Engine Prices

[flounder]

I am looking for my first boat and as you are all aware they come in all kinds of conditions. My goal here is to start a thread of what an overhaul or replacement has cost you or has been quoted. What I am requesting is the engine make and model, the HP, time and place and cost for removal and replacement if that can be separated from the repair price. Given enough input we can have a general consensus for the cost for specific models. What I'd really like to do is have these prepared as a list for easy reference. I am only looking for total engine replacement or overhaul at this time. As much as possible I'd like to weed out incidental repairs to equipment attached to the engine except as necessary to reinstall it. Also it seems to me that 4000 hours on an engine is near the limit. Am I correct in expecting expensive repairs soon? BOB

[JeanneP]

See Life Expectancy of the Marine Engine

A diesel engine can go 8,000 hours without the worry of a major overhaul. However, only information on the maintenance and care of a specific engine can give you the guidance you need to tell if this is a 4,000-hour life engine or a 10,000 hour life engine. So many variables including the knowledge and diligence of the engine's owner.

Our experience is fairly typical. We have two Yanmar 75-hp diesel engines on our power catamaran. We bought the boat from a charter company after it had been in charter for a year. Although the charter company swore that proper maintenance procedures were followed, we don't believe them due to problems that were finally solved more than a year after we had bought the boat, too late to make waves with the seller. These problems, in the end, weren't serious enough to significantly affect the life of the engine, but had they continued for several years they might have. On the other hand, had one of the problems surfaced during our sea trial of the boat we could probably have bought the boat at a significantly reduced price. Who knows? Some POs (Previous Owners) are models of responsible ownership. Others are (in the vernacular) jerks. I have yet to be able to tell the difference after even several casual meetings. Those on their best behavior while trying to sell their boat will probably always come across as responsible. Jerks are chameleons.

Find a boat, find a mechanic who can do the appropriate tests for you, and let him tell you if the engine in the boat you are seeking to buy is good or bad. (hint: rust on the engine is not a good thing.) For a sailboat, I would personally let the engine be the last thing on my mind.

IMHO

J

[redbopeep]

Flounder,

What kind of engine do you have? How many hours does it have? What sorts of things have you done to extend its life? More information about your particular situation would help us to help you with your question.

Good luck

[MMNETSEA]

As you do not know what boat you hope to acquire, apparently you are also aware that there literally thousands of different types of boats. Therefore to even attempt to provide 'Chapter and Verse' answers to your questions on engines would be pointless. Here is list of engines that are found in boats, from just one single manufacturer, select one from the list and then do some research as to the cost of purchasing and installing a new one, also research the cost of a total overhaul of that same engine.Prerkins_Engine_Number_Guide_English2.pdf

As there are thousands of different types of boats - equally there thousands of different types of engines to be found in those boats.

[flounder]

I originally posted the engine prices topic and would like to start a new thread with new formulation for determining engine overhauling or replacement. I'm new and several of the prior posters have responded to my previous questions but by now they might have figured out that I'm a numbers guy. I'm shopping for my first cruiser and am trying to develop a range of pricing for various major systems. I feel we are making some headway on the sail pricing thread and would now like to start this. I realize there are 1000s of designs from the many manufacturers but I also know that seasoned sailors or marine professionals are able to provide a quick guess on an engine repair and might not be too far off just as in any line of work or occupation. They've seen it and been there and have done that and gotten the bill for it or they know of friends or associates that have. What I'm trying to do is apply a multiplier to the horsepower rating and use this as a guess for an engine overhaul down the road. I have searched the internet and seen re-manufactured engines for about $90 to $100 per horsepower. It seems some of the smaller engines might be a little more and the bigger ones a little less. The part that I'm missing is the cost of the labor which is mostly the removal and replacement unless they overhaul it on site. Lets try to weed out systems that might be attached to the engines as much as possible and other lesser repairs to the engine. So if you have overhauled or replaced your engine lately could you please post the facts here. Or if you already have a figure (answer) for my multiplier please post it. We will try to factor in a value for the difference for location and currency rates if any. Remember this is only a guesstimate. It doesn't have to be exact. BOB

[jerjacko]

Why do you care? Are you planning on buying a boat that needs a major engine overhaul? If so, tell us about that engine. Where is it? What make, model, HP, etc. Otherwise, why do you want to go through this exercise?

I think you're spinning your wheels, and ours. It might help if we knew where you were located, what boat you have or are planning to buy, and a lot more about your own experience and knowledge. Do you have any experience with marine engines? With any kind of diesel engine?

Tell us more and give us enough information to help you.

[flounder]

As I said in my original post I am looking for my first cruiser and trying to develop a financial grasp for repairs that may come up. If you've shopped for a boat then you know that conditions are all over the map especially with charters. With some engine hours over 5000 one could expect to have a significant repair bill before too long so if I knew that engine 'A' will cost me this much in the not too distant future then I could use that in evaluating one boat over another. For instance there is a cat available that has huge engines compared to all the other of it's size. The problem is that hour meter. This got me wondering if an overhaul would be $50 or $100,000. I don't want to call cross country a marine mechanic and ask him his price to do this... yet. And living in Montana the very real possibility is that sometime this summer my broker and I will write up a contract for a boat which I have not yet to decide on that could be anywhere in the world and will be subject to my (initial) inspection and the survey, sea trial, etc. Of course I'm not looking for a boat to overhaul and don't want one that I have to turn wrenches on any more than I have to. I've owned 2 diesel trucks and and have done minor repairs to them and some heavy equipment but my limited experience with diesel engines is not relevant to the original thread. The question is, "Is there a formula based on horsepower that one can use for the complete repair of a boat motor including removal and re installation? So, have you had a motor rebuilt or replaced professionally or do you know of someone who has? What was the engine, it's HP rating and what did it cost? I'm just looking for a range not an exact number. After all knowledge is power. Thank you BOB

PS I know it's off topic but I'd also like to develop a similar formula on a genset based on kilowatt hours. Please don't kill me. It's like a disease. I can't help it.

[MMNETSEA]

Originally Posted by flounder

The question is, "Is there a formula based on horsepower that one can use for the complete repair of a boat motor including removal and re installation?

THERE IS NO FORMULA.

So, have you had a motor rebuilt or replaced professionally

or do you know of someone who has?

YES

What was the engine,

ISUZU 4JB1

it's HP rating

67 at 3000 RPM

and what did it cost? I'm just looking for a range not an exact number.

$23,000 - $25,000 AUD.

------------------------------

PS I know it's off topic but I'd also like to develop a similar formula on a genset based on kilowatt hours. Please don't kill me.

It's like a disease. I can't help it.

SEE YOUR DOCTOR

Flounder, maybe this is the moment to advise that your questions are analogous to that other question "How long is a piece of string" a pointless exercise in futility.

Until you have decided on the type, size, age and your budget for the boat - the questions are of little or no value. Do you really expect others to provide all the answers, when it apparent that you have no idea what sort of boat you are looking for. Without a plan (even a bad plan is better than no plan!)

[redbopeep]

Originally Posted by flounder

As I said in my original post I am looking for my first cruiser and trying to develop a financial grasp for repairs that may come up. If you've shopped for a boat then you know that conditions are all over the map especially with charters. With some engine hours over 5000 one could expect to have a significant repair bill before too long so if I knew that engine 'A' will cost me this much in the not too distant future then I could use that in evaluating one boat over another. For instance there is a cat available that has huge engines compared to all the other of it's size. The problem is that hour meter. This got me wondering if an overhaul would be $50 or $100,000. I don't want to call cross country a marine mechanic and ask him his price to do this... yet. And living in Montana the very real possibility is that sometime this summer my broker and I will write up a contract for a boat which I have not yet to decide on that could be anywhere in the world and will be subject to my (initial) inspection and the survey, sea trial, etc. Of course I'm not looking for a boat to overhaul and don't want one that I have to turn wrenches on any more than I have to. I've owned 2 diesel trucks and and have done minor repairs to them and some heavy equipment but my limited experience with diesel engines is not relevant to the original thread. The question is, "Is there a formula based on horsepower that one can use for the complete repair of a boat motor including removal and re installation? So, have you had a motor rebuilt or replaced professionally or do you know of someone who has? What was the engine, it's HP rating and what did it cost? I'm just looking for a range not an exact number. After all knowledge is power. Thank you BOB

PS I know it's off topic but I'd also like to develop a similar formula on a genset based on kilowatt hours. Please don't kill me. It's like a disease. I can't help it.

These questions are becoming a little frustrating for all of us--mainly because we like to help people and typically the folks who come along in need of help have a concrete and real situation which requires a solution rather than posing broad and general questions regarding all matters great and small related to cruising.

So you're a numbers person--then you should quickly recognize the fact that with numbers and formula the term "garbage in, garbage out" applies. Quantitative fields of study like engineering (ah, I am an engineer, btw) and finance (ah, I also have an MBA...) use case studies for good reason. It is easiest for the student to grasp the principles by working through examples and cases. Most engineers and MBA -types do know where and how to obtain information required to develop a pricing, attribute, or value model. While the Cruiser Log is full of knowledgeable and helpful folks, you probably need to start digging into all the resources available to you to figure this sort of thing out for yourself.

A "case study" might be for you to select a boat of interest, identify the type of engine and age/hours upon it. Then, find several shops which work on such engines as well as online resources for rebuilt engines. Price the rebuilt engines. Call the shops with a few strategic questions--not a barrage of questions or shot gun approach of course. Price similarly sized and rated NEW engines for comparison. Look on Craigs List nationwide (do a few targeted google searches with site:craigslist.org for example...) and learn what parts, used engines, etc might come up. Ah, all this takes time but you'll soon know a lot about the case study engine.

There is NOTHING wrong with asking (and paying) a marine surveyor to investigate a boat of interest to you. It might cost you $100 to $300 for an "in the water" survey with a good smattering of advice about major repairs needed and cost. You may later have a full survey on the same boat if it turns out to be the boat you're planning to buy. When in search of a boat, we looked all around the USA, Canada, UK, and Europe. We had a local surveyor look at each boat of interest BEFORE we took the time to visit the boat ourselves. The money was well spent even though we did pay for these services for boats that we did not purchase and did not visit. That's the point! Don't waste your time and money with visiting a boat that you will not purchase because it is NOT the right price for the condition and repairs required.

In a different post, I suggested to you that you find a yacht broker to work with. This can be very helpful to you. Further I suggested that you visit boat shows via vacation time, etc. When we were in search of a boat, though we lived in Washington, DC, I worked with a reputable yacht broker in Maine to locate "candidate" boats that he thought might work for us. As it turned out, we purchased a boat that was advertised via thelog.com and a private sale which didn't require the broker. But, it was very good for me to work with this broker. Such a relationship might be helpful to you as well. There's nothing unique about living in one part of the USA and considering boats all over the country or world-wide. That's fairly normal.

There is nothing wrong with developing a variety of benefit/cost models for attributes of interest to you. But, you should be able to do this simply by researching the item of interest through product and service sources (as suggested above with a sample engine or via list prices on things like gen-sets) and building your own model. If you do not work in a quantitative field and do not have the appropriate training to undertake development of such models, I would heartily encourage you to take some classes at any nearby educational institution to help you perform your desired analysis. Operations research, economics, industrial engineering, and so forth are all fields rich in the type of analysis which you are very interested in performing.

You will never be able to completely remove the financial risk from your purchase but certainly understanding the risks you are taking is important.

Best of luck in your search for the right boat,

PS, I do suggest that you pick up Lin and Larry Pardey's The Cost Conscious Cruiser as well as Nigel Caulder's Cruising Handbook as the Pardey's have a very quantitative approach to many things and Nigel is very thorough in explaining what is important and why it is so in a cruising vessel.

[JeanneP]

I think that this might be the correct forum for your quest for information on engines: Marine Engine and Outboard forum

[Weto]

WOW ! That was painful to read.