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Old 11-09-2008, 03:57 PM   #21
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there is a well followed book that states "An eye for an eye"
By way of contradiction, that self same book states "Thou shallt not kill". Nowhere, as far as I know, in that book is there a deregation from that rule which would permit an "official" killing.

Your mention of Dr. Vervoed reminds me of an interesting issue which has, thus far, been lacking from this debate. Six years prior to his murder there was an attempt made on his life by a David Pratt who shot Vervoed twice in the face, at close range, with a .22 pistol. Two months after the shooting Vervoed was back in Parliament. Pratt was incarcerated "at the Governor General's pleasure" in Pretoria Central Prison. He was eventually declared mentally disordered and epileptic and later hanged himself at Bloemfontain Mental Hospital.

Pratt, who was a well respected farmer and member of the Witwatersrand Agricultural Society, was a sick man and yet the state did nothing to help him as far as I can make out and, I wonder, how did he manage to hang himself in a mental hospital? Vervoed was, in my opinion, the worst PM South Africa ever had. The man had studied in Hamburg and Berlin in Hitler's Germany and obviously was a supporter of Hitler. He was, as editor of Die Transvaaler, responsible for making that paper nothing more than a propoganda sheet for naziism. He was also ex-Minister for Native Affairs and one of the fathers of the Apartheid system. Under such a regime I strongly suspect that Pratt was at least helped in his suicide.

On 6th September 1966 Vervoed was murdered in Parliament by one Dimitri Tsafendas, a parliamentary messenger, who stabbed Vervoed four times. On arrival in Groote Schuur Hospital Vervoed was declared dead. On 17 October 1966, a summary trial for Tsafendas began. It ended three days later, with the declaration by Justice Beyers that Tsafendas was 'insane and unfit to stand trial'. Beyers ordered that Tsafendas 'be kept in a place of safety where he will be away from society' and he too was confined to Pretoria Central Prison. Tsafendos also had a long history of mental illness. He had been diagnosed as suffering from paranoid schizophrenia.

In my opinion, if anyone did deserve what he got it was Vervoed.

I am sure many a person suffering from mental dissorders has been executed for murder, particularly in times before our knowledge of mental illnesses was as great as it is now. Just another reason why we should not have the death penalty.

Aye // Stephen
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Old 11-10-2008, 01:27 PM   #22
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By way of contradiction, that self same book states "Thou shallt not kill". Nowhere, as far as I know, in that book is there a deregation from that rule which would permit an "official" killing.
I cant argue that, but that book is full of contradictions, or should we say interpretations, so it can be made to mean pretty much what you want, which is why is it such a good book and caters to all

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Your mention of Dr. Vervoed reminds me of an interesting issue which has, thus far, been lacking from this debate. Six years prior to his murder there was an attempt made on his life by a David Pratt who shot Vervoed twice in the face, at close range, with a .22 pistol. Two months after the shooting Vervoed was back in Parliament. Pratt was incarcerated "at the Governor General's pleasure" in Pretoria Central Prison. He was eventually declared mentally disordered and epileptic and later hanged himself at Bloemfontein Mental Hospital.

In my opinion, if anyone did deserve what he got it was Vervoed.
I did not really know much about Verwoed, as I was very young when he died (born 1955) but my what I have read about him, I too agree that he got what he deserved, but isnt that the jist of this discussion, though he was on the other side of the coin. Put to death just not state assisted.

What is REALLY interesting to me that in both people that attempted to kill Verwoed were found mentally disordered, maybe the governement could just not believe that sane people would want to kill such a fine man.

and YES, I too believe that David Pratts suicide was shall we say, State assisted, just like those guys that fall off the chair during police interviews and have 7 broken ribs. What did surprise me though is that Tsaphendas lived until 1999. I figured he would be bumped off.

BTW: OJ simpsons appeal was denied on Friday, he is now filing an appeal with the Nevada superior court while sentencing is sometime early December.
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Old 11-10-2008, 02:49 PM   #23
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What is REALLY interesting to me that in both people that attempted to kill Verwoed were found mentally disordered, maybe the governement could just not believe that sane people would want to kill such a fine man.
I had to laugh at that. Maybe you are right there.

I digress a little but Tsaphendas is interesting as he was a bit of an anomoly in Apartheid South Africa. He was born in Mozambique, the son of a Greek father and a black mother. Victimised at school for his mixed blood (he was given the nickname "blackie"), he left Mozambique to sail the world as a merchant seaman. At times he seems to have been little more than an international crazy tramp, bouncing from asylum to asylum.

He returned to South Africa in 1964, fluent in eight languages, and somehow, despite his mixed parentage, status as an illegal immigrant and history of mental instability, secured a post in the whites-only parliament as a messenger, exploiting his privileged position to stab the prime minister to death.

By the time he assassinated Verwoerd, Tsafendas was a seriously unbalanced man. He had been raging publicly for years against apartheid's chief architect. Tsafendas yearned, he told friends, for a ''rainbow nation.'' He abhorred the laws that forbade sex across the colour bar. A few weeks before stabbing Verwoerd, Tsafendas had filed to be reclassified from white to coloured, hoping to live legally with the mixed-race woman he loved. How on Earth the security services missed that obvious threat to state security we will never know. Of course, it was pre-BOSS.

Tsafendas was at first given a cell on death row in Pretoria Central Prison, next to the room in which men were hanged, sometimes several at a time. After he had been certified as insane, which anyone would become living next to the death cell, he was, I believe, incarcerated at Weskoppies, a Pretoria psychiatric hospital. He remained there for nearly thirty years

Tsaphendas died in October 1999 at the age of 81, still incarcerated.

All this really serves to indicate that the issue is not black and white or, to avoid confusion with the apartheid issue I should perhaps say not completely right or completely wrong. Verwoerd got what he deserved, it is just that no man has the right to take the life of another, whereas Pratt and Tsafendas were sick people and were ill treated by the state.

Aye // Stephen
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Old 11-10-2008, 04:53 PM   #24
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Tsafendas yearned, he told friends, for a ''rainbow nation.'' He abhorred the laws that forbade sex across the colour bar. A few weeks before stabbing Verwoerd, Tsafendas had filed to be reclassified from white to coloured, hoping to live legally with the mixed-race woman he loved.

Aye // Stephen
My thought about Tsafendas is, as crazy as he came across, he was one of the fathers of the anti-apartheid movement, though he may not be recognized as such. Eliminating Verwoed was a huge step forward, could you imagine where South Africa could have gone with an extended rule by a figure like Verwoed

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Old 11-10-2008, 05:12 PM   #25
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Had South Africa had a more moderate figure at the helm and had MacMillan been more reasonable in his "Winds of Change" policy then South Africa could have gone down a totally different route, stayed within the Commonwealth to the benefit of everyone and had today, perhaps, been a little lesss polorised and crime free.

Having said that, I still love the place and intend to go back next year but just for a visit.

Aye // Stephen
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Old 11-10-2008, 05:45 PM   #26
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Had South Africa had a more moderate figure at the helm and had MacMillan been mopre reasonable in his "Winds of Change" policy then South Africa could have gone down a totally different route, stayed within the Commonwealth to the benefit of everyone and had today, perhaps, been a little less polarised and crime free.

Having said that, I still love the place and intend to go back next year but just for a visit.

Aye // Stephen
I go back regularly and love the place. I thought that it would get bad, but it is all relative, there are bad places in every city in the world. You just have to know where to go and when, or more importantly where not to go and when not to go.

The People there for the most part are all gracious no matter what the ethnicity
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Old 11-10-2008, 06:04 PM   #27
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I go back regularly and love the place. I thought that it would get bad, but it is all relative, there are bad places in every city in the world. You just have to know where to go and when, or more importantly where not to go and when not to go.

The People there for the most part are all gracious no matter what the ethnicity
Very, very true!
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Old 04-26-2009, 09:52 AM   #28
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Ah yes. Capital punishment;

You have the capital ------ or you suffer the punishment.
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Old 04-28-2009, 07:03 PM   #29
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I spent 6 weeks in South Africa in May 2002. I loved it. The people, the physical beauty, etc. Hope to get back.
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