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-   -   What Does Us$120 A Day Cover For Yacht Crew? (https://www.cruiserlog.com/forums/f61/what-does-us-120-a-day-cover-for-yacht-crew-1754.html)

kiwicruiser 03-25-2008 05:33 AM

Hi

I replied to an ad (not here) for crew for a crossing of approx 1250 nautical miles on a 60ft monohull. They advertised that it was a shared expenses trip and crew expected to help in all duties. The cost of this per crew member, per day, was US$120 and this covered food , fuel ,rdf life raft check etc (not sure what the etc is). I replied saying that this was a commercial trip and they replied no it wasn't, this was the daily cost for most off shore passages. There would have been 4 of us on the boat and 2 would have been the paying crew. In light of other forums, I'd be interested on everyone's thoughts on this.

PS Lighthouse I hope I posted this in the right place?

Lighthouse 03-25-2008 07:16 AM

Hi Kiwicruiser

Thanks for sharing this here.

That is an ABSOLUTE commercial venture and if the vessel AND skipper is not inspected, documented and registered to carry paying passengers ("crew") it is highly illegal. Should (God forbid) there be an accident the rights of the "crew" to an insurance claim is grossly compromised and they could find themselves ATTEMPTING to sue the owner in civil court.

Some countries are now aware of this "paying crew" practice - from the French official regulations:

Taking on paying "crew" is not permitted in France - this is considered to be chartering. If a vessel is carrying paying passengers, this must be declared to Customs on arrival in France, the yacht imported and TVA (Value Added Tax) must be paid. (see the Cruising Wiki)

The innocent "crew" don't want to be stuck in some distant port should the vessel be impounded.

People have the right to take up these offers but PLEASE be aware of the possible consequences. Ask questions - ask to see registration documents - ask to see insurance documents - ask to see that the skipper is registered to be in charge of a vessel carrying paying passengers ("crew"). BE WARNED!

ANYTHING MORE THAN BEING ASKED TO SPLIT THE FOOD BILL EQUALLY AT THE FOOD STORE WILL LEGALLY CONSTITUTE "PAYING FOR PASSAGE" IN MOST LAW COURTS AROUND THE WORLD.

https://www.cruiserlog.com/forums/pub.../icon_wall.gif

Nausikaa 03-25-2008 07:30 AM

Kiwicruiser et al,

As a senior coast guard officer (even though I am currently seconded to other duties), I would like to endorse the above statement by Lighthouse.

AS A WARNING

A. To the crew - avoid such offers like the plague. You could end up, as a worse case scenario and, as Lighthouse mentioned, God forbid, as an invalid due to an accident on board and unable to get the economical support you would need as the vessel was not properly certified, inspected and insured. Once the owner is bankrupt your chances of obtaining compensation are, in reality, zero.

B. To the owner / Skipper - don't think of doing this kind of thing! Again, at worst, you could end up pennilless and have the issue of compensation hanging arrouind your neck as well as the guilt of knowing what suffering your actions have caused others. Otherwise, even if there is no injury, you could well end up with some pretty high fines to pay.

Please folks, for your own sakes, don't get involved in this illegal activity.

Aye // Stephen

JeanneP 03-25-2008 12:52 PM

I have just had to go through an exercise of calculating my foreign expenses for the past many years. In 2000 we spent $70.00 per day. That included two years' annual health insurance premium; round trip flight for two people from Singapore to the US East coast; a marina slip for about 6 months, food, etc., etc. In other words, 2000 was a very expensive year for the two of us and it STILL cost only $70/day, or $35/day per person.

I decided to find out how much a sybaritic trip on a cruise ship would cost. All the food you can eat, people to wait upon you, entertainment, hot and cold running water all the time, etc., etc. I went to the Celebrity Cruises website, and came up with the following.

Caribbean. 5 days, price per day per person: inside cabin, $80; outside (sea view) cabin, $100; "veranda" cabin, $120.

Caribbean. 11 days, price per day per person (much more interesting intinerary than the one above): inside cabin, $104; outside cabin, $118; "veranda" cabin, $173.

Now WHY would you want to work hard and occasionally be uncomfortable, and be following somebody else's itinerary, for more than it would cost to take a relaxing trip on a cruise ship? (No, I can't imagine taking a cruise ship cruise, but I wanted to compare a professional cruise.)

Moorings will charter a 51' monohull for $1005 per day, which would cost six people (there are 5 cabins in this boat) $167.50 per day, and Moorings makes a significant profit on the boat.

So. What do you think? I have no idea what the start/end points of that trip were, but if it's just a passage with no stops, you are getting ripped off big time to start, and don't even have the safety and security of it being a legal booking with the associated required insurance and skipper/crew qualifications/licensing.

You have really piqued my interest on this one. For that price you could fly to the US and join a cruise ship!

tell, me, who had the cheek to offer this with a straight face?

ughmo2000 03-25-2008 01:24 PM

I crew a lot of boats, IMHO asking crew to pay $120 per day is totally outrageous.

Still, a bit more information would be appreciated.

Are you a novice sailor looking for training? Is this a guy just wanting to move his boat?

A skipper being paid to deliver a boat then advertising for crew who he also expects to pay him?

Regardless, this is absolutely a commercial venture. Even for total novice crew one should only expect to pay for their share of food aboard, 10-15 dollars per crew/day max. Even that amount is questionable.

I'd advise you to run away from this guy as quickly as possible. (although I'd love to see the link to his post!)

Lighthouse 03-25-2008 08:51 PM

Quote:

(although I'd love to see the link to his post!)

"I replied to an ad (not here) for crew for a crossing of approx 1250 nautical miles on a 60ft monohull"
It was on another crewfinder apparently.

kiwicruiser 03-26-2008 06:07 AM

thanks for your comments so far, I was interested to see what you thought of US$120 a day even if it was a commercial venture...although this is their reply {abridged}. "hi no we are not doing a commerical venture.this is what the daily costs are for most offshore passsages for crew unless you are in the carribean and hold tickets .Toget those you need seatime which is what we can do as being a commerical captain can sign you off.Most boats going offshore can not afford to take people for free". I don't know if the captain teaching navigation skills and signing a sealog accounts for any of the $120? However they only did say the expenses was for 'share passage expenses and experience' in the ad. No this doesn't include any stops along the way. They are delivering a charter boat from our season which is ending to the Pacific season.Jeanne, we too thought about the Cruise Ship comparison. Friends of ours did a weeks cruise, inside cabin, you know one of those late in the season deals. They got all the food they could eat, entertainment, a few south pacific island stops for NZ $1,000 each = $US793. For boat experienced but not yacht experienced newbies that would love to get into a sailing experience (and my partner is a mean fisherman) the cruise option does sound tempting but we just ain't those type of people, just like others here I'd say. Try fishing off a cruise boat! https://www.cruiserlog.com/forums/pub...#>/biggrin.gif Cheers

Lighthouse 03-26-2008 07:32 AM

Quote:

To get those you need seatime
In other words, they are SELLING "seatime" - commercial!

This is very often the bait that is used. However, you can get that "seatime" (and have your logbook signed off) on ANY passage - a genuine cruiser MAY ask you to contribute an equal share of the food costs (US$5 - US$10 per day). Normally, a genuine cruiser will cover the crew's overheads in exchange for their duties and assistance aboard.

JeanneP 03-26-2008 01:04 PM

So this "captain" is a delivery skipper being paid to deliver the boat, or a charter captain bringing his charter boat up island. He really is cheeky, eh? Even gets people to pay to work for him!

If he's chartering his boat in the islands, I wonder if he's doing it legally with a proper work visa? What do you think?

The annual exodus from NZ to the islands is such that I would think that you could find a berth on one of many boats leaving soon, paying little if anything. Many of the Kiwi boats need an extra crewmember or two anyway to qualify for offshore.

Many of the cruisers will stop at Minerva Reef before continuing on. That would be nicer than someone who is in a hurry to get up to his paying grounds, eh?

I hope you find something. Keep looking.

imagine2frolic 03-27-2008 06:50 PM

Turn him, and his ad into the authorities. Let's see if he can make them understand the cost??????

bashfordg 03-28-2008 12:48 PM

Have just read this post.

This is certainly a commercial venture.

I should know as am a commercial operator and some vessels do take on "paying crew" however never advertise like this!

BTW these vessels are in full commercial survey or class, registered to carry passengers with qualified crew.

There are too many cowboys that seek to make a quick buck illegally, preying on others with uninsured unregistered vessels.

,

Nausikaa 03-28-2008 02:28 PM

Thank you for this bashfordg.

It is good to hear the opinion of a serious operator in the industry. I am sure, as such, you concur with the stance taken by this forum.

Aye // Stephen

desierto 04-17-2008 11:23 PM

Hi,

I can see that this is a heated topic. In my opinion all arrangements are valid as long as people freely engage in them. I can also understand that this site is for non-commercial exchanges. I hope I don't ignite more futile debate with my opinion.



What I am really interested in is the legal consequences that have been vaguely cited several times. It is very surprising to me (and to many others judging by the posts) that sharing expenses (such as food, fuel, docking) can be considered running an unreported business.

Could you guys document specific cases or point to sources of information?



As a way of example I'd like to discuss a couple of hypothetical cases:



A) If you go on a trip with several people, driving you own car and sharing the gas expenses, can that be considered an enterprise? Do you need to have a professional driver license, etc.? Could your insurance deny coverage because of that?



https://www.cruiserlog.com/forums/pub...DIR#>/cool.gif Some boat owners cover all the expenses of their crew. Could that be considered an unreported paid job? Could the crew claim employee benefits from the skipper?

Thanks



desierto 04-17-2008 11:29 PM

Gosh!, sorry for the multiple posts. This is the first time I use this forum and I have completely screwed it...

MMNETSEA 04-17-2008 11:59 PM

Check this out for the law in the United Kingdom - Click Law

Nausikaa 04-18-2008 02:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by desierto (Post 20163)
Could you guys document specific cases or point to sources of information?

As a way of example I'd like to discuss a couple of hypothetical cases:

If you go on a trip with several people, driving you own car and sharing the gas expenses, can that be considered an enterprise? Do you need to have a professional driver license, etc.? Could your insurance deny coverage because of that?

Some boat owners cover all the expenses of their crew. Could that be considered an unreported paid job? Could the crew claim employee benefits from the skipper?

Thanks

Why compare a sea voyage with a trip in a car? They are two different things. The Road Traffic Act does not apply to ships and the Merchant Shipping Act does not apply to cars.

A specific case? Sure... See below

Quote:

SCINTILLA CHARTERS

Defendant: Francois Haussauer, skipper/owner of Scintilla

Date of Offence: 7th June 2004

Offence: Five charges arising from two voyages; two for not having the appropriate Certificate of Competence to take charge of the yacht; two for not having Load Line Certification for the yacht, and one for breaching a Prohibition Notice.

Details: The charges were brought by the Maritime and Coastguard Agency, following complaints received in relation to the illegitimate charter operation.

Mr Francois Haussauer, aged 52, had been commercially operating his home built yacht in the South of France for a niche naturist market. He promoted the charter holiday to the British public via the internet, a Channel 5 film and publicity brochures. He offered `Scintilla’ on a skippered charter basis and took paying passengers to sea without the required certification of a charter vessel.

The court heard how Mr Haussauer failed to comply with the regulations even after numerous attempts by the MCA to educate and inform him of the requirements. `Scintilla’ was chartered with intent despite Mr Haussauer’s knowledge that it would violate the safety regulations.

Penalty: Fined Total £4500 costs £11,000
Re the paying of crews' expenses; we are in the area of tax and employment legislation here. Merchant Shipping Acts differentiate between seamen and passangers. However I doubt if employment, tax and social security legislation would be enforceable here. If someone comes and stays with you in your house for a few months and you give them board and lodgings then this does not mean that (s)he is in your employ even if they do the dishes and other household chores on occasion. Here, normal "land" legislation applies whereas the issue of passangers is in the maritime domain.

Aye // Stephen

JeanneP 04-18-2008 03:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by desierto (Post 20164)
Gosh!, sorry for the multiple posts. This is the first time I use this forum and I have completely screwed it...

No, you haven't. Everything is fixable, no worries mate.

Sometimes knowing where a poster comes from helps in answering their questions. I will assume that you are from the US, partly because of the reference to driving and sharing expenses for gas.

Life just isn't so easy that whatever anybody does is okay as long as they want to do it. Civilized countries make sure that people know what they're getting themselves in for. My 14 year old nephew can't work as a forklift operator no matter how much somebody wants to pay him, no matter how much he wants to do it. He's not old enough to know the dangers. He's not old enough, experienced enough, qualified enough, to operate such equipment with a reasonable expectation of safety.

And that issue is at the heart of all the discussions of paying for a berth on a private yacht. The inexperienced person who would like to try sailing, or is looking for a different way of getting home after their backpacking adventure in South America, or Asia, or .... They don't know that this fellow, unlicensed and uninsured to carry passengers, is taking his/her money without being able to provide the protection that paying passengers are entitled to.

Operating a ship or boat in international waters has nothing in common with any other form of transportation wholly within the borders of a single nation, and there are quite different laws and rules governing ocean transportation. However, persons driving a vehicle and transporting persons for hire (limousine drivers, bus drivers, train operators, etc.) do have to have a special license, at least in the US and probably most other developed countries.

25 years ago, if an invited guest on our boat brought a picnic lunch to share with us as we sailed around Boston Harbor, we could have been charged by the US Coast Guard with illegally accepting payment for taking passengers out on our boat without a licensed captain on board. The rules have been relaxed since then, but it is still illegal for an unlicensed operator of a vessel to accept payment from passengers on the boat outside of shared expenses such as food and/or fuel. And that is, in one way or another, similar in many countries, not to mention laws on the high seas. Sharing expenses means just that - expenses of the trip are shared equally among the group on the boat. The owner can't say "each person will pay me $x.xx which I will call sharing expenses."

In the US, and most other countries, commercial operation of a vessel or other form of transportation, requires specific insurance protecting passengers and specific licensing. Without the insurance, neither the owner of the vessel nor the passengers are adequately protected.

Finally, as you will note from my posts, I find the unlicensed owner of a boat seeking to make money from people who wish to sail, but do it on the cheap by calling it "crewing" and "sharing expenses" when it's none of that to be dishonest and dangerous. People who want to sail and are willing to work at it deserve the protection that the laws provide.

It costs a lot to own, operate, and properly maintain a cruising sailboat. The person who bought and launched that sailboat chose his lifestyle and his costs. If that person wants to supplement his income by asking people to pay to sail with him on his boat he should get the proper license, obtain the appropriate insurance, and be honest that he is charging people for the privilege of making his sailing lifestyle cheaper and easier. That person should also pay for a proper advertisement, not argue that he deserves to get his advertising for free because he's really not making a profit on the venture.

Historical Vessel Vega 05-05-2008 08:46 AM

Well for $120 a day you can buy a lot of eats and thats a fact! Feed a whole crew like kings no lie that would. The truth is that one was just a scam to try and get someone to charter the boat without calling it charter. I think that much is pretty clear to us all. What would be nice would be a set of "shudder" guidelines we all could follow to be fair and yet really cover the expenses of having new often green crew who do not know the ropes and therefore do tend to cause more wear and tear on the boat. And lost sleep for the skipper, like anyone cares about that.

On Vega we have a policy where bye new crew pay "expenses" to the tune of around 10-15 $ per day for the first voyage. If they fit in that gets dropped for any voyages after that. In fact hang around long enough and you even start collecting a modest salary. Maybe thats why our "youngest" crew member has been with us for over 2.5 years now.

10-15 per day will buy a lot of provisions, or at least used to a few months ago, but: 1. We try to eat well - a well fed crew don't tend to make the skipper walk the plank. 2. Its a bit of an initiation right - everyones done it and now the gang is munching your contribution in the form of Pringles at 3AM when its dead calm. and last but not least its just plain fair to cover you own till you know how things really do work enough to actually be useful when it comes on to blow a hullie at 3AM and all's standing (usually because some green crew wasn't paying attention to those fluffy things up in the sky). OK so traditional sailing vessels, and there crews, are a bit weird but my point is why can't we set our own standard of what's fair and use that as a guideline for others who come along and haven't a clue? What would be a fair contribution? How could that be calculated in a fair manner?

cwsnowpro 05-07-2008 11:21 PM

Hi all,

WOW, is this ever a scam. https://www.cruiserlog.com/forums/pub...IR#>/angry.gif

Remember they need you, not you needing them! All good skippers that I have crewed for have payed almost ALL of my expenses, yes even beer.

To pay is outrageous, to pay that much is a scam I am sure.

Almost sounds like a Lottery scam.

Once again I have been notified that I have won both the Irish Sweepstakes and the Aussie National Lotteries.

sail you later,

Charles

mb3ski 05-16-2009 08:17 AM

I would think 120 is a bit much. I'm doing a 6 day live aboard class. The cost is 175 a day. It's $2100 for six days sail training for me and the wife. It will be only the instructor and us aboard so the training should be good. 13 meals are included. We will have to eat out 3 night. It also covers the testing and books for ASA-101,103, and 104.

MMNETSEA 05-16-2009 10:24 AM

Is that 175 person/day x 6 = 1050?

2100/6 = 350 per day

Someone is making good money!

What will you learn in those 6 days? Enough to sail off into the wild blue yonder without the instructer?

mb3ski 05-18-2009 02:37 AM

175 person/day x 6 X 2 = 2100 and short answer yes. We will be able to bare boat charter up to a 50ft boat in coastal waters with the certs we are getting. The cost is for the one on two instruction by a certified instructor.

taisho 05-24-2009 04:28 PM

Hi, I would like to know who puts the limits on just food expenses? It would seem fair to me that crew should be willing to share fuel costs, port entry costs and if agreed to marina or mooring costs. I am presently in Ecuador and will be heading to the Galapagos where there is agent fees, $100 per crew park fees, should this be the Captains burden. I just came from Coco's Island where there is a $25 a day boat fee plus $25 per person fee, what about that. I would expect that crew should be willing to contribute to these fees as well as help on daily maintenance. I would not expect for crew to help pay for parts or professional services rendered for repairs. I eagerly await your input. Bob S/V Taisho

Nausikaa 05-24-2009 09:44 PM

@ taisho

This is not a new debate. It has been discussed at length as you will see if you do a simple search regarding this topic. As to whom it is who puts a limit expenses, the simple answer is the master and the crew. One can only eat a certain amount of food per day. If you choose to eat caviar then it is only fair that you should pay for that however there is a an average of what normal living on board costs.

As far as sharing other costs are concerned, i.e. costs for the vessel's account, it is irrelevant what your opinion on the matter is as it is illegal to do this. Again, if you look at previous posts, you will find that the authorities in the UK and France are already taking yacht owners to task for this.

As for these forums, this issue has been well debated. We do not tolerate advertisements for crew if they are expected to pay for anything above and beyond their keep. The simple answer is that if you do not like this then look for your crew elsewhere. In saying this I am not trying to be rude but pointing put the rules of this forum.

Aye

Stephen

taisho 05-25-2009 08:15 PM

Well Nausikaa, You seem to miss my point. What France and England does could matter less to me as mine is an American boat. As JeanneP stated it acceptable by the US Cost Guard for the crew to share in both FOOD AND FUEL costs. So maybe this forum should get in step with US law.

whigwam 05-25-2009 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by taisho (Post 33520)
Well Nausikaa, You seem to miss my point. What France and England does could matter less to me as mine is an American boat. As JeanneP stated it acceptable by the US Cost Guard for the crew to share in both FOOD AND FUEL costs. So maybe this forum should get in step with US law.

i seriously think you seem to miss the point nausikaa was trying to make while still being politically correct. if you dont like it....leave https://www.cruiserlog.com/forums/pub...>/rolleyes.gif . we promise not to hold u back.

JeanneP 05-26-2009 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by taisho (Post 33520)
Well Nausikaa, You seem to miss my point. What France and England does could matter less to me as mine is an American boat. As JeanneP stated it acceptable by the US Cost Guard for the crew to share in both FOOD AND FUEL costs. So maybe this forum should get in step with US law.

Why, pray tell, should this forum get in step with US law? *Just because you are a Canadian/mexican/US/etc., etc. (pick another American country to fill in "etc.") does not mean that this forum is American. *And the laws for the various countries in the Americas differ widely anyway, as do the laws of all the other countries represented by the members of this forum.* And joining a boat in Panama for a Pacific crossing has nothing to do with the laws of any of the countries represented on the boat, anyway. *Think. *

So. *Let's start over.

This forum provides a free crewfinder. *For any nationality. *For any flagged vessel, whatever its nationality. *We do not charge crew or skippers to post their "ads". *Why should someone who wishes to make a profit, or perhaps just reduce their own operating costs of a boat, get a free ad to find someone to help subsidize his lifestyle?*

Costs that are specific to the individual people on the boat should be considered acceptable costs. *In other words, just as cinemas charge admission per person, so do some countries/regions, such as Cocos Island. *However, the boat cost is the skipper's. *After all, if the skipper did not have crew with him, he'd have to pay the boat fee or entry fee anyway. *The crew should not be working for free as well as paying to reduce the skipper's costs. *Pure and simple. *I don't think that crew should pay for fuel, or marinas, or Panama Canal charges, because it is a cost that the skipper has to pay whether he's alone or has crew. *And that is my take. *Those expenses that the skipper with his boat would have to pay regardless of being alone or with crew are the skipper's alone. *Those fees that are person-specific should be paid by each person. *

How hard is that to understand?

Next. *If a boat owner does not have insurance, he should not be taking on passengers or crew. *If a boat has insurance, but does not have insurance to cover paying guests (in other words, the boat does not have charter insurance), then regardless of any other regulations, the insurer can, with impunity, refuse to pay a claim if the boat owner has taken on paying guests (if they are paying any amount for their passage, they are guests, not crew). *Try to split hairs with the insurance company. *In the long run, the insurance company probably has a greater say in what can and cannot be done than US (or any other government's) law, particularly on the high seas.

So. *To crew. *Ask to read the skipper's insurance (he should have it on his boat, if he doesn't, don't believe whatever he tells you). *If you are being asked to pay more than your personal expenses, or your share of food, consider that if something happens to you, the skipper's insurance might not cover you. *It might not cover him. *Think of consequences. *And don't be a sucker. *If the skipper can't cruise without help from his crew, then what else can't he afford? *Proper maintenance? *

Why would anyone want to pay to work for somebody else? *

I know, this is rather belligerant for me. *Sorry.

Nausikaa 05-26-2009 05:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by taisho (Post 33520)
Well Nausikaa, You seem to miss my point..........

No, I get your point very well. It is not the first time we have heard this point being argued.

Jeanne P has given, in her usual articulate and descriptive manner, the counter arguments so I will not spend time on those but will point out that this is an international forum (i.e. not just orientated to North America) where sailors from all parts of the globe are made welcome irrespective of nationality. As you will understand, we must have some rules for managing the forum. One of our rules is that we do not permit advertising for paying crew. The decision to adopt this rule was not taken lightly and, as previously mentioned, it was preceded by much debate.

This forum exists not to influence peoples' opinion but to exchange knowledge and experiences, so you may go on believing that paying crew is acceptable. That is a prerogative we will not try to deny you but we will not tolerate advertisements for paying crew here. It is a simple as that. That is the rule of the forum. Any further debate on this issue would be superfluous.

Aye

Stephen

taisho 05-26-2009 07:59 PM

My, My, My are we not cranky. I have not posted for crew nor will I . I am bringing up points that many of my bluewater brethern agree with. I have been cruising for 35 years and countless miles. Back then you could not get offshore insurance. People realized there was risk as awell as reward to passagemaking. Now I see people setting their itenary by the dictates of their insurance company. Personaly I go offshore to get away from this type of crap. Another thing, I beleive you are bound by the laws of the flag you fly while in international waters. Have a nice life. Fairwinds and fast passages. Taisho over and out

Nausikaa 05-26-2009 08:33 PM

No, not cranky, just tired of repeating the same thing time and again to get people to understand. Let me try to put it simply:

* You are entitled to your opinion

* Many will agree with you

* Many will dissagree with you

* This forum has a rule saying we will not allow ads for paying crew

* How hard is the above to understand?

* If you do not understand this or are not willing to follow our rules the please leave. There are other fora where you will be made welcome.

Lighthouse 07-05-2009 08:15 AM

This forum has no interest in how cruisers fund their cruising lifestyle. However, if money changes hands with crew (over and above an equal share of food costs and any "per person" entry fees, etc,) then it would be expected that you should pay for advertising for that crew and not use free facilities such as this. Many crewfinders accept this but CL does not wish to condone the practice.

This crewfinder was established to assist genuine cruisers to find genuine crew to assist them on passages - NOT to make money.

redbopeep 07-05-2009 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lighthouse (Post 34270)
This forum has no interest in how cruisers fund their cruising lifestyle. However, if money changes hands with crew (over and above an equal share of food costs and any "per person" entry fees, etc,) then it would be expected that you should pay for advertising for that crew and not use free facilities such as this. Many crewfinders accept this but CL does not wish to condone the practice.

This crewfinder was established to assist genuine cruisers to find genuine crew to assist them on passages - NOT to make money.

In addition to the wonderful crewfinder for folks who are looking to crew w/o a fee or get crew for free...Cruiser Log has very nicely also set up a free crewfinder for folks who, for whatever reason (charter boat skippers, etc) are looking for paying jobs. That site is here: https://cruiserlog.ipbfree.com/index.php We don't advertise the site, and it's not used much as of yet, but is there as a resource.

Fair winds,

Tailwalker 09-03-2009 05:32 PM

I like learning the more i read the better i see the picture.... sharks do have 2 legs, where i lived in Plett i educated tourist all the time, be carefull of the ones living on land..

Nausikaa 09-03-2009 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tailwalker (Post 36013)
.... sharks do have 2 legs,..

Almost invariably!

tomonjuno 09-07-2009 06:48 PM

Hello Forum moderators etal,

I have been off site for almost a year, and you are still having the same discussions, and judging by this thread, you are frustrated by having to answer the same questions.

I understand your rules, and understand the issues, what I do not understand is the arbitrary nature of the application of forum rules as the rules are stated. No ads for paying crew, OK fine, This is supposed to be a site for private vessels, not charters or commercial ventures. But yet this site allows for a paid charter boat skipper to advertise for allegedly non paid crew even on his commercial venture, ie, paid delivery of a private yacht, which in some cases is not exactly free to the non paying crew when all is said and done.

I had numerous discussions on this topic with staff and students of several competency certification schools while in Durban, SA. The staff freely admitted they were steering students to this web site, not find a crew or other commercial sites. to hook up with the skipper. The students I spoke to said the reality is that it was not exactly at no cost to them to gain this experience. No plane tickets home, some times they needed to kick in for food, there was no paid time off when ashore, ferry service to and from the boat in St Helelna was not paid, ditto port fees, if they got to the point of departure at the appointed hour and the boat was not ready, they were on their own until it was ready, the litany was long and varied. Now these boats were for the charter boat fleet in the Carib, manufactured in SA with a skipper who was paid to have a competent crew as required by law and insurance for this commercial delivery venture. If this is not a commercial venture, what is it? I really would like to hear your rational on this issue. Surely this is a more difficult legal/insurance situation than a private skipper getting reimbursed for nominal expenses on his own personal craft for recreational crew volunteering to help sail his boat.

As you may remember, I was allowed to post requests, for shared expense crew, for quite some time, until some unidentified individual became vitriolic (perhaps vitriolic posters should be disallowed) about my posts, and as requested, I no longer post such requests on the site. I was and stil am asking reimbursed for food and fuel, at a rate of just at $15US per day, clearly not at the limit of that 60 foot vessel mentioned in the earlier post. This is the only cruising site site that seems to have a problem with this type of funding at that modest a level. Notably, the pay as you go site every one recommends as an alternative crew finder even has as part of its selections for recreational crew to "share expenses". They apparently do not see the legal or insurance issues as being show stoppers that this forum keeps throwing up as validation of the rules.

One final point regarding international rules, the fact that some british agency agrees with your thinking does not make your view an absolute international concept; as one poster noted, there is a diverence of opinion on this amongst different national agencies, the USCG for one.

As an aside, inviting people to leave the forum when there is a disagreement that has been professionaly and politely expressed, is not what internet forums are about. Just as you note in this thread, this is an public and international forum, not a private US forum. If you wish is a place to hold forth on your personal views, without discussion, it would be more properly called a blog. Since it is a public forum, one can expect disagreement on opinions, sometimes that is frustrating to the moderators, but they are there to moderate the discussion, not muzzle it.

I suggest these thoughts not because I think I can sway your opinions regarding paying crew but just to help you understand why some are frustrated with the views of this web site in regard to this specific topic. In general, I would say that the posts I have read by the moderators are reasonably restrained and well expressed. Neverthless I still sense frustration in the moderators posts at having to continuously support their position; I would suggest that that reason is those of us on the outside ooking in find the position to be arbitrary; those with whom I have discussed this issue believe you have expressed your position adequately. Regretably, the execution of the policy just does not match the justifications tendered.

With warm regards, hope you are enjoying Labor Day, and continue to enjoy cruising!

Tom

Nausikaa 09-07-2009 07:13 PM

Hi Tom,

Warm welcome back to CruiserLog and thanks for a marathon post! I hope the past year has been good to you and that you have enjoyed your cruising to the full.

To give you my take on your comments let me first begin with your "aside". Of course you are right. I am sure no one here has anything against people voicing their opinions - that is what a discussion forum is all about. However, we have our basic rules which we want people to follow. It is not a matter of opinion as that can, within the bounds of decency and the law, be freely expressed here.

I will not dwell any longer on the original issue - that has been thrashed about far too long. All we ask is that people do not post for paying crew and, if we are the only forum with that standpoint, then I think we have found our niche.

Of course, there will always be someone who gets through the net. The choice is not to have the crewing boards or to have them with a few basic rules to be followed, accepting that it cannot be absolutely watertight. I, for one, would not like to see the crewing boards disappear. They are here as a service to cruisers and crew seekers but, hand on heart, by their very nature do not generate other than a flitting interest as once a crew member and a boat are "hooked up" they are obviously setting sail and, generally, we do not hear from them again - more is the pity because they could contribute much to the other discussions.

You, I am pleased to see, are one of the exceptions. You are back again. We always like to see old friends return.

Aye // Stephen

tomonjuno 09-07-2009 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nausikaa (Post 36125)
Hi Tom,

Warm welcome back to CruiserLog and thanks for a marathon post! I hope the past year has been good to you and that you have enjoyed your cruising to the full.

To give you my take on your comments let me first begin with your "aside". Of course you are right. I am sure no one here has anything against people voicing their opinions - that is what a discussion forum is all about. However, we have our basic rules which we want people to follow. It is not a matter of opinion as that can, within the bounds of decency and the law, be freely expressed here.

I will not dwell any longer on the original issue - that has been thrashed about far too long. All we ask is that people do not post for paying crew and, if we are the only forum with that standpoint, then I think we have found our niche.

Of course, there will always be someone who gets through the net. The choice is not to have the crewing boards or to have them with a few basic rules to be followed, accepting that it cannot be absolutely watertight. I, for one, would not like to see the crewing boards disappear. They are here as a service to cruisers and crew seekers but, hand on heart, by their very nature do not generate other than a flitting interest as once a crew member and a boat are "hooked up" they are obviously setting sail and, generally, we do not hear from them again - more is the pity because they could contribute much to the other discussions.

You, I am pleased to see, are one of the exceptions. You are back again. We always like to see old friends return.

Aye // Stephen

Thanks Steve for welcoming me back. Cruising hss been wonderful aside from a transmission that seems to have a mind of its own and an anchor windlass that has been giving fits. I would recommend Madagascar and Suriname as too excellent spots ot visit for those who wish a bit of insight into other cultures, and where there are relativelyfew other cruisers!

On to the topic!

I would like an answer to my question, why allow charter boat delivery guys post looking for crew and deny someone like myself? These are not just a case of one isloated individual, there are many boats being delivered in just this manner to the Carribean. I would like an answer; no one, as best I can tell addressed that specific question.

This of course asks a key issue regarding the core policy or rules established by the forum, so I think it is appropriate for those individuals responsible for formulating and implementing the policy to address the topic, politely and appropriately. If the issue of why delivery skippers has been addressed before, please point me to the relevant thread, then I can judge for myself the consistency of the rationale behind the policy.

Short of that, I do not think the original isssue has been thrashed about far too long, I for one, and apparently others would like to talk about this issue, but what I am hearing from the moderators is that they do not wish to hear discussion about what is clearly an open issue world wide.

When you read the initial threads, it is apparent that the moderators opinion is against the policy of allowing paid crew, it also appears the moderators are against having any further discussion on the topic. Why so, what is wrong with debate? If the discussion does not line up with the moderators opinions, but the discussion is relevant to the topic, is done within reasonable bounds of decency and within the "law", why not have dialogue? I of course can chose not to continue to discuss the topic, so can a moderator, the difference is the moderator must review the posts, just as they do any other posts, to check for decency and appropriatness to the topic. If the opinions offend the moderators personal opinion, they need not comment, only if the post is not appropriate to the topic or is considered personally offensive.

Of course if the moderators are making the policy at hand, they should be able to explain the policy, if that becomes an issue. The moderator should abide by the same rules of discussion that apply to all posters when doing so. Regretably that defense often takes time and effort, lots of time and effort, but you volunteered for the position, I did not!!!

Moderate, but do not mandate, what will or will not be discussed. If a given modertor finds it difficult to answer the policy questions, or if the bulk of posters find a consensus on an issue that is contrary to a set of forum rules, perhaps a review of policy is in order.

Warm Regards

Tom

Lighthouse 09-07-2009 11:04 PM

Welcome back Tom. This is really an issue for you isn't it? There is so much other good stuff on the forum to get your teeth into and you are very qualified to contribute constructively on many of the discussions.

Quote:

Notably, the pay as you go site every one recommends as an alternative crew finder even has as part of its selections for recreational crew to "share expenses". They apparently do not see the legal or insurance issues as being show stoppers that this forum keeps throwing up as validation of the rules.
You pays your money and post what you like! Please use those alternatives if they have no restrictions in their operating policy or "unfair" rules such as on CL. The Net is full of choices.

This is the whole issue. We are NOT a specialist crewfinder and let me repeat; the crewfinder was set up on this site to assist genuine cruisers to find extra hands to assist them on longer passages. This is the oldest crewfinder of this type on the Net and it did not take others too long to realise that there was money to be made in this concept. Good luck to them.

You appear to want CL to "reform policy" as you feel that the crewfinder is being run unfairly. Well, unfortunately, the next "policy reform" will be to remove the crewfinders altogether as they have been more trouble than they are worth. They would have been closed down some time ago except for the fact that we get so much positive feedback. Bad, "unfair" examples of CL "policy" do however slip through for which I apologise.

But, this "debate" has gone on for so long (too long now), and the "dead horse" has been revived again now so perhaps you have initiated the need for us to shut down the crewfinder and finally put an end to this aggrivating thorn in our sides once and for all. The administrator and moderators would certainly enjoy and appreciate the break from the horse-whipping on this issue.

CL has the right to set it's own rules and if they have been unfair it was not the intention.

The administration and moderators will discuss how best to pull the crewfinders over the next couple of days so there is no need to discuss your other questions about deliveries, etc. Apologies to those members that have used the CL crewfinder successfully over the many years will come later.

Thank you for your input Tom, it has assisted CL to take a final decision. We all give up freely of our time to ensure that the forums run smoothly and it will certainly be easier on us all without the crewfinders.

Cheers!

Tailwalker 09-07-2009 11:28 PM

For someone like me entering this world, this is interesting indeed..

tomonjuno 09-08-2009 12:52 AM

Hello Lighthouse

Regarding my ability to constructively post on many issues, you are correct.

This issue happens to be one of them.

I have tried to express my opinions, and that is all they are, just opinons, based on of a few of my observations and discussion with folks in SA, as clearly and professionaly as I am capable. I get the sense that this has offended you, for that I am truly sorry.

I see no sense in expressing my opinions on other forums where the policies already support my opinions on this issue, but rather it seems to me to make more sense to speak directly to the cruising forum that had a direct impact on my cruising. I responded to the strongly stated opinions of others on this forum, I spoke specifically on topic and supported by my own personal observations, regarding what I believe to be a stated policy that is not consistent to the implementation of that policy. If this offends you, again I say I am truly sorry, but it is what free debate is about. Nevertheless, I am still waiting for an answer on topic.

If the policy makers of this forum, whoever they may be, chose to close down what they believe to be a valuable service to the cruising community, the burden is on those policy makers, not on those individuals that identify a problem. Since this has been an ongoing issue for some years, that fact alone indicates some major issues with the policy. The fact that the forum is considering shutting down this service rather than engaging in healthy dialogue, also suggests an underlying problem. So perhaps it is in the forums best interest to discontinue the service. That would be especially true if the policy makers do not see it as a core service to the cruising community but just a headache.

But again, I am not one of the policy makers, and clearly the decidion to close the service or not is one that belongs with policy makers of this forum.

Warm regards and best wishes going forward, this forum does provide an excellent service, despite our disagreements on this issue.

Tom

Lighthouse 09-08-2009 06:45 AM

Quote:

The fact that the forum is considering shutting down this service rather than engaging in healthy dialogue, also suggests an underlying problem. So perhaps it is in the forums best interest to discontinue the service. That would be especially true if the policy makers do not see it as a core service to the cruising community but just a headache.
So much positive feedback that we have received over the years clearly indicates that our crewfinder is a good service for the CRUISING COMMUNITY - to those that are happy to accept the CL crewfinder usage policy. However, there are many that wish to bend the CL crewfinder "rules" and go to great lengths to tell us (often with much abuse) how to change these rules to suit their own agendas. To those I say; open your own facility and set your own "rules". This is the "headache"!

I have personally been involved in this "issue" for 10 years now. If I appear to be unwilling to debate the issue (again) it is because I have been down this road so many times and I am tired of it. My vote is to close down the crewfinders, but, the decision will be taken after rational engagement with the full admin team.

My apologies to you, our forum readers, crewfinder users and the rest of the admin team for my unwillingness to further discuss this issue here.

With great respect.

JeanneP 09-08-2009 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomonjuno (Post 36130)
When you read the initial threads, it is apparent that the moderators opinion is against the policy of allowing paid crew....

Moderate, but do not mandate, what will or will not be discussed. If a given modertor finds it difficult to answer the policy questions, or if the bulk of posters find a consensus on an issue that is contrary to a set of forum rules, perhaps a review of policy is in order.

Warm Regards

Tom

First, welcome back.

I would hope that disagreeing with one or more of the moderators of this board doesn't mean that we are disagreeable?

This board is moderated by a motley crew with widely varied attitudes and opinions on many topics, but we all get along and we can agree to disagree. You're free to choose with whom, what, and when you agree or disagree on this board.

Part of my personal position with regard to the crewfinder is my distaste for a cruising boat owner asking for contributions to the operation of the boat from the crew that he needs to help him run the boat. We've only taken on crew once, and a great crew member he was. We didn't really need his help, but it was welcome. We did not need any contribution from him, and did not take any. He was pleasant company on a longish passage (3 legs, 19, 13, and 4 days) and a great help. We met many people who took on crew, or simply friendly hitch-hikers, and I don't recall any of them making a contribution beyond a reasonable share of food and their own personal expenses. Which is as it should be. If an owner can't afford, for example, the Panama Canal transit without his crew contributing a share of the fee, I don't believe the owner should be transiting the Panama Canal! If the owner can't afford the boat fee for Cocos Island without the crew kicking in part of it, well then he shouldn't be going there. The per person charges, though, are understandably crew expenses, provided that the crew knows about them in advance. If the skipper is the only person who wants to go to Cocos but can't get there without crew, and the crew don't want to go, well, then, why is the skipper asking the crew to pay to go where they don't want to? You get the idea, I think.

I repeat myself I know, but here goes.

There is another issue here, and that is the safety and protection of the crew. In our experience we have seen that if there is any reason that an insurance company can find for not paying a claim, it will not. I know of one time that a crew member was seriously injured in a boat accident and the owner "snuck away in the dead of the night" leaving all medical expenses to be paid by the injured crew or the charity of others. I assume it was because the owner did not have insurance that would pay for the bills. Either that or he was a rotter. It's one reason I urge all crew to be sure to see the boat's insurance policy and make note of pertinent information before they leave the dock. If the owner is found to have illegally used the boat for charter and he is not insured for it, is not a licensed captain when one is required by the laws of his country and the insurance compay, well, then, no insurance benefits are available to that crew/"charterer."

I would not require that an owner state how much a crewmember should kick in for food since in many places it would be significantly less than $10 or $15 per day, but other moderators on the board don't agree with me, and well, it's not that big a deal. It could be more, I agree, but it would have to be a filet mignon and truffles diet to get up in the $15 per day range in most places.

I really don't care how an owner tries to justify his charging; as the owner of the boat it is he who decides whether to run the engines, stay in a marina, visit countries that charge the boat for entry. If he is asking his working crew to pay any portion of that when it is not specifically a charge assessed for each person on the boat, then the owner is profiting from his crew without providing anything but a sailing trip and a place to work in return. I personally would not want to be on a boat where the skipper could not afford to run it without taking on paying crew to help with his expenses. If he can't afford to visit places without help, what else on the boat can he not afford to pay for? Proper maintenance? Working gear?

Now I'm repeating myself a bit too much.

If an owner can find crew willing to pay boat costs in order to work on the boat, that's the crew's choice, but we do not want that posting on CL. Make your money from somebody else's crew board, not this free one. If we learned of a boat misrepresenting itself in that way on the CL crewfinder, well, you already know that we're going to delete the post, don't you?

Finally (I think), the issue of delivery skippers and crew. For persons who need experience or miles, crewing on a delivery boat is a good way to get that experience and miles and I think it's a great opportunity for wannabe cruising sailors. If a delivery skipper made his crew pay for food or boat expenses, we would most likely delete his post here. However, I personally see no problem with a delivery skipper posting for crew on CL provided he follows the same rules as all the other boats. It would be a sorry delivery skipper if he made his working crew pay for their food and board - run, crew, run from such a skipper. Yes, a delivery skipper is paid for his work, and sometimes he has to pay crew. Then it's purely commercial and again, not for this board.

I like delivery skippers and have several friends who do that work, some for pay, some for the sheer pleasure of getting out on the water.

If the skippers provide us with more information about the good, and bad, boats, we have an invaluable resource there. One thing that too many cruising sailors fail to do is to be brutally honest about the problems and mistakes they have made. I include my husband and me in that assessment, though I TRY to be honest. Delivery skippers, though, usually have little invested in the boat, particularly the horror story boats, so they can provide us with some good information. (Paid captains can't do that, and I understand their reluctance to bite the hand that is feeding them and don't hold it against them).

However, all my discussions and arguments aside, I can't understand why you want to belabor this issue. If you don't like CL's restrictions and rules and you know we're not going to change, you don't have to use our crewfinder.

One final issue before we say the last rites for this dead horse. I like the Crewfinders, but it is more work and causes more consternation than any of the other categories on this board. It is a rare skipper or crew who give anything back to this board after finding their boat or crew, so perhaps we're doing a lot of work for nothing in return. Yet you think that our position on allowing commercial posts is wrong-headed. Why do you feel that the webmaster of this free forum should pay for the privilege of lining somebody else's pockets?

My fellow moderators are probably groaning right now, "oh, Jeanne, don't encourage him - again." I like to argue though I doubt that I can change your mind. That's okay, though. We can still be friends on this board.

Fair winds,

Jeanne

tomonjuno 09-09-2009 08:41 PM

Thanks Jeanne for the welcome back, and for responding to the delivery skipper issue.

I agree that folks can agree to disagree. I would also note that the moderators on this forum are as good as it gets, way better than on some other forums, the only notable difference is they spend more time discussing some topics than on moderating! I have no reason to find them personally disagreeable, indeed, if they were here in Grenada, we could sit down at De Big Fish and enjoy a beer, my treat! It might be a good idea to steer clear of this topic, and discuss the proper amount of scope, the right type of anchor, the proper cruising rig, or politics, sex or religion or similar non heated topics!

The board has every right to set policy. If they do not wish to have private boats posting for recreational crew who share expenses, they have every right to do so. When the policy is inconsistent with the implementation, or if the policy is to one extreme or the other of the cgeneral consensus, it can be expected to see some rigorous discussion in the appropriate forums. Hence I see no reason not to post here, even though I disagree with the policy. As I have said before, this is a forum, it is not for me to go and open another one to express my views, I should be able to do it here. But someone does not want discussion, they can open a blog site!

I believe I understand the argument you and the others have put forward regarding recreational crew paying for shared expenses. I believe there are three basic arguments. First, the practice is considered illegal. Second boats should have insurance. Thirdly, if the owner can not afford to operate the boat without crew, he should not take on board these crew.I would point out that the first two are not requirements by any international body, and while they may be required in certain instances in certain locations, it is not a universal law. I would suggest that all such arguments are really just expressions of opinion. The latter is clearly a matter of opinion.

Whether any one of these a good practice for an individual boat is certainly open for discussion, so long as the discussion does not turn personal.

However in several of the posts, I have noted comments that if a boat engages in this practice, that somehow the skipper is operating illegally or is operatig a scam. Since the underlying premise of the argument is false (nothing requires an boat owner to do or not do these things) I would categorize the argument as Ad Hominem, and by their very nature they are fallacious. I think you can understand that I would feel a bit upset by someone making a statement that would characterize my operation of Juno as a scam, even indirectly. Ad Hominem arguments often bring that kind of reaction. Presenting these kinds of argument, ie, saying such operations are illegal, is doing a diservice to the public who reads these posts.

Other than suggesting that legal and insurance issues are just opinions, I have no new insight into these issues that have not been expressed time and again, other than to add my belief that it is the owner/operator to make a decision that he/she can live with when problems arise!.

On the issue of operations and affordability, ie, not taking anyone onboard unless you can afford it, I would pose a hypotetical. I am a single guy, and in the course of my cruising I met a lady whom I would like to have on the boat as a partner/companion for a long term committed relationship. . But I do not have enough money to travel with another person on board, but she is independently wealthy. Should I or should I not ask her to help cover the additional costs of her living on the boat? I understand that if she has no money, it is a moot question, I must make a responsible decision about whether to continue cruising or chosing a different lifestyle. Just so one does not think I am being patronizing about men /women, what if the owner/operator was a lady with the same dilemna?

I do not see a difference between this scenario and recreational crew, well aside from the romance issues, but surely you are not going to throw that on the table as a defining issue?)

Regarding delivery skippers, if the rule is no commercial ventures, then that is the rule. To allow an exception for one is not fair to those who complied with the rules and then were asked to leave, like myself, because some underlying criteria changed. Now my personal belief is the same as yours Jeanne, that the delivery skipper is ok doing what he is doing. I believe I am am doing ok, but our personal beliefs are not the issue here. The issue is whether this should be allowed. No rule has changed, it has been this way for more than several years, and these charter delivery guys are not being kicked off as I was, even though I scrupioulsly followed the rules. I find this to be inconsistent and a bit arbitrary.

Thanks again Jeanne for engaging in the dialogue, I appreciate the courtesy.

Warm regards

Tom


JeanneP 09-10-2009 01:27 PM

Tom, I love a debate more than most, otherwise I wouldn't continue to moderate this forum. However, this issue is being nit-picked until it's bloody.

First, Cruiser Log is not a charter broker, employment agency, welfare agency, lonely hearts club, bordello or pimp. It is a free forum for cruisers seeking a place to exchange information and generally interact with other like-minded souls. There are lots of places on the internet to find what we are not, and everyone is free to do so.

None of us care if you want people to pay you to take them on your boat. We also are not interested in your love life, and if you can find a woman who is willing to pay you for your companionship and attention, go for it. Do whatever you want, but don't advertise it for free on this board. That is the commercial aspect we balk at.

Delivery skippers who are looking for unpaid crew do not, IMO, present a contradiction of our "rules", provided that the skipper is not charging the crew for boat expenses, is not looking for professional crew expecting payment, and the posting is clear on the subject of what the passage entails. I can see that this seems to be a contradiction to some people, but so it goes. Lots of people are looking for blue water miles, and delivery skippers are some of the best options, though there's no romantic cruising going on with these deliveries. In my opinion, the crew is gaining significant benefits from crewing on a delivery passage.

We're still not going to let you advertise on this board for somebody to pay you to take them sailing.

However, the legal and insurance issues are not just opinions. Do you have boat insurance? If you do, have you discussed the issue of taking on paying passengers, and whether your insurance covers them? Have you ever been in a South American jail? I don't believe that you have informed us of what flag your boat flies, though on offshore passages other laws prevail.

I would wish that some of those who benefit from the crewfinder sections gave back a bit more to this board, and I continue to lobby for keeping the crewfinders in the expectation that we will hear from one of them for something more than another passage.

In the end, my focus is on protecting potential crew from being exploited, though I recognize that the better qualified the crew, the more offers and options they have. The inexperienced crew are left to their own devices and often feel they have to pay in order to convince a boat to take them on. I want to assure them that "it ain't necessarily so", and beyond that, I concur with the board on not permitting boats to post here if they are looking for payment beyond sustenance for the crew.

Another repeat: If an owner can't pay their boat's expenses, I want to warn crew that maybe that boat isn't safe to be crewing on. That is my biggest hobbyhorse.

Even if we disagree, we can still be friends.

Fair winds,

J

Tailwalker 09-10-2009 01:44 PM

i feel like i am cought in the middle of this, no worries i am learning a lot in a very short space of time, this is heighly educational for me!!

thanks think i am going to log out of here//

troy

Lighthouse 09-10-2009 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tailwalker (Post 36267)
thanks think i am going to log out of here//

troy

I wouldn't do that - I think that this is the best place for you to be in your circumstances. Lots to learn here! There are so many "crew" out there that just go in blindly and don't ask the right questions. You have asked and received good, straight forward answers from both sides of the debate and should be in a better position to negotiate your step forward.

Do not feel that you are in the middle of this - this debate has raged for 10 years on this forum. The good thing about it is that there is much for you to learn from it.

tomonjuno 09-10-2009 08:11 PM

Thanks Lighthouse

Regretably for you as the moderator, because of the time involved, these issues will not die until some misconceptions are cleared, and ambiguous policies adequately explained. This not nit picking, these are issues of relevance to many, if not all. If it were not so, the dialogue would have stopped 9 plus years ago. If matters not whether it is me, because there will be others asking the same or similar questions. You must accept that as fact.

I did not ask you to comment on my love life. The question was hypothetical. Your answer is an ad hominen response, and by definiton it is fallacious.

I will ask again, if a solo lady meets a guy she is interested in having aboard for a period of time as a sailing partner, and can not afford to pay for that persons share of expenses, but the other person can chip in to assist, what is wrong with asking for a shared expenses arrangement to be made?

All the arguments of insurance and legal issues are wonderful, your points on these subjects all have merit and should be considered by those who need to consider those things. I wish I could agree that they have been over done. But I still see people, some of them moderators on the site, saying that such activities are illegal. We know they are not. It disturbs me that folks are still expressing opinions that are just flat out contrary to the facts.

If I understand the position of the forum, the comercial delivery skipper who is being paid for a trip, and does not charge for food, but will not meet the other requirements that may be required for crew like return fare home, can post primarily because you feel it is not a commercial venture. The sole difference between his boat and mine is then is the issue of shared food costs. None of the legal or insurance issues matter in his case? But they apply in mine? Have I correctly stated your position?

As I said in my earlier posts, I have no problem with the delivery skipper doing these activities, I just wish I could do the same thing without it being impuned that I am breaking the law or being irresponsible.

I look forward to your response, particularly on the hypothetical, it speaks directly to the issue of food costs.

Regards

Tom

PS Are you sailing these days? If you are near Grenada, perhaps we can get together for that beer. I promise not to bring this topic up, OK?

Tailwalker 09-10-2009 10:35 PM

I know lighthouse...

Have to be focused and multitasking so many levels.. learn only one way and that's the hard way.. You guys are opening up my mind - i am taking it in both sides - like a sponge.

Its good for me to hear what Tom has to say coz i need to know these things, its important as i taking this subject rather seriously..

Ps. I always listen to both sides of the story ( argument) I always seem to wind up on the extreme part of life - you guys assist me on so many ways...

thank you all of you..this is very educational

redbopeep 09-11-2009 12:10 AM

Tom,

I really wonder what is your agenda here? Lord help us if your goal is to make every fallacious argument in this list!.

Being not the brightest bulb on the porch myself, I had to look up ad hominem:



"Description of Ad Hominem

Translated from Latin to English, "Ad Hominem" means "against the man" or "against the person."

An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument. Typically, this fallacy involves two steps. First, an attack against the character of person making the claim, her circumstances, or her actions is made (or the character, circumstances, or actions of the person reporting the claim). Second, this attack is taken to be evidence against the claim or argument the person in question is making (or presenting). This type of "argument" has the following form:

1. Person A makes claim X.

2. Person B makes an attack on person A.

3. Therefore A's claim is false.

The reason why an Ad Hominem (of any kind) is a fallacy is that the character, circumstances, or actions of a person do not (in most cases) have a bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made (or the quality of the argument being made). "


I found myself laughing since I think you're totally out to lunch to be calling Lighthouse's post ad hominem... https://www.cruiserlog.com/forums/pub...IR#>/happy.gif Perhaps someone has recently called your arguments such? I do believe it was Jeanne, not Lighthouse, who referred to your example of girlfriend btw...

On to real thought...

The CL crew boards are provided for passage making yachts to link up with crew at no cost to the crew or the captain. It doesn't matter if the passage making yacht is owned by a not-for-profit such as a church, if it a vessel on a delivery trip, if it is owned by cruisers...whatever. The goal is simply to link up these folks for a good passage at no cost to or profit by either party to the other. In various countries the "no cost" definition has been that crew can pay for their own food while aboard so, of course, we find this reasonable. It should be clear, to an intelligent human being such as yourself, that the delivery skipper's pay and his relationship with his employer really has nothing to do with whether the skipper can meet the requirements of the CL policy of crew not paying for anything more than their own costs (food, transport to and from boat). Right?

You know, (well I'm almost certain that you know this....) that in some countries (like the USA) even having friends and family cover the cost of fueling up your boat after you've spent a day on the water with them is not legal unless you have the requisite licenses for yourself and your vessel. Take that money and it becomes a commercial activity. My sister-in-law has worked her way through a number of impressive USCG licenses but won't take money, food, alcohol, anything from friends/family because her present boat is NOT insured for charters AND because many times she has more than 20 folks on board when out for a day trip and the boat is not an inspected vessel (required for more than 6 folks on board in the USA). Therefore, smart girl, she just won't accept money, food, fuel, etc. Here in the USA, the Coast Guard takes the position that your guests for a daysail can't even provide you with food and drink (beyond their own share...) unless you have the requisite licenses for yourself and your vessel (dependent upon party size, etc.)

You are obliquely and directly slamming the CL and its mods with your posts. This seems a bit petty, IMHO. And, you're slamming the mods and CL for things that aren't even true. That's fallacious for sure! but really not nice, you know? I mean, a simple, straightforward, and really not arbitrary policy is in place for the crew postings--no money changes hands except for the cost of food of the crew. No exceptions there. Nothing unclear or arbitrary about it. CL doesn't care if the boat is an inspected vessel if the captain is licensed or not.

The real bottom line that CL cares about is that the crew is not paying for anything beyond their own expenses...things that in most cases (unlicensed captain etc) they shouldn't be paying for, legally--and for that matter we also care that the crew aren't being paid (as employees) by the boat owner (other side of the coin that you don't seem to care about here...) The goal here is simple and I'd think you'd appreciate it-- a newbie doesn't get taken advantage of, period. Further, some innocent cruisers might not even realize that if they take on "paying crew" that they are opening themselves up to liabilities that their regular insurer isn't going to cover.

Since you do seem to have a business/take profit from crew--Are you a licensed skipper in one or more countries? Is your vessel an inspected vessel in the country it is flagged in?

Since you're insinuating that we're actually being dishonest about the licensing requirements--what countries do you know for certain do not require commercial charters to be licensed? I would be happy to have that info available here. Because what you're talking about is defined as a commercial activity in most places, I personally would love to know if such no-license places exist. This info could warn potential crew, at a minimum, that chartering boats flagged in those countries might not be a good idea.

It would be likely useful to the CL community to know what the licensing requirements are in a variety of countries. I imagine knowing what they are would take a bit of research--after all, there are a lot of countries out there, right? Thinking of this, the CL policy of not allowing posts for anything more than "no cost" is even more a good idea. We try to actively support each and every cruiser who posts an ad; with no money changing hands we don't have to deal with or worry that we may be actively linking up crew with a captain who is breaking the law in a given country. Seems a reasonably policy. So, if you could, please stop slamming CL with your posts about how arbitrary the policies are.

If you, like the delivery skippers J refers to, are willing to take passengers/crew at no cost (to the passenger/crew), great, it seems there's no problem--post a free ad about a no-cost crewing opportunity.

If you do have the proper licenses, managed to be properly insured, and are operating a business taking in money from those paying passengers/crew, then go to a site that accepts your ads and post there (including the free crewfnder here which you are welcome to use. That page was set up just for cases like you--people who want money to change hands. Again, the crew finder linked to is NOT supported by CL, it is simply provided so that folks like you can have a place to go at no cost and post their ads ).

But back to my question--what is your agenda? I'm finding it very tiresome to read your posts in which you seem to not understand the direct and straightforward stance has been presented to you. CL doesn't care what a skipper's profession is when a skipper is posting an ad; CL only cares that the crew is not being asked to pay for more than that crew members food (which is considered reasonable world wide.) Got it?

Fair winds,

Brenda

JeanneP 09-11-2009 03:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomonjuno (Post 36276)
I will ask again, if a solo lady meets a guy she is interested in having aboard for a period of time as a sailing partner, and can not afford to pay for that persons share of expenses, but the other person can chip in to assist, what is wrong with asking for a shared expenses arrangement to be made?

And I will reply again, None of us care if you want people to pay you to take them on your boat. We also are not interested in your love life, and if you can find a woman who is willing to pay you for your companionship and attention, go for it. Do whatever you want, but don't advertise it for free on this board. That is the commercial aspect we balk at.



Quote:

If I understand the position of the forum, the comercial delivery skipper who is being paid for a trip, and does not charge for food, but will not meet the other requirements that may be required for crew like return fare home, can post primarily because you feel it is not a commercial venture. The sole difference between his boat and mine is then is the issue of shared food costs. None of the legal or insurance issues matter in his case? But they apply in mine? Have I correctly stated your position?
No, you have not correctly stated CL's position, and I'm sure that you know it. WHAT legal or insurance issues are you talking about? Is that your ad hominem argument? Why are you saying "but will not meet the other requirements that may be required"? Where did that come from?



I have a bunch of wonderful nephews and nieces, and your postings remind me of one of the nephews when he was about 8 years old. He just couldn't let a refusal of anything go without pushing it. Tell him he couldn't do something and he'd say, "well, can I do (??)" Reply no, and he'd ask, "well, how about (??)", and this could go on all day. He'd push, and push, and push. Not because he cared so much, but just because he couldn't stand being told he couldn't do something.

Is that what this is about? Are you trying to see if we make a mistake and say "yes" to one of your scenarios, and like my nephew, try to finally wear us out?

Okay, you have my permission to ask anybody cruising with you on your boat to share all your boat expenses. You don't have CL's permission to post for such a person on our crewfinder, however. You can ask a crewmember to pay you $50 a day and do all your work for you, and we won't care. We do care if you put it on the crewfinder.

Now, how hard was that?


Lighthouse 09-11-2009 09:34 AM

Just as an aside. from recently updated regulations for France: (my guess is that many other countries have become aware of the practice to "fudge" the rules/laws)

Taking on paying "crew" is not permitted in France - this is considered to be chartering. If a vessel is carrying paying passengers, this must be declared to Customs on arrival in France, the yacht imported and TVA (Value Added Tax) must be paid.

It would be very difficult to police but, all it needs is one "unhappy" crewmember to have a boat impounded and the balance of the "crew" in the position to have to make their own way home.

You take your chances! If caught, you pay the price!

The practice is widespread and CL has no interest in how cruisers fund their passages except (to repeat) that these types of ads should not be placed on a FREE facility such as this. Pay for advertising!

We do however have concern for "crew" that blindly pay for their crew-spot and do not realise that in doing so they have become "paying passangers" with a very different legal status aboard. This discussion has been educational and therefore has served a purpose.

Tailwalker 09-11-2009 03:02 PM

Is this correct then - its illegal and most countries know this...

Nausikaa 09-11-2009 04:51 PM

Is this correct then?

Let me quote Watkins, insurers at Lloyd's.

Quote:

B. PRIVATE PLEASURE PURPOSES WARRANTY

Unless otherwise agreed by Us in writing and/or by an Endorsement being noted on the Schedule, You warrant

that the Vessel will be used for private pleasure purposes only and that it will not be let out for charter, hire or

reward or otherwise used for commercial purposes
Now, by paying the owner or master anything above and beyond your share of the provisions you will, in effect, have a contractual agreement of passage. In other words, you are a fare paying passenger and, thus, the entire shooting match becomes a commercial venture and, as specified above, you loose your insurance unless the insurer has expressly permitted this in writing.

I have just done an extensive web search and only CL seems to be protecting prospective crew members by informing them of this situation and prohibiting ads for paying crew. That's something we can be justifyably proud of.

Aye // Stephen

Tailwalker 09-11-2009 05:24 PM

THANK YOU, got it..

sundown 09-13-2009 04:42 AM

Those who are arguing that CL should change the posting rules forget that we, as members of the forum, are essentially 'guests'. The folk who are actually writing the checks to pay the bills get to call the shots and make the rules. If you don't like the guidelines make your suggestion: if it is not accepted shut up or ship out, start your own forum.

I suspect that there are more than just a few of us who like the 'crew finder' ; and who are more than a wee bit upset that a limited number of 'posters' can cause so much grief, and waste so much of the mods valuable time and experience.

Lighthouse 09-13-2009 07:13 AM

Quote:

I suspect that there are more than just a few of us who like the 'crew finder'
Thank you - you have made my day.

Tailwalker 09-16-2009 07:41 AM

i like this.... participating in a online school of life https://www.cruiserlog.com/forums/pub...IR#>/smile.gif

idpnd 02-08-2010 11:20 PM

"Any charge above your own food contribution, personal visas and permits, etc., constitutes a "commercial venture" with dramatic and serious insurance and legal implications. Paying for any fuel, dockage, etc., makes you a "paying guest/passenger"

Intimidating as it may be and whilst I accept the crewfinder rules on this forum, following a thorough look at all threads on this subject, I would like to challenge the "cost sharing is highly illegal" school of "legal opinion" that has prevailed simply on the basis of anecdotal information from certain jurisdictions with regards to this subject, and a fair bit of guesstimating.

To my mind, the line that was drawn in this instance seems purely arbitrary without any basis in fact.

The regulation of amateur boating in the EU alone varies to such an extent that I would not dare produce any blanket "legal advice" regarding the legal and insurance implications of cost-sharing arrangements and the like for my own flag state of choice - let alone on a worldwide basis. The quote from France for instance seems to suggest that they want to stop foreign charter companies operating without VAT registration, not siblings/neighbours/acquaintances sharing the petrol or docking costs to get up the coast on their joint holiday. You just wouldn't get anyone prosecuting that. How would the courts to determine if sailing buddies are actually friends or a businessman and his/her customer?

It would be of interest to see some actual test cases from common law jurisdictions (if there are any). I would assume that outcomes would differ widely depending on the jurisdiction and the merits of the case at hand.

JeanneP 02-09-2010 03:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by idpnd (Post 40618)
I would assume that outcomes would differ widely depending on the jurisdiction and the merits of the case at hand.

Of course it would. And?

MMNETSEA 02-09-2010 05:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by idpnd (Post 40618)
It would be of interest to see some actual test cases from common law jurisdictions (if there are any). I would assume that outcomes would differ widely depending on the jurisdiction and the merits of the case at hand.

Sure the hypothesis that rulings made in common law cases would be interesting - however, the Regulations covering the subject are made in terms of Statutory instruments - these made by Governments either individually or collectively, not prescribed by common law.

In the case of the United Kingdom its regulations for example are amended to reflect any new regulations brought into force by the EU. SEE CODE of Practice

Lighthouse 02-09-2010 08:09 AM

It is in the event of an unfortunate accident that these laws/regs will be tested. The insurance company is likely to have a field day on this issue that would probably prompt criminal action as well. Personally, I would not wish to test this with my boat at stake, possibly in a foreign country. The law is the law. IMHO.

As I have stated previously, many cruisers indulge in this practice but it does not mean that it is "legal". "You take your chances"! Just don't upset a local, registered charter operator.

Tailwalker 07-19-2010 11:49 PM

Sleep in the wheel house for $10 lol..

Frederic 03-14-2011 01:36 AM

This is obviously way too much, unless the guy is taking into account his boat amortization in the calculation of the cost.

But when it's about money, people quickly loose common sense: I had an "offer" to deliver my boat from San Diego to France at $700/day for the captain and $100/crew member (2) + fuel + food + marina fees + Panama + unexpected costs + flight tickets for everybody. This is minimum a 3 months trip and the delivery quote then turned out to be more expensive than the boat so that the best option would be to sell it for $1 to a true sea lover and buy a new one in France.


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