Changing Over To A Square Topped Sail

[flounder]

I'm a newbie and am giving myself an education. I've been reading about the advantages of square topped sails and this seems to me a good way to get more power. I understand there would have to be a determination on the boat's and rigs ability to handle this. Assuming it was feasible is this something that could be done to pep up the action. I have seen these sails with battens or an upper boom that keeps it square. So what's that piece called? Anybody have any experience on retrofitting to a square rig and how did it work out? Aside from that I was just wondering if there was some sort of formula or guideline on a new sail purchase. If you knew the area of your sail then could you guesstimate the cost of a replacement sale for the different fabrics. Just a rule of thumb. Thank you Bob

[MMNETSEA]

Originally Posted by flounder

I'm a newbie and am giving myself an education. Assuming it was feasible is this something that could be done to pep up the action. I have seen these sails with battens or an upper boom that keeps it square. So what's that piece called? Anybody have any experience on retrofitting to a square rig and how did it work out? Aside from that I was just wondering if there was some sort of formula or guideline on a new sail purchase. If you knew the area of your sail then could you guesstimate the cost of a replacement sale for the different fabrics. Just a rule of thumb. Thank you Bob

Bob,

Unfortunately there are so many variables in your questions that without a specific sailboat with a specific rig one cannot answer these. In any event your best bet in all probability is to visit a sailmaker's loft where they employ professional sail designers who might enjoy an exercise in quoting a price for a specific retrofitting.

There are sails on some of the present day racing multihulls that cost more than a million dollars just for a 1 single sail.

May I suggest that an in-depth read of research into different sail characteristics as to be found in the publications of the AYRS - CLICK HERE

[flounder]

I realize my question on square top sail was somewhat esoteric. However I have read quite a few articles on new applications including what was listed in this forum. I was just wondering if anyone here had retrofitted one. And what is that upper spar called, dang it?

I know I'm new and don't know shinola but my question about sail cost for square ft or meter is relevant. I'm sure with your experience you can look at a boat and fire off a number for a replacement sail and be within 10 or 20%. I am in the market for a boat and will be cruising by this fall. Numerous boats that are available state or hint that they will need new sails soon. So it would be nice if I could plug in a number on top of the advertised price and say for this sail it would be this much or this much with premium fabric. I don't want to waste sailmakers time giving me quotes on boats that I'm window shopping. Likewise I might not even want to bother with an offer if I know that a boat might need a $100,000 in sails. When I am ready to start seriously considering making an offer I want all the data in front of me. Then I'll talk to the sailmaker. So lets take a popular boat like a Lagoon 50 or similar Benateau and figure out the price of an average main sail (or other sail) and we could also get a price for an upgraded version. Could we not extrapolate those prices and use it as a guide for sail replacement for larger and smaller boats. Or better yet just list here the sail that you purchased and the details such as boat, size, fabric, type, etc. I know there are a host of variables but we don't need to make it harder than it is. We are just looking for averages. If we could get enough listings then newbies like me would have a general guide to go by and stop asking these simple questions. And really, telling me that some of the racing multihulls have a million dollar sail is totally irrelevant. Even I know that they have huge masts with giant sails. The Americas Cup winner was rumored to cost 200 million to build and it had the option of 2 masts with the smaller being 185'. The wing mast is 220' and the 7000 sq. ft. main sail has an "aeronautical film over carbon fiber". Is this the biggest most expensive sail ever on the most expensive sailboat ever and how could this possibly be relevant to my question at hand? Thank you, Bob

Learning more by the minute

Ski powder and may the wind be at your back

[JeanneP]

You are asking a difficult question with what I believe to be little possibility of obtaining useful answers. You won't find that a 40' monohull will have a similar size main as a 40' multihull, and whatever boat you are looking at, if you don't have information on a sail that exactly matches that make and model, you could have wildly different real-world price estimates.

I say this because two boats of the same size can have radically different sail plans. The boat could be a fractional rig with the mainsail much larger than another boat of the same size with a different rig. There are sloops, ketches, cutters, all with different sail profiles.

Instead, I checked the internet and found a few useful links to help you in your search. First, a link on Sail Measurement

Secondly, a link to a supplier of new and used sails with a search feature for their sail inventory, using sail measurements Search new/used sail inventory

I have no experience with either of the companies who own these websites and thus cannot recommend their products.

I found a vendor of new and used sails, but could not obtain any information about specific boat models' sails from the site (every one of the 10 or 15 boat models I searched on came back with "no information", frustrating enough that I felt it was not worth linking to it.

We have had a favorable experience with Rolly Tasker sails in Phuket, Thailand, but I don't know how helpful his website would be for you, but it offers some help to educate you wrt sails. Rolly Tasker Sails

Keep in mind that you are better off using new sails as a benchmark, since used sails can vary widely in condition and value.

Fair winds,

Jeanne

[flounder]

I still believe my point is valid. I have absolutely no idea what a sail costs period. Like for instance are bigger sails more per sq. ft. than smaller sails. If I could get some data on new sail prices for different configurations and materials and applications then we could start to extrapolate data that would be relevant in guesstimating the cost of a new replacement sail. Please note that i did not ask for a comparison between different sizes or applications of sails and I never inquired about used sails. I firmly believe that a main sail for a cat and a main sail for a mono hull would be near the same price provided they were near the same size and constructed similarly using the same material and coming from the same loft. Sure there would be some differences but I wonder if the spread would even be 20%. I suspect less. And I'm aware of the high end lofts like North will probably be more than an independent. If you could send me some data on you recent new sail acquisition then we could get started. Once again I'm only looking for a range not an exact number. Thanx again BOB

[redbopeep]

Flounder,

If you're interested in basic information about sail costs for your own existing boat, start out by taking the measurements as JeanneP suggests and then you can send an inquiry to several sailmakers which should give you a range of responses and pricing.

If you're wanting to make sure that you're asking sailmakers the right questions and that you're spec'ing out your sail properly, get yourself a copy of The Sailmakers' Apprentice and read about how sails are made, how to spec a sail, all the materials and types of sails, battens, roach, attachment systems and so forth.

The old fashioned "square top" sails are gaff rigged. The top spar being called the gaff. The new boats which are by-and-large racing boats with a batten across the top...don't know what they're called but it looks to be the new-and-updated version of a gaff rigged boat. Most boats with excessive roach OR a gaff rig do not have a fixed backstay and other aspects of the rig would require changing as well. Your own boat is unlikely to be a good candidate for this type of thing, but if you're interested in learning more about sail shape, roach, gaffs, and so forth, the Sailmakers' Apprentice is a good place to learn a few things.

Cost of new sails for a cruising boat ranges SO MUCH that it is totally pointless to discuss it unless one is discussing a particular sail. For a given mainsail it can range from hundreds to tens of thousands of dollars all depending on the performance expected and exotic nature of the sail material and design.

When you get your rig measured out, you'll be able to get a lot of good input from sailmakers and purveyors of sails--both new and used.

Fair winds,

[saxon]

Hello bob, As Redbopeep pointed out, 'the top batten or spar' I think you called it is the "Gaff" on some vessels, but there are many others too which have 'square topped sails,' Luggers for example. If you refer to a vessel as 'square rigged then people may confuse that as meaning something like a grain clipper which carried most of her sails on 'yards' or spars rigged across or square on her masts.

The reason I stick my oar in is because I sailed my Gaff cutter for 9 years. I can't talk about comparative costs of sails, or alteration of rigs etc: only about the practical side of sailing her. It's a pretty rig to look at. There's more running rigging to cope with, peak and throat halyards, topping lifts and running backstays too, so not quite so easy to handle as a Bermudan rigged vessel, but like everything else once you get used to it, no problem.

Downwind or on any point of sailing with the wind abaft the beam she went like a train...The big gaff mainsail really worked well. The gaff rig is usually set on a shorter mast which because of the difference in the sails "Centre of effort" generally..not always ..allows more sail to be carried than with a triangular sail when the wind gets up. However, I did find that going to windward she would not sail as close to the wind as a Bermudan rigged vessel, so tacking to windward could be a slow process.

A few websites have been pointed out where there's lot's of information about gaff rig, so don't ask a sailmaker for a quote on a 4o foot " square rigger"

will you? Because his eyes will light with Dollar signs and he'll start going on about Royals, T'gallants, stun'sls and thinking he's set for a fortune from you.

Regards Saxon.

[JeanneP]

Bob, I'm sorry, but since you don't own a boat yet, nor seem to have a specific model boat in mind, what you are proposing is a futile exercise.

I understand that you said nothing about used sails, and the link I provided offers searches on both new and used sails. However, even the price of a used sail that meets your (presently undecided) boat's dimensions would give you some idea of the costs of sails.

For example, our Jeanneau Sun Fizz came with 3 mainsails. To replace the original sail, new, would cost approximately $2,000 more than for most other Jeanneau Sun Fizzes because our mainmast was approximately 8 or ten feet higher than the standard rig for our boat. Even after we cut 8 feet off the mast, the mast was still taller than our friend's same-length but different make sailboat. One of the mainsails was the size of the standard-rig mainsail, but was a storm main with much beefier fabric and stitching, etc. And the third mainsail was very expensive. The averaqe cruising sailor with a sailboat of the same length as our boat could/would have a sail significantly smaller than ours, and thus significantly cheaper.

Your only option is to go to a specific boat's web site, look up the specs. for that boat's sails, then go to the links I provided (or another site you might find) to plug in the numbers to get a quote.

Nothing else is going to bring you within 25% of the estimated cost of a new sail for a boat you, or anyone else, might be considering.

An additional consideration which I hope MMNETSEA might be able to confirm, is that in general, a catamaran's mainsail for, say, a 40' cat, would be significantly more expensive (read much different size/shape, etc.) than a mainsail for a 40' monohull. And its genoa/jib might be significantly less expensive.

Sailboats just don't come with off-the shelf ready-made sized sails.

[redbopeep]

Flounder, I didn't realize you don't have a boat that you're re-fitting. I Sorry.

You've asked several questions regarding costs and clearly we're all interested in our budget and what we can afford to get into when we begin the search for a boat. Everyone has to have a starting place.

You might talk with a reputable yacht broker about your sailing goals and learn what he/she has to say about budget and what is available. Go to the large boat shows--you're not in an area with such shows, then make it a vacation to visit a major boat show or two or three in the near future. Learn what new boat parts cost there. Learn what new boats cost at the shows as well. You'll be surprised by how costly it all is. You'll see $200K-$800K boats that you would have imagined were worth...$50K-$200K. Get your "dollar meter" reset to "boat dollar meter" and then realize that the 43 ft $250K boat has a suite of sails on it that may be identical to the sails that you'd need to put on a used (with lousy sails) 43 ft $30K boat.

When you see lots of $600K boats you begin to think that there are only $600K boats out there. Similarly, when you see lots of ads for what seem to be large and capable cruising boats for $30K, you get the impression that you can get what you want for a pittance. The realities are all over the place. I'm sitting at anchor with a number of cruising boats around me--I see a fellow who bought a 30 year old 27 ft boat for $2.5K, put $8K into it (including a new Rolly Tasker mainsail) and has a good boat for coastal cruising. Another fellow has a 48 ft boat Halberg Rassy that he purchased new for $750K. There's all sorts of boats, sails, motors, and prices too.

Have you looked at boats that interest you? Do you know what you're interested in doing?

[Louiesails]

Bob

You can get prices for very common boats you might want to sail or go cruising with at http://thesailwarehouse.com/cgi-bin/web_st...ml&cart_id= This will give you an idea of what sails for various boats cost from this particular relatively low end supplier cost. A Tartan 34 main, for example is $1200 to $1500 for full battens in dacron. A high end sail from one of the big sailmakers , North 3DL would be 2-4 times that cost, and for cruising have a very short life.

Most boats have ben designed with an appropriate amount of sail area, located in the appropriate place on the boat to balance and sail correctly. Adding a square top main is usually expensive and counterproductive because of the added area typically creates significant weather helm which slows the boat. In addition, you now need a flicker and high tech backstay allowing the backstay to be eased and lifted over the extra roach in the main. Additional skill is required to manage the extra complexity of each tack and jybe. Only under really special circumstances is it worth it.

We have a maximized main for our J27 racer. This is square topped with two battens on special cars to support the extra area on the masthead. We use it only for light air conditions due to the complexity, with a crew of 6 or 7. It cost three times what a normal sail would have been, not counting the rigging changes required for the backstay and runners.

You got excellent advice from the other posters previously and I hope the site I listed gives you and idea of what sails for various stock classes are available for. Better sails with higher tech fabrics will be more, Our J27 North DP fabric sail was over $4500, signficatly more than a 34 footer sail might be.

Best of luck and fair winds (and alternatively, knee deep powder)

Robert

Originally Posted by flounder

I'm a newbie and am giving myself an education. I've been reading about the advantages of square topped sails and this seems to me a good way to get more power. I understand there would have to be a determination on the boat's and rigs ability to handle this. Assuming it was feasible is this something that could be done to pep up the action. I have seen these sails with battens or an upper boom that keeps it square. So what's that piece called? Anybody have any experience on retrofitting to a square rig and how did it work out? Aside from that I was just wondering if there was some sort of formula or guideline on a new sail purchase. If you knew the area of your sail then could you guesstimate the cost of a replacement sale for the different fabrics. Just a rule of thumb. Thank you Bob

[flounder]

First of all let me say," Loiesails, you are the man". Pointing me to The Sailwarehouse provided me with some valuable information. By clicking on a Catalina 42 I came up with price spread of about $6 to $8 per sq. ft for the main. Just for grins I also checked a Manta 42 which had almost the same sail dimension as the Catalina. And came up with about $9.30 per ft which I attribute much of to the thicker cloth of 9.5 vs 8.5 for the Catalina. I imagine a custom sail would be more. Please note: to keep this topic simple lets just talk about a mainsail on a sloop style cruiser rig and keep the battens out of the discussion. I don't think I specified that earlier which led to some confusion. Also I didn't know that Dacron generally had a longer life than most of tech cloths. Thanx again Louie. And the quote about North Sails was helpful in establishing a price range for the high end fabrics with the high end lofts. I wonder if you could repost and tell me what your price per sq. ft. was on your racing sails and what they were made of and if they were a custom as opposed to the loft already having the pattern. Remember I am only trying to establish a price range for guesstimating the cost of replacement sails for the boat that I hope to purchase by fall. I still have a question about the cost per sq. ft. difference if any of a larger sail from a smaller sail considering they were essentially equal in fabric, loft, design etc. Do you think they would be equal? If anyone has good idea of price per sq.ft. for a basic sail in Dacron versus a more expensive type I'd really like you to post that. Just shoot from the hip. I won't hold it against you. If I estimated a new main sail for a cruiser in Dacron at $10 to $15 range per sq. ft. and a Spectra in the $25 to $30 range would I be that far off? And to all that responded on the original square topped question I thank you. There was a thread with pics on a new production boat in this forum that had a square topped rig with battens instead of a gaff but now I've lost it in cyberspace. I knew what a gaff was however I had never seen it horizontal before and didn't know it would still be called a gaff so thanks for clearing that up. I had also seen a topic somewhere on the web with a kinda goofy looking square topped rig with that gaff way up there and was just wondering if that has ever been solidly attached to a rotating mast so it would all move along somewhat evenly without the use of so much rigging. Just hypothetical, mind you. I'm still talking about a sloop style rig so the triangular shape has now become a trapezoid. We'll leave the square rigs for another day. Thanks all BOB

Did you here about the dyslexic, insomniac, atheist?

He stays up all night wondering if there is a dog.

[Louiesails]

Bob,

Sails are an interesting item these days, as your question about a loft having a pattern or not, with most lofts doing computer layout and cutting (many now in China, even the big name brands) do not make a significant difference in cost, thus having the measurements of the rig you are interested in. Most classes have the dims, I, J, etc, which allows you to make estimates for cost reasonably. That said, there is a curve for cost, small costs a lot, relatively, because of the need to make 3 corners with built up reinforcing and webbing and/or grommets, compared to a small amount of fabric, no mater what kind you select. Medium sized sails are the 'sweet spot' for pricing, as the corners material and labor becomes a smaller portion of the overall material required, and then large sails go up again as ther are few lofts that have the large floor space, sewing machines that will sew through 7-12 layers of material that basically folds up like sheet metal, but holds its shape well under huge loads. Thus your graph would be nearly U shaped if done dollars per sq ft.

Material also affects cost, and life. Take racing sails out of the picture, as our kevlar, spectra, 3DL, carbon sails last competitively for about 200 tacks and then shrink and come apart. Typical dacron sails cost varies by the finishing and number of reefs required. Sailing on a lake in the summer or Long Island Sound or San Diego in the summer, if your sail cover is excellent and always on, a double stiched sail with a single reef will last for years. Going off shore, or sailing SF bay, where 25knots is the norm, triple stiched heavier weight sails with 3 reef points will probably cost double and not last nearly as long. For our delivery sails on the big boat (94' mast) we figure a new main and jib every circumnavigation, or about 30,000 miles. The North sails, built from DP99 in the loaded areas, and DP60 in the less loaded areas to save weight are 25-30K each and the carbon sails much more and last WAY less long.

As a contrast, the J27 jibs, 155's, both the light and heavy, cost the same, $1600 for top of the line DP (Dimension-Polyant) from the fastest sail loft for the class, despite the difference in the weight of the fabric, the 155 light being good up to about 8-10 knots and the heavy being used until 7 big people can't hold the the boat down.

Bottom line, good sails are relative to where and when you sail, and how good the sails were when made. You can sail old, baggy sails for years (just look at the natives that have Suva rice bags sewn as bags or baggy bags for their canoes sails, and try to beat them! Upwind or down)

Fair winds,

Robert

Originally Posted by flounder

First of all let me say," Loiesails, you are the man". Pointing me to The Sailwarehouse provided me with some valuable information. By clicking on a Catalina 42 I came up with price spread of about $6 to $8 per sq. ft for the main. Just for grins I also checked a Manta 42 which had almost the same sail dimension as the Catalina. And came up with about $9.30 per ft which I attribute much of to the thicker cloth of 9.5 vs 8.5 for the Catalina. I imagine a custom sail would be more. Please note: to keep this topic simple lets just talk about a mainsail on a sloop style cruiser rig and keep the battens out of the discussion. I don't think I specified that earlier which led to some confusion. Also I didn't know that Dacron generally had a longer life than most of tech cloths. Thanx again Louie. And the quote about North Sails was helpful in establishing a price range for the high end fabrics with the high end lofts. I wonder if you could repost and tell me what your price per sq. ft. was on your racing sails and what they were made of and if they were a custom as opposed to the loft already having the pattern. Remember I am only trying to establish a price range for guesstimating the cost of replacement sails for the boat that I hope to purchase by fall. I still have a question about the cost per sq. ft. difference if any of a larger sail from a smaller sail considering they were essentially equal in fabric, loft, design etc. Do you think they would be equal? If anyone has good idea of price per sq.ft. for a basic sail in Dacron versus a more expensive type I'd really like you to post that. Just shoot from the hip. I won't hold it against you. If I estimated a new main sail for a cruiser in Dacron at $10 to $15 range per sq. ft. and a Spectra in the $25 to $30 range would I be that far off? And to all that responded on the original square topped question I thank you. There was a thread with pics on a new production boat in this forum that had a square topped rig with battens instead of a gaff but now I've lost it in cyberspace. I knew what a gaff was however I had never seen it horizontal before and didn't know it would still be called a gaff so thanks for clearing that up. I had also seen a topic somewhere on the web with a kinda goofy looking square topped rig with that gaff way up there and was just wondering if that has ever been solidly attached to a rotating mast so it would all move along somewhat evenly without the use of so much rigging. Just hypothetical, mind you. I'm still talking about a sloop style rig so the triangular shape has now become a trapezoid. We'll leave the square rigs for another day. Thanks all BOB

Did you here about the dyslexic, insomniac, atheist?

He stays up all night wondering if there is a dog.