showers and such at the Vallejo Yacht Club, walking distance to a post office and a ferry to San Francisco.

2. China Camp anchoring. Pretty and a good "between" place.

3. Paradise Cove anchoring. same as 2.

4. Brisbane Marina. They were clean, inexpensive, and very nice. The let us keep a car in the lot off and on for months even though we only stayed there about 1x/month for a few days each time to provision and go visit relatives in nearby Mountain View.

A place I could live aboard for a long time with a smile on my face-- Half Moon Bay at anchor. The people are nice, the harbor anchoring field protected, I love fog (gotta to live there!) and all the seals, birds, and fish. Similarly, I could spend a lifetime exploring the Sacramento Delta.

Places where we thought we'd go and did not because we had no time included Sausalito (we went on a friend's boat, though) and Clipper Cove.