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Old 07-08-2007, 12:19 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Harbor_Pilot View Post
.........

* Those that do not like the rules, have the option of finding another board with differant rules; or paying for commercial advertising; which probably is not excessive. They could always start there own board and make their own rules as they see fit.

I do not understand why some insist and persist on violating the rules; even when ask in a response post, or by e-mail to comply. I wonder how they get along in life, in another country, in another culture, wtih foreign customs and immigration, and their spouse.

Jeff
Those that do not like/accept the rules probably don't give a damn about abiding by them and will probably always chance their arm if allowed. If you close the board down, however, you are effectively keeping the whole class behind because some kid farted in class and wouldn't own up.

If you want to keep the bad guys at bay, put in the controls that make it at least a little more difficult for them to place inappropriate or unacceptable ads. As previously suggested, replacing free form text entry by a process that requires simple alternative answers to a few standard questions could be an answer but I'm sure that there are other approaches.

Thereafter, it's very much up to anyone interested in crewing to chase the opportunity up - heaven knows, we've all had enough warnings about the pitfalls of paying to crew.

It might also prove successful in putting an end to this thread which seems to have rolled back and forwards over the same arguments time and again even though the management position is absolutely clear - quite possibly because the naughty children simply delight in getting up teachers nose and teacher is entertaining their arguments! Maybe, it's just time to let them have the last (written) word and apply the rules!

See ya!
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Old 07-08-2007, 12:33 AM   #72
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olá guys!

hi yidaki, welcome in here. excellent post, for sure, but nonsense, man... you seem to be newer than me but you're not, an advise: try to read before posting, it's smarter. i did post an ad at cruiserlog, you can read it and be ashame, as i ask for 3 euro/day for food and drinks. by far, you are welcome to post an interest at my ad, yidaki. ; )

and lighthouse, please turn on the light, you as admin should know i posted in the "proper way". and read from the begining again this thread, aren't you still convinced how the more people aboard, the more expenses??? several cruisers agree on this.

i just wanted to congratulate for renewing that philosophy, or am i the only one finding in here ads which you call "commercial ventures"???

before any other allusion to me, please read what i write, i do it for that purpose. I POSTED PROPER AD, meanwhile I CONSIDER THAT THOSE "COMMERCIAL VENTURES" AREN'T COMMERCIAL VENTURES, JUST SUPPORTED VENTURES.

i actually thought you would discuss this point of supporting, which i consider very interesting. please, read tomandpatt's post. from there, you cannot get an idea of they're running a business and getting incomes, can you? i think it's truely fair that arrangement between that cluster of cruisers and that cluster of crew (which you call guests/passengers).

thank for your time.

capitäo albertinho.
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Old 07-10-2007, 04:23 AM   #73
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I could see why a person would pay to get onto a boat. To get some experiance. I do not see any problem with this. I know I would pay to go on a trip ONCE. I would think working for free would be better. Just for a trip and experiance a time or two.

If a guy can earn an extra 70k a year with his help paying him to go places. More power to them. He found a nitch. NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. As long as he can get the suckers, he has it made. The pool of suckers has to drie up some time. Also, you get what you pay for.

WHY any one with experiance would pay. That I do not understand. If they are experianced they should be paid, BUT if they are that low to pay to work at something they could profit from. They are holding them selves back. Were dose it end? The paying help dose effect the pay of the experiance worker. That is a bad thing.

Now, in my area of work. We have experianced crew that take hops. They used to get paid to do this as they could help on board. NOT ANY MORE. They get two choices. Pay a very cheap fair and fly as a guest. That or they can fly free as long as the pilot takes revenue from his side. Now, if you are flying free on my ride. You are going to help out or you are not getting on.

Ever been on a plne and been bumped? They say they over booked the plane. Crew and family are NEVER counted. Many times the over book is a crew member or their family willing to pay a dirt cheap price to fly. I can see where in sailing this would be a issue.

Maybe its a issue of Novice and professional sailers?
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Old 07-14-2007, 03:39 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by albertinho View Post
olá guys!

and lighthouse, please turn on the light, you as admin should know i posted in the "proper way". and read from the begining again this thread, aren't you still convinced how the more people aboard, the more expenses??? several cruisers agree on this.
ok im a little confused. i have never crewed on a boat (though im working on it) and i know nothing about the lifestyle but ive been reading this post with interest. im sure its true, the more people aboard, the more expenses. obviously, 5 people are going to require more food than one person. but if the point being made is more crew, greater expense, shouldnt the crew only be charged for the amount that they add on to the expense? obviously as lighthouse pointed out, expenses like fuel and docking arent going to change depending on how many crew are aboard. so im confused. why would crew get charged for that?
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Old 07-15-2007, 04:13 AM   #75
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? obviously as lighthouse pointed out, expenses like fuel and docking arent going to change depending on how many crew are aboard. so im confused. why would crew get charged for that?
This is the most exciting thread going and I have been reading with interest.

First of all I get it. The Cruiser Log admins have the right to set rules. Follow the rules on postings or leave - easy! It has nothing to do with the debate about paid or unpaid crew or sharing expenses.

Now here is my opinion on the issue.

I am a licensed US private pilot. In order to carry pasengers for hire I need advanced ratings. However, as a private pilot I can share the expenses of a trip. That includes, fuel, oil, parking fees etc. and just about anything I can squeeze in except the mortgage on the plane and my hangar rent. This gets tested over and over in court.

However boats are fundamentally unregulated in most parts of the world.

The question in my mind is if I have a boat and it "deteriorates" based on the number of people using the head, stove, sinks, bunks etc. then those costs are fair game. Why would I put more wear and tear on my boat by bringing aboard more people? I am not running a charity.

So I think that fuel, docking/mooring, food and in fact all the variable costs are fair game for cost sharing. The decision to dock at a marina often becomes a group decision so the group should share the costs. Alone I may opt to stay on the hook somewhere.

I would draw the line at "repairs" and any boat mortgage.

If you call this a commercial venture, great. I call it meeting cool people with a like mind who don't mind paying a full and equal share of the cruising costs.

Here are a couple of other scenarios -

Untrained Crew / Crew Training - If I charge anything over and above the sharing costs, then this is clearly a commercial venture. If I am making a passage and decide to take on untrained crew any training I offer would be completely free. However, what if I decide that in excchange that person does all the galley work? In the airplane analaogy the FAA rules that I am receiving pay in kind as we are not "sharing" and I lose my ticket.

Trained Crew / Repositioning - What if I have a passage to make and I am incapable of single handing the boat? If I advertise for crew to complete the compliment, that crew in my mind is professional, should be certified as such and I should be paying them. How much to pay is purely between me and how much that professional is willing to accept for his/her services.

Oh, here's the other thing. No one is going to get rich picking people up on the internet and bringing them aboard their boats. Boats are just too damn expensive and break down way too much.

If I posted - SV Big and Wide is looking for crew to sail between Hawaii and Singapore - $6,000 each. It's commercial

If I posted - SV Big and Wide is looking for crew to sail between Hawaii and Singapore - Full cost sharing - details on request. It's not commercial

2 cents mode off....
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Old 07-15-2007, 04:54 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by ExCalif View Post
1. First of all I get it. The Cruiser Log admins have the right to set rules. Follow the rules on postings or leave - easy! It has nothing to do with the debate about paid or unpaid crew or sharing expenses.

2. However boats are fundamentally unregulated in most parts of the world.

3. The question in my mind is if I have a boat and it "deteriorates" based on the number of people using the head, stove, sinks, bunks etc. then those costs are fair game. Why would I put more wear and tear on my boat by bringing aboard more people? I am not running a charity.

So I think that fuel, docking/mooring, food and in fact all the variable costs are fair game for cost sharing. The decision to dock at a marina often becomes a group decision so the group should share the costs. Alone I may opt to stay on the hook somewhere.

4. I would draw the line at "repairs" and any boat mortgage.

5.If you call this a commercial venture, great. I call it meeting cool people with a like mind who don't mind paying a full and equal share of the cruising costs.

6.Here are a couple of other scenarios -

6a-.Untrained Crew / Crew Training - If I charge anything over and above the sharing costs, then this is clearly a commercial venture. If I am making a passage and decide to take on untrained crew any training I offer would be completely free. However, what if I decide that in excchange that person does all the galley work? In the airplane analaogy the FAA rules that I am receiving pay in kind as we are not "sharing" and I lose my ticket.

6b. Trained Crew / Repositioning - What if I have a passage to make and I am incapable of single handing the boat? If I advertise for crew to complete the compliment, that crew in my mind is professional, should be certified as such and I should be paying them. How much to pay is purely between me and how much that professional is willing to accept for his/her services.

6c. Oh, here's the other thing. No one is going to get rich picking people up on the internet and bringing them aboard their boats. Boats are just too damn expensive and break down way too much.

6d.If I posted - SV Big and Wide is looking for crew to sail between Hawaii and Singapore - $6,000 each. It's commercial

6e- If I posted - SV Big and Wide is looking for crew to sail between Hawaii and Singapore - Full cost sharing - details on request. It's not commercial
ExCalif,

Taking your points as I have numbered them above:

1. You are spot on. Play the game according to the rules or get off the pitch!

2. Wrong. Shipping (and that includes boating) is very much regulated but the rules are not applied in many places. When laws are enforced it is often reactive enforcement. In other words, something has gone wrong and then authorities are going to blame someone!

3. Sure, more people means more wear and tear. But the opposite is also true. A larger crew gives opportunities for better and increased maintenance and, paradoxaly, less wear and tear as things can be done in time whereas a person on his own or a couple may not have the time to get everything done "right now".

4. Why? What is the fundamental difference?

5. Calling it a commercial venture is not our doing. Again, we do not make the law. But this brings us back to point 1 where you state "The Cruiser Log admins have the right to set rules."

6a. Your comparisson with the airline industry is spot on! "In the airplane analaogy the FAA rules that I am receiving pay in kind as we are not "sharing". Maybe we should also point out that a very large proportion of air laws originate from naval and shipping law too.

6b. Again, spot on, although some trade unionists may disagree about rates of pay.

6c. Not really true, although there is a lot of truth in this. Some are managing to finance their lifestyles very nicely by picking up passangers on the internet.

6d. Correct, if the cost income is more than the cost of victualing

6e. Correct, although we would ask for details regarding the specific costs to ensure that the costs involved were only those which could be atributed to the extra crew.

You are correct when you stte that there are two issues here.

The first issue is the debate on the morality of cost sharing. This is an open issue and as such can be debated.

The second issue is what can be posted on Crew Finder. Here there should be no debate. To quote Lighthouse, "If you are generating INCOME then you must pay for advertising and not abuse free facilities such as these." It is a simple as that.

Aye

Stephen
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Old 07-16-2007, 02:48 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Nausikaa View Post
2. Wrong. Shipping (and that includes boating) is very much regulated but the rules are not applied in many places. When laws are enforced it is often reactive enforcement. In other words, something has gone wrong and then authorities are going to blame someone!

3. Sure, more people means more wear and tear. But the opposite is also true. A larger crew gives opportunities for better and increased maintenance and, paradoxaly, less wear and tear as things can be done in time whereas a person on his own or a couple may not have the time to get everything done "right now".

4. Why? What is the fundamental difference?

6c. Not really true, although there is a lot of truth in this. Some are managing to finance their lifestyles very nicely by picking up passangers on the internet.

6e. Correct, although we would ask for details regarding the specific costs to ensure that the costs involved were only those which could be atributed to the extra crew.
2. Regulated? I can set up a business just about anywhere to carry passengers without a license. Maybe not the US but all over Asia NP. I know at least 10 boats in Singpapore and Malaysia & Thailanc doing "charters." Maybe the better word is enforcement. If there were enforcement every post here asking for income would be a lead for the prosecutor. Maritime regulators just don't care about this niche.

3. In the airplane analogy if I ask someone to change the oil on my plane in exchange for a ride it is income and a commercial venture. Are you suggesting that unpaid crew can "work" jobs on the passage to pay their way and it's OK?

4. Same as 3. If a chain plate breaks and I assign an unpaid crew to fix it, that's commercial income in my mind because I would have had to pay for it or do it my self and standing rigging, hull etc. are "fixzed" costs. It is not an operating cost of the boat. Fuel, oil, food and moorings are variable costs. Probably wear and tear on heads, berths and galleys is as well but I couldn't logically break that out.

6c. I'd love to hear details of one who is not running a "commercial charter" business. If you are having people join your boat I doubt you are getting rich. The obverse of the 10 boats "chartering" above I know of 5 boats at least that are for sale because the ends aren't meeting. Here is probably an indicator. If a boat was a website and directs people to it and indicates how to apply for a berth and explains they will be paying. They are pretty well organized as a commercial venture. If SV Big and Wide posts that they are a cruising couple and would welcome some adders and please email me it's a pretty disorganized thing. I will accept it's a judgement call and on this site is yours to make.

5 and 6e. You state "we" (CL) don't make the law but you are placing yourself in the position of interpreting the law. Common law is not tested on an internet board, it is tested in court. In 6e you request the operating details of "my" boat so you can determine if I am splitting the costs in accordance with your interpretation of the law. You are basically taking the postion that whether this is income generating or not is your province to decide.

Summary: "If you are generating INCOME then you must pay for advertising and not abuse free facilities such as these." The crux of the matter. So far I see that you consider paying for food and shore parties OK. Doing work on the boat is OK but sharing moorings and fuel is not OK. Maybe if you had a bulletized list of what you consider sharing it would clarify things better.

Don't get me wrong and it bears restating. The rules for posting here, no matter what forum or topic, are your rules to set. There are lots of places to post for crew with different interpretations of the "law" or in fact no interpretation at all.
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Old 07-16-2007, 09:50 AM   #78
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Hi ExCalif



Quote:
Summary: "If you are generating INCOME then you must pay for advertising and not abuse free facilities such as these." The crux of the matter.
Quote:
The rules for posting here, no matter what forum or topic, are your rules to set. There are lots of places to post for crew with different interpretations of the "law" or in fact no interpretation at all.
Please note that we are not attempting to be the "crew police" in any way. We simply say that if ANY income is generated (beyond contribution for food and personal expenses) then PLEASE note that "There are lots of places to post for crew with different interpretations of the 'law' or in fact no interpretation at all".

Many yachts are charging "crew" all over the world - it is no concern of ours. They must just not use THIS crewfinder to find their "crew" - our "guidelines" for this forum are pretty clear. Good luck to them all!

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Old 07-16-2007, 02:03 PM   #79
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So, Let me undertand this. The place is for Crew looking to crew on other cruiser's boats with no money involved, either way? Is that rigth?

It seems that ther are crew who want to go crusiing at the expense of others. Cruisers don't go cruising to make money, it is for pleasure. They do it for the love of cruising. It isn't free. And, Anyone that thinks that adding crew doesn't add to the operational cost is a fool. I seems to me that, there people here that WANT to go cruising but can not afford it. They have a attitude that they should be able to at no cost. Charteryacht get thousands of $$$ per week to take people out for a week.

So, If one want to go cruising, they can Buy a boat, Charter a boat, get a job as profesional crew( which requires licensing, but then thats not cruising), or SHARE the expenses with someone else. WHERE IS THE PROBLEM???? OH, I see there is a group of freeloaders that want to do it for FREE, there are NO FREE LUNCHES.

I think that, in the spirit of Cruising any and all postings should be allowed. I just rubbs me the wrong way to see members WHINE!

Fair Winds, Stan
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Old 07-16-2007, 03:14 PM   #80
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It isn't free. And, Anyone that thinks that adding crew doesn't add to the operational cost is a fool.
This is what this is all about. CREW - taken aboard to perform certain CREW duties. If so, this is the cost of the cruising lifestyle - the bigger the boat, the more crew assistance required to live the lifestyle. And yes, the more people aboard does increase the operating costs. If a cruiser can't afford it he should not go cruising.

Should "CREW" perform duties aboard with no pay or compensation?

Should they then still pay for the privilege to work on a yacht?


OR

Is "CREW" taken aboard as a "passenger"? In which case, the cruiser should pay to advertise for such "crew" - "crew" that contribute towards covering the costs of the voyage. Many cruisers are doing this and in my mind taking advantage of a "supply and demand" situation but, it is not my call.

A simple choice - use this crewfinder to find crew or use other facilities (there are many) to find paying "crew"/guests/passengers.
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Old 07-17-2007, 06:45 AM   #81
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We simply say that if ANY income is generated (beyond contribution for food and personal expenses) then PLEASE note that "There are lots of places to post for crew with different interpretations of the 'law' or in fact no interpretation at all".
I don't have a dog in this fight really! I have no issue with me or anyone else following the rules of the forum. It's your choice to allow or dissallow "any" post you want.

But -

You (moderators) state at times in this thread that "no income can be generated." Then the above post defines food and personal expenses as "acceptable" income. Note - you define these two elements as income. So in effect you really are creating definitions. But again - That's 100% OK. It's your board.

Just my personal opinion but you should shut down your crew finder forum. Every other board I have been to only limits the "real" commercial stuff.

I think it is this inconsistency (between boards) that is driving everyone nuts and this thread will go on forever.

If I post for crew they will definitely pay for all the variable costs including fuel and moorings, they will be expected to crew on the boat and do their share of chores, they will also pitch in for their food. The discussion of "personal items" is completely moot. I would never share or pool people's personal stuff.

Based on that paragraph I certainly wouldn't post here as it would be in violation of your forum's rules.
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Old 07-17-2007, 09:00 AM   #82
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I believe that we would all agree that this topic has more than run it's course and many points of debate are now simply being repeated. I don't think that anything new can be added.

The administrators of this forum have clearly stated the guidelines that should be followed by posters on the Crewfinder and members have stated their views about the decision to implement these "guidelines" - some for, and some against the reasoning behind the decision.

It has been good, healthy discussion and I'm sure that we have all learned something from the debate on this topic. Thank you all for your contributions.

TOPIC CLOSED.

I will open another thread with a poll and ask all to contribute.

Thank you

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