Boat For Hard-up Cruiser

[Lotta]

Hello everybody,

I am Lotta frm Denmark. I am young and interested in sailing and want to go cruising but I don't have a lot of money. I want to buy a small boat and saw this website http://www.valkyrien.tk/ of a Norwegian man who sails round thge world in a little boat from england. Would this be a good boat for me to buy or can you give me some other idea?

Thank you for helping me

Lotta

[johnar]

Hello Lotta,

The question you ask is one i have ask myself when i first came here and maybe the same for most. "What boat is right for me". I have found that the only person that could answer it was myself.

I will offer what little advice i can,

Read alot on Cruiserlog you will find that most of your upcoming questions have been ask and you will see the answers.

Some of the things you will need to deside is what type of sailing you will do (where).

What kind of investment are you willing to make into the boat.

What experience do you have sailing.

Do you want a new or used boat.

Where will you dock the boat while on land.

Who will do the repairs.

wow the list just keeps going on.

you may want to try reading a few sites like Yachworld.com for some idea of differant types of boats and another nice site i found was http://www.yachtingworld.com/yw/blog/20070...ne_bunting.html

one last site http://www.sailblogs.com/member_list.php that i found nice reading about others that have sailed the world.

I wish you the best and please read alot here you will find so much that will help you.

John

[maxiswede]

Hi Lotta! Welcome to this board, dear neighbor

I live in Skane, Sweden and my boat is berthed in Falsterbo over the winter. Incidentally I am planning to take off on an open-ended cruise in June next year. Right now I am in the process of selling all my stuff on land, and I am looking for crew for longer nad shorter periods of the cruise.

You could check out my blog at: www.sailblogs.com/member/rodeorm telling the story of the circumnavigation of the Baltic and Botnia last summer...

Back to your question, you obviously want to go on your 'own keel', and why shouldn't you?

I am following the trip of 'Valkyrien' too, and a Leisure 23 is a sturdy little boat for off-shore work.

A couple of others are: Hurley 22, Westerly Nomad, Havsfidra and Storfidra (swedish designs) and of course the folkboat and it's derivates. For example IF-boat and Contessa 26.

These small boats are sturdy and nice, but might need some modifications before ocean-crossing but people have sailed around the world in lesser crafts.

Fair winds

s/y Röde Orm

[Nausikaa]

Hi Lotta and, as maxiswede said, dear neighbor,

I must agree with maxiswede's words regarding most of the boats he mentions. In fact, I am the owner of a Storfidra and will gladly extol its vertures. The British designs he mentioned are all solid seaworthy vessels as are the fidras and many Folkboat deriatives such as the Contessa, I would also like to mention one of your own county's designs, Speckhuggaren, which is a strong and seaworthy boat with, according to my opinion, only one disadvantage - it is not long-keeled.

A few other designs are also worth mentioning, such as the British Vertue (somewhat dated) and Kingfisher as well as the fantastic Flicka. Yes, I know, it means girl in Swedish but it is a great design. The only problem is that it can be difficult to find one in Europe and should you import one you may have difficulties with the European Small Craft Directive.

Good luck with your search and should you need help please feel free to contact me.

Aye // Stephen

[maxiswede]

I definitely agree with Stephen although Spaeckhuggeren are a lot more expensive than the rest of them and the Flicka even more so as far as I know... plus they are probably non-existing outside the US.

Good luck in your search anyway!

[Lotta]

Thank you both for your replies. Iam pleased there are som boats which are not to expnsive.

I must ask also what do you think of boats with two keels what can stand on the beech at low tide. Is these a good alternative?

[haffiman37]

Whatever You find of alternatives. Try look for one with a small diesel inboard, hopefully of newer date. For extended cruising it makes life a bit easier. Less fuel consumption than outboard, safer (no gasoline), charging possibility etc.

I noticed than no one has even mentioned the old Albin Vega. One of the pioners in atlantic cruising.

Another greeting from a x neighbor North of You, but now reciding in Malaysia.

[Nausikaa]

Yes indeed, the Albin Vega is a great boat, as is the Amigo series.

I also agree about the diesel inboard.

[maxiswede]

Lotta,

If you are planning to go single-handed, I'd defintely vote for the Amigo 23 as most boat for your money. Yu could find one for 30-40 thousand SEK and then spend 25 more to outfit, and basically be ready to go.

Go small - go simple - go now!

Some folks keep outfitting and installing all kinds of 'gear' and sadly enough never leaves the dock... but perhaps they enjoy dreaming and working on the boat more than sailing...what do I know

...and about twin keelers.

+ can park on the seabed at low tide

- not as good upwind

[Collingwood]

Originally Posted by maxiswede

...and about twin keelers.

+ can park on the seabed at low tide

- not as good upwind

Good advice but regarding twin keels is the windward ability a problem? Of course it depends upon where Lotta is planning to sail but for me, sailing the North Sea, twin keels are almost essential just because they allow me to "stand upright" when the tide goes out. Also great when the boat is on the hard.

So, back to the upwind ability. If Lotta is planning on sailing arround the world then she will probably be running with the trade winds most of the time so that should not be a major issue.

Lotta - get back to us soon with more info!

[Lotta]

Thank you everbody for the advices.

I am keeping on looking. The Amigo 23 is just little too small. I need something about 25 - 27 feet long. Maybe the Amigo 27 but then it is costing much more. But I did read of a Swedish girl who lived on a Havsfidra all year in the arctic. I will see how much moneys I have in the spring.

Thank you everybody for the help

Lotta

[maxiswede]

Originally Posted by Lotta

Thank you everbody for the advices.

I am keeping on looking. The Amigo 23 is just little too small. I need something about 25 - 27 feet long. Maybe the Amigo 27 but then it is costing much more. But I did read of a Swedish girl who lived on a Havsfidra all year in the arctic. I will see how much moneys I have in the spring.

Thank you everybody for the help

Lotta

If you want to recieve more specific advise, it would be a good idea to tell us how much money you are thinking of investing in the boat. Then remember that you would probably have to put in 50% more to outfit. Things like new sails, windvane/autopilot, anchors and chain, new standing/runnning rigging etc.

If you are planning to go on your own -singlehanding- I think you should consider the Amigo 23 once more. I know of a man who sailed from s. Sweden to Peru and back. Very nice 'little ship'. Of course the 27 is even better, but everything is at least 50% more expensive for a 27-footer compared to a 23- footer. The Valkyrien is a 23 footer too....and Östein had a Bavaria 36 or something which he sold to finance the round-the-world trip. That's the kind of commitment that pays off in my opinion. Unless one has loads of cash of course. ;-)

Do you have the skills and experience to do repairs and outfitting yourself? If not, the costs for labour would increase quite substantially.

Probably the best/cheapest/fastest way to get going on a suitable boat is to buy one from somebody who just returned from a longer cruise and has to sell their boat to re-establish themselves to the shore-based lifestyle again.

I don´t know if they guys at www.runtjorden.com has sold their Albin Vega yet. It¨s in northern Sweden though.

Just some thoughts... hang in there!

[atavist]

Anybody have any experience with the Liberty 28's... I just came across this one and it looks like just about my ideal boat... and perfect for the hard-up cruiser.

http://www.boats.com/listing/boat_details....26man%3dliberty

[redbopeep]

Originally Posted by Lotta

Thank you everbody for the advices.

I am keeping on looking. The Amigo 23 is just little too small. I need something about 25 - 27 feet long. Maybe the Amigo 27 but then it is costing much more. But I did read of a Swedish girl who lived on a Havsfidra all year in the arctic. I will see how much moneys I have in the spring.

Thank you everybody for the help

Lotta

Considering the journey can start whenever/where ever a cruiser wants--you could look for boats that are not local for you but are in good jumping off spots for cruisers. While I don't advocate that you fly halfway around the world to get your boat, if you find a good boat in such a location (that you've had a reputable surveyor check out for you), then go for it. We're from the east coast of the US (Washington, DC) and fancied cruising the Atlantic but found our cruising boat in California and have relocated to CA to do major rebuild on the boat before taking off for our own cruising--starting in the Pacific. For us, the journey of going with the flow has already started

At a marina on Baja, Mexico, I recently met a couple from Florida who purchased a 45' boat (can't recall the make, sorry) in Long Beach, CA. They'd had their boat a total of a month and were sailing it around the world--as it turns out, from California instead of Florida! They, like us, just couldn't find anything closer that fit their specific needs and desires.

There are many stories of all the cruisers who make it from the US mainland to HI and then sell their boats in HI because they were totally freaked out by the whole Pacific cruising experience.

While it is true that you are more likely to find buying and outfitting a boat "cheap" close to home, keep your options open.

Regarding a great inexpensive little boat for bluewater cruising, there were a couple hundred Rawson 30's made in the Pacific Northwest (US). This is a full keel Bill Garden design made from around 1960-1980 of solid fiberglass. If you google Rawson 30, you'll find a yahoo group of owners and a few other websites with them as well as some for sale on Yachtworld. From $6-15 thousand US, they can be purchased (usually on the west coast of US) in fixer-upper status that is structurally sound but would likely require you to put on autopilot and nav equipment as well as more water capacity, additional batteries and other things cruiser usually want. If you find one already "cruise ready" it will usually be between $25-35 thousand US. You would be unlikely to find one anywhere except the US though.

While we're rebuilding our chosen cruising boat (a 54' schooner), we sail on a 1966 Rawson 30 sloop that we purchased in CA for $6,400. We bought it just for knocking about Southern California and Baja Mexico while working on the larger boat project. This little boat is a great example of a boat that one could buy cheaply and fix up a bit and sail 'round the world safely. Out of the 260 or so built, a handful have circumnavigated and documented it. Its clear that whoever owned our Rawson cruised, probably in the late 1980's at the latest because of the vintage of GPS, Autopilot, etc.

On an inexpensive boat, there will always be things that have to be "fixed" on for safety or comfort. On our boat, when we bought it last year we did a number of things. For our coastal cruising comfort and to fix things the surveyor found to be needed, we added battery capacity, small solar panel, additional water tanks, additional fuel filter and raw water filters for the engine, and new lexan in two fixed portlights. Replaced some improper hoses, re-did the cockpit drain hoses, added a siphon break to the exhaust riser, had the propane tanks tested and installed new fittings on them. I think the total cost of all that we did was around $1,200. We've had the boat a year and expect to sail it for another 6-8 months before the larger boat is relaunched and we sell this one. We keep replacing things and you'll find that you will keep replacing things on an older boat, so have it in your budget. For example, we recently replaced the wire/rope main halyard ($150). There are also lots of little things you'll buy if you're on a "simple boat", for example, we have a solar shower ($60) for taking showers on deck.

If we were going to take off around the world cruising on this Rawson, there's other stuff we'd do. For example, it has good jib and storm sail as well as a so-so spinnaker (sans pole, though) but its genoa is pretty much shot so it would require at least one new headsail(s). We'd look for a good condition used genoa that could be purchased for $300-$600. It has an old autopilot that we've never hooked up and we'd have to see if it works or buy a new one. I suspect we'd buy a new autopilot and keep this one as backup. We'd use a GPS on the laptop and have the boat GPS as backup. The sloop rigged jib is on a furler on the forestay on an 18" bowsprit and we'd probably make a modification so that the jibstay is NOT the forestay by adding a forestay back at the stem--this to give us cutter rig option and to make sure we can more easily inspect the forestay. We'd add more ground tackle and we'd be likely to re-bed all the lovely bronze portlights. We'd replace the thu-hull valve that is permanently closed (looks like this boat cruised in one of those locations that didn't allow such a valve between the toilet and the holding tank, thus the bronze valve body was (argh!) permanently secured/bent into the closed position. On the side of cosmetics and ease of use, we'd be likely remove the carpeting and repaint the plywood sole to be kept bare. We'd make a couple repairs to the wooden caprail, revarnish the companionway hatch. The mast and boom need repainting, but we'd take off with them as is and do the painting somewhere along the way, not now. Probably all the stuff we'd do to get it safe/comfortable cruise-ready would take additional $1500-$2000 US. This all assumes that we do all the work ourselves.

So, we've got less than $8K in in now and would likely have less than $11K in it once it were ready to go. We'd expect to have a $3K reserve of money for "things that break or wear out" and the spare parts that we'd buy to take along for the standing and running rigging as well as the engine and misc would probably take another $3K to make us happy.

We already own the tools needed, but if buying them, you'd have to add another $1-$2K. The charts and books that you'd want to have...well...that can add up too.

So, that looks like one would have $11K in boat, $6K in spares and emergency money, $1.5K for tools, and who knows what for charts and provisioning. So, someone with $20-$22K US could cruise fully provisioned as I've just described it on this particular boat.

I'm sure there are many, many similar cruise-worthy boats out there "on the cheap" and I wish you luck in finding one! If you do buy a fixer upper, you'll become very familiar with the boat while fixing it up.

[redbopeep]

PS I didn't talk about comm equipment, because you can spend as much or as little as you want keeping in touch with the world from simple VHF, a SSB, on up. The same with radar. The Rawson doesn't have it and we'd put something on, but it would depend on funds how "fancy" the system we fancied would be We have good safety, life boat equipment, but you can spend quite a bit getting into harness, liferaft or lifeboat, EPIRB, emergency watermaker, etc.

[Aquaria]

Hi Lotta,

a late welcome from the Elbe estuary!

most has been said, nice boats were mentioned, like the Havsfidras, but the performance of the Storfidra is much better than that of the little Havsfidra, which is a VERY nice small sturdy boat, but VERY slow.

And it is already said that the ability to go to windward is not so good on two keels as on the Leisure you were looking at.

The speakhugger is the opposite: fast, good sailing performance and good at sea as some great blue water trips demontrate. Some Danes have been at sea on a speakhugger on different occasions - both, with the racing version and the more spacious family version. You might have already taken a look at "Prins Henrik on the WWW and the seven seas" - it is the second ocean sailing trip,two guys from Copenhagen do on a Spaekhugger-family (and they did two more atlantic crossing on the sport-version earlier, taking their speakhugger nonstop from New York to Falmouth!).

And here is still another boat worth mentioning: The International Folkboat (IFBoat) from Sweden. It has the character of the traditional folkboat (well known and all over in Denmark!) but is a little bigger with more room under deck, built out of fiberglass and many of them have an inboard engine.

Well, now it's winter here in Northern Europe. At least four more months time to look at different boats and to talk to their owners and for more specific advice here one the forum...

Cheers

Uwe

SY AQUARIA

[Lotta]

Thank you everyone for helping.

I am going to try and do some cruising as crew first to get experience. This should help me decide what boat I must get.

Lots of love to all of you.

Lotta from Danmark!

[Frank]

Originally Posted by Nausikaa

A few other designs are also worth mentioning, such as the British Vertue (somewhat dated) ...........

Aye // Stephen

Fizzzz... pop... splutter...harrumph...etc.... 'somewhat dated'????? We aren't talking about kitchen decor here... the Vertue is one of the finest small cruising boats ever designed.. never mind that the design is over 70 years old.... best of them are those with the 'long range cruising' deckhouse same as Icebird... the ones with the small ports instead of those big picture windows which were only put on the poor boat so it would appeal to americans...... fizz pop splutter etc.......

[Nausikaa]

Originally Posted by Frank

Fizzzz... pop... splutter...harrumph...etc.... fizz pop splutter etc.......

Don't know what you have been drinking Frank but I would like some of it

No, I was not being derogatory about the Vertue. It is a fantastic class of boats but not really just out of the box. As you get to know me then you will surely realise that I very much favour traditional craft and solutions which have evolved through experience and, yes, trial and error rather than all bells and whistles stuff built to all possible rules known to man except perhaps that of common sense. The big panorama windows you mentioned being an example of this.

Aye // Stephen

[Frank]

Originally Posted by Nausikaa

. It is a fantastic class of boats but not really just out of the box. As you get to know me then you will surely realise that I very much favour traditional craft and solutions which have evolved through experience and, yes, trial and error rather than all bells and whistles stuff built to all possible rules known to man except perhaps that of common sense. The big panorama windows you mentioned being an example of this.

Aye // Stephen

Yep the big doghouse , which I think first appeared on 'Vertue XXXV' , was in my opinion a backward step..... catering to the market.

Trouble with Vertues these days is mainly the age of the individual boats. Mine was 1960 built in Fremantle with Jarrah below the waterline, Oregon/ Douglas Fir above all on Karri frames .. she will last a 1000 years if looked after...I may have to buy her back one day......

Salud

Frank