Go Back   Cruiser Log World Cruising & Sailing Forums > Cruising Forums > General Cruising Forum
Cruiser Wiki

Join Cruiser Log Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 07-13-2006, 12:06 PM   #1
Ensign
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 4
Send a message via MSN to csiunatc
Default Boat selection Questions - Circumnavigation

Hello,

I've been discussing the possibilities of circumnavigation with the wife for quite some time, and we have finally decided to go forward and start the preparations.

Our boat is not suitable, so my first issue will be to find a new one. I understand that this topic has been covered before, but I haven't found answes to some of my initial questions.

1. Draft.

We are hoping to visit as many places as possible, and of course draft will be an issue.

Is there a draft "limit" some idea of when a yacht becomes just too deep-running to be suitable for making landfalls?

2. Steel vs. Plastic

I am considering mainly a Steel construction, but the corrosion issue is my concern. i understand that it has everything to do with finish, but my main issue relates to the first question, will a steel boat that takes a minor brush need dry-docking and re-finishing immediately?

4. Overhauling (relating to q3.)

How often would you suggest that a boat be dry-docked and refinished on a circumnavigation

3. I've been reading plenty about how size affects harbor and canal-fees, but i have not been able to figure out how much the difference really is. Would a 65 footer cost twice as much as a 32 footer?

4. I've also read about bonds. How high are these when clearing? I also understand that this is depending on country etc. But a basic idea would be nice.

5. I am considering a yacht large enough to house a secondary small diesel generator that will monitor the battery power and run as needed. Would you recommend this or advise against it? How important is the power to you on board? would you "beef up" your batteries/generator capacity if you could?

Thankful for any input.

Erik
__________________

__________________
csiunatc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2006, 06:28 PM   #2
Gord May
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Q1. Draft.

We are hoping to visit as many places as possible, and of course draft will be an issue.

Is there a draft "limit" some idea of when a yacht becomes just too deep-running to be suitable for making landfalls?

A1. 5'-3.25" Draft is ideal, except for making landfalls, where much deeper is better (allows you to make your landfall sooner)

Q2. Steel vs. Plastic

I am considering mainly a Steel construction, but the corrosion issue is my concern. i understand that it has everything to do with finish, but my main issue relates to the first question, will a steel boat that takes a minor brush need dry-docking and re-finishing immediately?

A2. Absolutely!!!

Q4. Overhauling (relating to q3.)

How often would you suggest that a boat be dry-docked and refinished on a circumnavigation

A2. Daily.

Q3. I've been reading plenty about how size affects harbor and canal-fees, but i have not been able to figure out how much the difference really is. Would a 65 footer cost twice as much as a 32 footer?

A3. No - it would cost 4 to 8 times as much.

Q4. (again) I've also read about bonds. How high are these when clearing? I also understand that this is depending on country etc. But a basic idea would be nice.

A5. Bonds are 6 feet high in jurisdictions that use imperial measure, and 1.82 meters in S.I. jurisdictions.

Q5. I am considering a yacht large enough to house a secondary small diesel generator that will monitor the battery power and run as needed. Would you recommend this or advise against it? How important is the power to you on board? would you "beef up" your batteries/generator capacity if you could?

A5a. Yes.

A5b. Very

A5c. Yes
__________________
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2006, 07:45 PM   #3
Commander
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 101
Send a message via MSN to dnelson
Default

1. Ever consider a Cat? Then you can put it right on the beach... (over 2m gets to be a drag... )

2. Glass vs steel... Now that could start a whole debate.. Delivered a stainless steel boat that beat both.. (on price too)

4. Had to scrub the bottom every month on a delivery from Panama to Brisbane - but just used SCUBA to do it.

3. 15m seem to be a cut off point - over 15 gets very pricy.

4. Never had to post a bond - if you are the registered owner of a vessel registered in your country - and you aren't going to leave the boat somewhere - you shouldn't need to pay a bond for the boat. (French polonesia does require an immigration bond...)

5. I would swear by a small diesel generator - regardless of the size of boat...

Hey Gord - got a good chuckle.
dnelson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2006, 08:30 PM   #4
Moderator
 
JeanneP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,098
Default

1. Watermelon's draft was 7'2". A few places were a bit touchy, but we were only kept out of two bays in 17 years. We even went to Andros Island in the Bahamas, where we were told that 5' draft was absolutely the maximum to try. (oh, the bar across the Rio Dulce, Guatemala would probably have kept us out). Our boat sailed wonderfully, and I never regretted the extra draft.

2. I just don't like steel for so many reasons, and I don't think GRP is as fragile as the steel aficionados claim. We've seen many a plastic boat on a reef without a hole in it. I like dry lockers, something I understand that you can't have with a steel boat

4. Haulouts: We hauled our boat about once every 3 years. Of course, we slathered LOTS of bottom paint on, and Peter dove on the bottom and cleaned it often over those 3 years. We built a home-made Hookah to help Peter do the work - see photos at Watermelon Gear - http://www.fototime.com/inv/19FAEC458BFF5BC That's a truck tire inflator, 12V, with air accumulator bottles because volume isn't great enough otherwise.

3. 65 feet is a huge boat. Everything about it would cost, as Gord says, 4 times as much. Not just harbor and canal fees (not a lot of places charge harbor fees, and usually the only canals you go through are Panama and Suez), but just everyday maintenance, sails, haulouts, yikes. And that's a really big boat for two people to sail, handle, maintain.

5. Bonds. French Polynesia requires that you post a bond sufficient to repatriate you to your home country. Either money or a return ticket that is valid for your entire stay. Other than that, I don't recall having to post a bond anywhere else.

6. Make sure the generator is water-cooled, diesel fueled. If you have the room, yeah, I guess a generator is nice to have, but I'd put off installing one until you see just what your needs will be.
__________________
In 1986 we went cruising for a few years. After 20 years and 50+ countries and several oceans, we are STILL "cruising for a few years".

SY WATERMELON |
MV WATERMELON (New) | Cruiser's Dictionary, free ebook

= Cruiser's Dictionary, North America,
JeanneP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2006, 11:25 PM   #5
Ensign
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 4
Send a message via MSN to csiunatc
Default

Thank you all for the responses. Gord - made me laugh, but i think your a little jaded. (time to buy a mountain cabin?)

I'm looking at designs for boats, and Bruce Roberts keeps coming up as good passage makers.

My situation is a little different than most I think. Not only am I getting ready to retire fairly young. But if i did decide to build, i will have plenty of spare hands to help at a very low cost. So building is not something that discourages me.

Right now The Roberts 470 in Wood/Epoxy is competing with the voyager 495 in steel.

http://www.bruceroberts.com/public/HTML/de...description.htm

http://www.bruceroberts.com/public/HTML/V495.htm

Any thoughts on either of these boats?

The thought of building is actually in many ways more appealing to me than to buy a turn-key boat. Getting it "just right" which im sure is the initial thought of many would be builders who haven't sailed anything but their backyard. Still, I think I can finish the boat inside of a year - Two on the outside.

JeanneP - I was reading your Q/A and stumbled across the Jordan Series Drogue. After checking out their "official" website im a little baffled. Is it really THAT good. If it does half of what they say, I think im going to carry 19 of them.....

Some more q's.

Master Cabin - Large boats seem to place the master cabin in the stern, is this more or less comfortable for sleeping during passage than a cabin close to the bow.

Single handing - Will a boat this size (45 - 50') set up for single handed sailing be manageable by a small framed woman when she is on watch?

SSB - Being that one design is a wood-epoxy will i need a mesh inlay in the deck/superst. to make it perform?

I've seen many boats carrying microwaves... comfortable yes, but is this something that is worth the battery drain in your oppinion?

(advanced cruisers don't need to reply)

I'll be back to bug you with more questions.
__________________
csiunatc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2006, 01:18 AM   #6
Ensign
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 4
Send a message via MSN to csiunatc
Default

Clarification..... I was a little tired.

Master Cabin - I understand that the placement rearwards means more comfort. But is this something that should be "priority" enough to eliminate a boat that does not have a stern cabin. In other words, is is possible to get a good nights sleep in a bow cabin on an ocean passage?.
__________________
csiunatc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2006, 06:05 AM   #7
Admiral
 
Auzzee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Home Port: Darwin
Vessel Name: Sandettie
Posts: 1,727
Default

Hi. I built a Bruce Roberts designed centre cockpit sloop in the early 90's. First, I wanted a centre cockpit because it allows a degree of sanctuary by providing a totally segregated aft cabin of good size.

Second, I do not mind being wet; I do not mind being cold; but being wet and cold is plain bloody miserable, and there is a degree of protection in even a smallish centre cockpit vessel. It was a good seaboat with a full length keel which I felt was necessary for such a beamy boat. Large volume boats such as many of the Roberts designs may tend to skip sideways on a beam reach in stronger winds unless there is a lot of boat still grabbing hard under the water.

Third, many people lose the dream whilst building their boat in stages, year after interminable year. I took six months off work and put in 80 hour weeks. From the first job to completion and launch took me 3 days longer than one full year. My boat sailed southeast Asia and down the wild west coast of Oz to Perth where it continues to give its current owner great pleasure.

I have since moved upward along the size scale to a centre cockpit cutter/sloop with a LWL of 49'6". It is no more difficult to manoeuvre than the 36'. It is however rigged specifically with short handed sailing in mind. It must be sailed the same way...ie. Reef early even when in doubt....and I often reef at sunset just in case.

Finally, It is wise to remember that the best ally of the small or large framed woman or man on watch, is the hairy or not so hairy beast snugged up down below. Few sailing instruction manuals will advise on the most often issued order from the on-watch crew. "Hey s***head, get your a*** up on deck....NOW"...at least that;s the one I hear mostly. David.
__________________
"if at first you don't succeed....Redefine success"!


Auzzee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2006, 09:30 AM   #8
Moderator
 
JeanneP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,098
Default

Aft cabin vs. bow cabin. When seas are calm, you can get enough rest regardless. When the going gets rough, and you need all your strength to keep alert and handle the boat, it's too bouncy in the forward cabin. The aft cabin is usually so calm that you will almost always get a decent rest. SV Watermelon was a French boat built for the bareboat charter trade, and had two aft cabins - not quarter berths - a bit larger, but not huge. We were beating our brains out to weather in rapidly deteriorating weather, winds gusting to 50 knots when we blew out our mainsail (triple-reefed, but we were foolish and should have had the storm sails up). Peter was asleep and the movement, noise and nastiness didn't wake him - I had to yell LOUD!

Fishing boats have known for years the advantage of trailing a drogue. You have rudder control with a drogue to control speed and keep you from surfing down a wave and either broaching or pitchpoling. A series drogue just improves on the idea.

Personally, I don't think a microwave is worth the effort. Ship's batteries can't run it, and why would you want to run a generator JUST to cook something in the microwave? But I'm not on your boat, so you have to do what is best for you.

My knowledge is tapped out. I hope others will answer the rest.
__________________
In 1986 we went cruising for a few years. After 20 years and 50+ countries and several oceans, we are STILL "cruising for a few years".

SY WATERMELON |
MV WATERMELON (New) | Cruiser's Dictionary, free ebook

= Cruiser's Dictionary, North America,
JeanneP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2006, 10:14 PM   #9
Rear Admiral
 
Swagman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 349
Default

You asked :

Master Cabin - Large boats seem to place the master cabin in the stern, is this more or less comfortable for sleeping during passage than a cabin close to the bow.

IMHO : Neither a large foreward nor large aft cabin are much good in a seaway. Best place fo off-whach partner is in the middle of the boat. Ideally wedged into what used to be called a 'pilot berth' close enough to be woken by the deck watch if needed.

When at anchor - you'll normally get more air through a foreward cabin, but an aft cabin will usually give more space for its length, simply due to hulls being noarmally fatter aft than forward.

You asked:

Single handing - Will a boat this size (45 - 50') set up for single handed sailing be manageable by a small framed woman when she is on watch?

Response:

Yes certainly.

You asked:

SSB - Being that one design is a wood-epoxy will i need a mesh inlay in the deck/superst. to make it perform?

Response:

Again yes.

You asked:

I've seen many boats carrying microwaves... comfortable yes, but is this something that is worth the battery drain in your oppinion?

Response:

Not in my opinion but that's only because we don't microwave much food even at home. The upside of a microwave is you are using electrical power (presumably via an inverter) so that can always be self generated by the ycaht. A Gaz tank once empty dictates a visit ashore to refill.

All IMHO of course

JOHN
__________________
Boring blog at http://www.yotblog.com/swagman
Swagman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2006, 11:05 PM   #10
Rear Admiral
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 437
Default

Erik,

... and once we've selected the right boat for you, maybe we can select the right wife for you, too.

Opinions abound - but the choice will have to be entirely your's.

Happy Hunting

Kirk
__________________
Gallivanters is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2006, 05:15 PM   #11
Ensign
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 4
Send a message via MSN to csiunatc
Default

Umm.... did I ever say it wasn't?

It's pretty simple. I've done a lot of blue water sailing, but nothing extending over more than a couple of days, and rarely any round the clock sailing at all. I've for instance never used a drogue.

I'm just looking for the oppinions of those who have the experience i lack. a lot of the "cruising" boats out there seem to be mainly eye candy. Nowhere have I for instance seen a boat manufacturer make a claim that their boat is too deep-running to be practical for explorations around pacific atolls.

And the wife is already selected, which is why i mentioned the small-frame "problem." She is 5' even and 105lbs. A very capable sailor, but neither of us is used to a larger boat. Ours is 26'.

So yes, the selection will be ours, we understand that, thank you for stating the obvious in lieu of real advice, atleast you are contributing what you can.
__________________
csiunatc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2006, 10:18 PM   #12
Rear Admiral
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 437
Default

Hi Erik,

Sorry if I came off sounding "cocky". It's just sooooo hard to find that perfect boat and it always boils down to pure compromise.

My wife, too, is small of stacture, but she's risen to the task beautifully and can single hand our boat well enough to come find me as long as she thinks I'm worthy of the effort.

I know this sounds "sexist" but we generally divide everything into "blue" & "pink" catagoties.

Blue jobs include: sail handling, anchor handling, engine work, going aloft, plumbing, toilets, heavy lifting, etc.

Pink jobs are heroic household tasks such as: cooking, cleaning, provisions & meal planning, budgets, organizing everything, etc.

It's always All-Hands-on-Deck when reefing, anchoring or anything which required us to function as a synchronized crew. It's comforting to come up on deck and realize that Cath had shaken out a reef or gybed while I was asleep and did it so well it didn't even wake me.

Voyage Planning & Storm Tactics are was always worked out together. We, too, have never used a drogue during our crossing of three oceans.

Our last boat was a 37 ft pilothouse sloop and main bunk was just aft of the mast which provided a most comfortable place to sleep.

We haul out about every 2 ~ 3 years as necessary. However - we haul every summer here in St Thomas because our marina offers two weeks on the hard, at no cost, for marina tennants. And because we're gearing-up our new (to us) boat for ocean crossings. The wish list keeps getting shorter.

This time around we're investing in a large bank of solar panels, large storage battery bank & properly sized inverter instead of a generator. We're gonna go with a high capacity watermaker, below deck autopilot, roller furling headsail, full batten'd main with external cars, removable inner forestay, Spectra running backs (to tie off to mast cleats when not in use), radar, oversized anchor windlass, go-fast dinghy, ham license, on-deck shower, more fishing lures, multi-system TeeVee, spare video camera and netting all around to catch the antics of our new child.

I'm certainly no expert, but... in my opinion - the perfect boat for circumnavigating with two people aboard would be around 35 to 45 ft in length, cutter rigged with a draft of 5 to 7 ft. The ideal boat would have a strong skeg mounted rudder behind a robust fin keel a simple sail plan. And it would have a bed long enough to stretch out in and wide enough to sleep comfortably with a lover while at anchor.

As mentioned earlier - a mid-ship pilot berth is nice while underway. A good self steering system and depth sounder is a must, an electric windlass is worth it's weight in gold deckhands, radar acts as an alert extra person on watch with you and can answer many questions your tired eyes cannot, a spare GPS is prudent, chart plotters are full of info at a glance but should never be a substitute for paper charts & pencil.

I've never considered a wood, steel or fero cement hull... but that's just me... however I've met all sorts of nice people, all around the world, in all manner of craft.

I believe most people out there start with the most boat they can afford and then go with that once they're comfortable with the vessel, their abilities and themselves. Few people are ever really comfortable with their finances... but don't let that stop them from fulfilling their own personal dreams.

I hope you find the perfect boat for you. I'm sure it's out there at the right price. And when you get a chance - come visit. We live in the Caribbean at the moment and you can catch us back in the Pacific in a year or two.

Carry On... and Happy Hunting,

Kirk, Cath & Stuart ~~~ _/) ~~~ s/v Gallivanter ~~~ St Thomas
__________________
Gallivanters is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2006, 07:55 PM   #13
Ensign
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 15
Default

One more opinion - you'll probably get as many different opinions as you ask people. Most of them will prove to be valid, since sailing is a very individual way of life:

1. Draft.

Anythinng around 6 feet should be ok - you won't find many places where you can't enter with this draft.

2. Steel vs. Plastic

Corosion is a problem that will probably remain unsolved. Rust is ugly but not very dangerous, unless you let it go for a rather long time. Electrolysis is more of a problem, but with good anodes it is easily kept under controll. Try for corten steel or even stainless - expensive but it won't rust (though its a bitch with electrolysis). The best would be a steel hull and aluminium or stainless superstructure - rust is always more present above the waterline.

#Plastic ist - just plastic. It does not speak to you, or me, at least. On the other hand, plastic boeats don't rust or rot, are imune to teredo worms and never fall prey to electrolysis - so you would have much less work in upkeeping your boat.

4. Overhauling (relating to q3.)

Depends very much on where you are sailing. If sge lies for a monzh or so in still waters in the tropics you will be surprised by the plentifull sealife and vegetaion you find around and below the waterline.

3. As others have stated, 65 feet is a lot of ship to handle. I think you would be happier with a somewhat smaller vessel - for two people 40 to 45 feet is ample, if you want to carry friends, guests or kids go for 50 feet. And yes - 65 feet is much more expensive in upkeeping - harbour fees are not so bad as you usually don't go into marinas but stay at anchor.

4. I've also read about bonds. Never happened to me - so no information on this point.

5. I am considering a yacht large enough to house a secondary small diesel generator that will monitor the battery power and run as needed. Would you recommend this or advise against it?

Power on board makes your life bearable. I had a boat with no fridge and - alas - no cold beer. I don't like to be reminded of these two years I spent in Carrebean.

BUT - unless you have a very large Engine - more than 100 horses (which you won't need), I would strongly advise against a generator. It's just an other machine that will need spare parts, space will put on board extra weight and there is nothing it can do your main engine can't do as well. On the contrary - if you have a fridge and freezer on board you will have to charge your batteries for about an hour a day. That means running the main engine and that means a longer life for it. Diesel engines are rarely run to death, they die by not being used enough.So you don't onlöy save one engine, you also do a lot of good for the other by NOT buying a generator.

Hope you find the right boat

cheers besemo
__________________
besemo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2006, 07:59 PM   #14
Ensign
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 15
Default

Some more answers or rather opinions:

Master Cabin - Large boats seem to place the master cabin in the stern, is this more or less comfortable for sleeping during passage than a cabin close to the bow.

An aft cabin is by far the most comfortableplace on board - many designs - among them also som Bruce Roberts - allow to put the salon in the aft cabin, wich is a very good solution. You should then put your master cabin midships. But I had a rather small vessel of 28 feet and always slept in the bow and that was OK, too.

Single handing - Will a boat this size (45 - 50') set up for single handed sailing be manageable by a small framed woman when she is on watch?

Yes - all you need is good sized winches and a clear understanding, that no manouvre that requires the watch to leave the cockpit is executed while alone on deck. This should be a strict law with NO exceptions.

SSB - Being that one design is a wood-epoxy will i need a mesh inlay in the deck/superst. to make it perform?

No idea

I've seen many boats carrying microwaves... comfortable yes, but is this something that is worth the battery drain in your oppinion?

(advanced cruisers don't need to reply)

Even as an advanced cruiser (whatever the qualification) a very short reply: No!
__________________

__________________
besemo is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
navigation


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Sail Questions On A Cruising Boat... duckwheat General Cruising Forum 31 11-15-2007 10:01 PM
Help With Boat Selection rigamarole General Cruising Forum 16 10-16-2007 03:36 PM
Best Boat(s) For Circumnavigation Magor General Cruising Forum 20 10-02-2007 02:07 AM
A few boat questions Bajamas General Cruising Forum 9 03-24-2006 09:56 PM
circumnavigation questions Elliott General Cruising Forum 5 02-15-2006 10:44 AM

Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

RV & Travel Trailer Communities

Our RV & Travel Trailer sites encompasses virtually all types of Recreational Vehicles, from brand-specific to general RV communities.

» More about our RV Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:08 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.0