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12-07-2006, 05:24 PM
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#1
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Ensign
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 3
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Suggestions On Buying A Vessel
Greetings,
I am new to this site, thank you all for the info you have provided thus far.
I hope to purchase a sail boat within the next few months and plan to sail it around the globe. There will be four of us and the budget for the boat will be about 200K USD, 250 Max. I am looking for saftey and some room (42-50ft), not necessarily speed in my blue water vessel. Any suggestions on makes or models?
clarkso13
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12-07-2006, 06:55 PM
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#2
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Guest
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Welcome aboard!
I'm sure some helpful information will be forthcoming shortly.
Good luck with your plans.
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12-07-2006, 10:14 PM
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#3
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Admiral
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,619
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Hi,
Let me also wish you welcome aboard.
I hope you have a successful circumnavigation but what worries me is your question. Not the question in itself but the fact that you are asking it. Generally speaking, if you have been sailing for a while and have gained the knowledge and experience necessary for such a voyage as that which you are planning, you will already have a fairly clear idea of the type of vessel you want for this voyage. You may not know the specific maufacturer but you should have some idea as to whether you want a cutter or a sloop rig (or any other such as a junk rig maybe), whether the boat should have a long keel or not, should it be a cat or a monohull, etc.? Because you mention none of these issues, I wonder if you have sufficient experience?
What I would respectfully suggest is this:
1. If you have the knowledge and experience, tell us your thoughts that we may be able to assist with some specific manufacturer' models. If you are weighing the advantages of, for example, long keel versus fin keel, let us know and we can provide out thoughts on the subject.
2. If you haven not yet the knowledge and experience, get some! Do some training courses and get some sailing time in. This should not just be daytime in coastal waters but well off-shore and at night too. Once you have done a number of passages you will then have got to 1 above and can open that discussion.
Whichever may be the case, I wish you well with your plans and many pleasant milse of voyaging.
Stephen
Yacht NAUSIKAA
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12-08-2006, 12:13 AM
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#4
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Commander
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 178
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Sean, I too hope you won't be offended by Stephen's comment, especially because he is quite correct in making it. Here are two suggestions I'd like to make that I think will be useful to you:
1. Experience really does have no equal in preparing someone for the kind of ambitious, life-altering experience you seek...but often, inexperienced would-be cruisers don't know where to get it. Consider signing up for a program that is specially designed to introduce real offshore passagemaking and cruising skills, and is conducted by experienced trainers. E.g. visit www.mahina.com and look at the kind of program John & Amanda offer. To those who would say 'But that's a lot of money...', my response is that it might save you $200K. It will also help you spend $200K much more wisely. Either way, it will be an investment in your end goal that is immediate and directly relevant. (While at mahina.com, don't forget to read http://www.mahina.com/cruise.html which is John's attempt to answer your specific Q).
2. Get a good, solid reference and work your way through it -thoughtfuly, diligently. There are LOTS of books out there, but a few of them are extraordinarily useful for someone with your goals. The one I would put at the top of the list right now is Beth Leonard's Voyager's Handbook, the 2nd edition. It's the best single reference I know of on how to do what you want, including how to pick a boat that matches both your goals and your pocketbook.
If you follow up on these two suggestions, you will have some very clear opinions - of your own - on the answer to your question. Good luck to you.
Jack
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12-08-2006, 05:24 AM
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#5
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Ensign
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 3
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Thank you for your responses and candor. I wanted to keep the question fairly open-ended to get answers like the ones I received. I will read the information that was suggested and keep in touch. My experience is sufficient for this type of voyage, however all the research I can do won't hurt.
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12-09-2006, 01:42 PM
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#6
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Ensign
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 7
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Hello
Sounds good to me. Rather it's a life long dream borne out of expierence
or a new idea. This type of undertaking takes time and a good deal of
common sense. It took me nearly five years to plan my circumnav. I had
not sailed a vessel previously. I learned nearly everything I needed to know by reading. I did not take any classes, courses or lessons. I purchased a 32ft. pocket cruser, sailed coastwise for 16 months and departed for three years. It was for sure a life altering event. I've been home now for nearly four years, back to sailing coastwise. I miss
the deep water. Best of luck
Fair winds
D
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12-14-2006, 11:24 AM
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#7
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Lieutenant
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 97
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Get as big as you can manage in the worst condition you can think of. In normal situations, size equals comfort and water/fuel carrying capacity. In circumnavigation, you probably won't spend too much time in a marina, so size = marina costs do not matter. In the budget, allow plenty for repairing things that you and the surveyor did not spot, and plenty for converting a coast hopper to a circumnavigator, unless you buy the latter - ground tackle, watermaker or bigger tanks, maybe better rigging....
Steelfan
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12-17-2006, 07:43 PM
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#8
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Lieutenant
Join Date: Jan 2005
Home Port: No such thing
Vessel Name: Charisma
Posts: 85
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Hi,
Here is the procedure I used to select and buy my current boat, it worked very well both in terms of getting what I wanted and budget.
I prepared a spreadsheet with some 400 qualifying points divided in sections such as rigging type, hull constructions, seaworthiness, engine, galley lay out, heads,sail wardrobe etc. Each entry had a score from 0 to 4, 0 being unacceptable, 4 being ideal and good working condition. The total score was 4 X 400 = 1600. I set my standard at 1200, anything less, forget about it, anything above qualified for an economic evaluation and a survey done by a professional. It was then a matter of estimating the cost of repair and add it to the asking price. If over budget, try to negotiate with the seller or forget about. If under budget (still try to negotiate), go for it.
Preparing the spreadsheet, remember it was a qualifier, not a survey for seaworthiness although there was a bit of that as well, should take anywhere between 1 day and 1 week depending on your experience, your age, plans for the future and the sort of sailing you are planning on.
I ended up with a Vagabond 47, still under budget 2 years later and it is exactly the boat I needed, minus the volvo engine
Best of luck with your hunt.
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Francis
S/Y Charisma
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12-17-2006, 08:33 PM
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#9
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Admiral
Join Date: Jan 2005
Home Port: Darwin
Vessel Name: Sandettie
Posts: 1,917
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I so completely respect those who are able to look at the topic of boat buying in a totally objective manner. Writing tables, formulations, lists and data filled spreadsheets leave me humbled and feeling somewhat overawed.
I followed my heart in buying my boat. The only criteria were it had to have beautiful lines and, in my opinion, be capable of sailing in any part of the world.
I was lucky to have selected what is for me, the perfect vessel. While I support the analytical approach and wish sometimes I had such patience, one should not abandon the dictates of the heart in selecting anything of value.
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" if at first you don't succeed....Redefine success"!
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12-17-2006, 09:15 PM
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#10
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Lieutenant
Join Date: Jan 2005
Home Port: No such thing
Vessel Name: Charisma
Posts: 85
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Auzze,
You are right, my post should have started with : if you like the boat, then go for the survey.
Cheers,
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Francis
S/Y Charisma
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12-18-2006, 06:44 AM
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#11
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Commander
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 159
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Don't discount speed. On a 1200 mile passage doing 200 miles a day will see you reach harbor in 6 days, while doing 120 miles a day will take you 10 days. Weather windows for 6 days are predictable. 10 days and you're on your own. You may even have to steer around weather systems that pop up, adding even more time to your journey. On short passages it may mean arriving during daylight or arriving at night. In the South Pacific that means spending the night offshore as you never want to enter a lagoon or island in the dark. A 1 knot difference in speed makes a huge difference. Everyone wants to go a little faster, even me on a catamaran. Speed is not the most critical parameter but don't discount it. It is important. JMO
Steelfan made a good point about repairing things and buying equipment for cruising. This will cost far more then most people realize. He also made a good point about size. If you are light weight travellers a catamaran might be the thing for you. Other factors here but I don't want this to get into a cat vs monohull discussion. Size matters; comfort, safety, even determining how fast a monohull can go.
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12-19-2006, 03:23 PM
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#12
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Ensign
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 7
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Hello to all
Interesting subject, it seems to drift a litte. Does speed mater? Open Ocean sailing seems to have a way of making things equal or at least ironic.
I sat and planned the passage from Maritius to Richards Bay, SA.
With some of the crews and all the skippers from six boats. Some had weather faxs, some were hams all had SSB. We discussed the usual, Radio sceds, fax frequences, ham nets time, all these folks were well seasoned circumnavagators. We talked about the ever present H pressure system over Madagascar and the S. Equatorial current just to the south and to avoid the island by at least a hundred NM.
All of the other vessels were faster than mine. On this passage of about 1100 hundred miles or so(if memory serves) they were set to arrive about 50 or so nm ahead of me. They were fairly well grouped and close to Richards Bay, when the glass dropped dramatically, and the wind veered to the SW, piped up to sixth Knots and the port of Richards Bays closed to traffic. They were trapped inside the 200 meter line, the one place NO ONE wanted to be. It blew to force 10 maybe 11. I was hove to 35. NM
east, with sea room. The faster vessels had it much worse. Two 50ft cats came to grief on the beach. A 38ft wood mono hull sailing from Durban(a mere 80 NM to the south)was rollod over, broke up and sank.
This storm, a cut off low was unpredicted, it blew for three days.
I've heard it said and belive that there is no such thing as a slow boat only slow sails.
Size does matter, as does safty and comfort, I,am not so sure about speed.
Cheers
D
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12-20-2006, 01:42 AM
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#13
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Rear Admiral
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 349
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Hi Welcome Clark,
Hope you like the site - it works for me! Good luck in finding your dream yacht and setting off.
Hey Dumpster - you said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by name='Converted Post'
Originally posted by Dumpster
Hello to all
Interesting subject, it seems to drift a litte. Does speed mater? Open Ocean sailing seems to have a way of making things equal or at least ironic.
I sat and planned the passage from Maritius to Richards Bay, SA.
With some of the crews and all the skippers from six boats. Some had weather faxs, some were hams all had SSB. We discussed the usual, Radio sceds, fax frequences, ham nets time, all these folks were well seasoned circumnavagators. We talked about the ever present H pressure system over Madagascar and the S. Equatorial current just to the south and to avoid the island by at least a hundred NM.
All of the other vessels were faster than mine. On this passage of about 1100 hundred miles or so(if memory serves) they were set to arrive about 50 or so nm ahead of me. They were fairly well grouped and close to Richards Bay, when the glass dropped dramatically, and the wind veered to the SW, piped up to sixth Knots and the port of Richards Bays closed to traffic. They were trapped inside the 200 meter line, the one place NO ONE wanted to be. It blew to force 10 maybe 11. I was hove to 35. NM
east, with sea room. The faster vessels had it much worse. Two 50ft cats came to grief on the beach. A 38ft wood mono hull sailing from Durban(a mere 80 NM to the south)was rollod over, broke up and sank.
This storm, a cut off low was unpredicted, it blew for three days.
I've heard it said and belive that there is no such thing as a slow boat only slow sails.
Size does matter, as does safty and comfort, I,am not so sure about speed.
Cheers
D
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Understand and respect the views - but if those other yachts were just that liitle bit faster still and had got in before the harbour was closed and left you to sit it out - do you think you might have changed your view or written something different?
I actually suspect not.
We all have our own view on whats important and what's not and its good to have such differences.
I do believe its best to have a ability to choose when and where you want to sail and being on a faster boat widens those choices - provided one does not them compromise on build and seakeeping qualities.
As you say , that is of course not just a good fast boat, but with good fast sails, and finally a tolerable fast skipper.....
Merry Xmas
JOHN
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01-02-2007, 01:17 AM
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#14
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Ensign
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by name='Converted Post'
Originally posted by Francis
Hi,
Here is the procedure I used to select and buy my current boat, it worked very well both in terms of getting what I wanted and budget.
I prepared a spreadsheet with some 400 qualifying points divided in sections such as rigging type, hull constructions, seaworthiness, engine, galley lay out, heads,sail wardrobe etc. Each entry had a score from 0 to 4, 0 being unacceptable, 4 being ideal and good working condition. The total score was 4 X 400 = 1600. I set my standard at 1200, anything less, forget about it, anything above qualified for an economic evaluation and a survey done by a professional. It was then a matter of estimating the cost of repair and add it to the asking price. If over budget, try to negotiate with the seller or forget about. If under budget (still try to negotiate), go for it.
Preparing the spreadsheet, remember it was a qualifier, not a survey for seaworthiness although there was a bit of that as well, should take anywhere between 1 day and 1 week depending on your experience, your age, plans for the future and the sort of sailing you are planning on.
I ended up with a Vagabond 47, still under budget 2 years later and it is exactly the boat I needed, minus the volvo engine
Best of luck with your hunt.
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Ahoy there Francis,
We're new to the group. Please see post "Five Years Left". I'm actually very interested in your spreadsheet since we also are looking for an objective procedure for purchasing a vessel. Would you mind sharing the spreadsheet that you authored for my use? I believe it would be a perfect start. Would you object if we had to alter it to fit our needs... "Offshore Sailing Catamaran"? I would be most grateful for any and all assistance you can provide. Happy New Year.
Fair winds,
Juan & Belkis
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01-07-2007, 01:26 PM
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#15
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Ensign
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 10
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I have come to the conclusion that the perfect used boat to pre-conceived specifications is obtainable. You do your homework, research, shop around and view hundreds of boats and at the end of the day the boat you end up with falls well short of your specified requirements. To give an example years ago I was looking for a small pocket cruiser, full keel with a reputation for seaworthiness ect. What I ended up buying was an ex IOR ¼ Ton fin keel racer with heaps of weather helm. But the boat was fun to sail and had all the cruising accruements so at the time it was the most suitable boat for me. I used the boat for enjoyable coastal cruising for three years and then sold it within 1 week of placing it on the market. Sure I brought that boat as a knee-jerk reaction too not finding what the boat I was shopping for, but least I was out on the water living life. Things like aesthetics’, re-sale value, reputation ect are very hard to put a quantitative value on. Like Auzzee I am very impressed with Francis’s approach with the spreadsheet. I sold my last boat 10 months ago and have been on the look out for my next boat, which will be my retirement dream. This major purchase will be a lot more considered. I also use spreadsheets to appraise prospective boats but use a much simpler format of coloured cells.
The important items are highlighted yellow, and then rated in the adjacent cell from red (poor), light orange (fair), lime (good) & sea green (excellent). One boat I looked at recently is a very sound boat, but an overview of the spreadsheet red and orange areas means that the boat at the current asking price is not to be considered. Lots of red means lots of rectification (money!). I simply told the vendor politely although interested, I would need to spend X dollars and on that basis I could not justify the full asking price. On consideration of my calculations he immediately dropped his price 10K, but the price will need to drop further before I place an offer. Experience tells me that when the right boat (not perfect) comes along I will jump in head over heals. [^]
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01-07-2007, 10:56 PM
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#16
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Ensign
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by name='Converted Post'
Originally posted by lonesome boatman
........ The important items are highlighted yellow, and then rated in the adjacent cell from red (poor), light orange (fair), lime (good) & sea green (excellent). One boat I looked at recently is a very sound boat, but an overview of the spreadsheet red and orange areas means that the boat at the current asking price is not to be considered. Lots of red means lots of rectification (money!). I simply told the vendor politely although interested, I would need to spend X dollars and on that basis I could not justify the full asking price. On consideration of my calculations he immediately dropped his price 10K, but the price will need to drop further before I place an offer. Experience tells me that when the right boat (not perfect) comes along I will jump in head over heals. [^]
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Hello Lonesome...
I agree completely. Like yourself, this will be "thee" final one so we will do just as you will and, proceed with caution.
We kind of jumped at the 26 footer we have now after some research since we were not really enthused with the possibility of purchasing a one way ticket to permanent residence in Davey Jones locker, but, I can't really say that it was a jerk-knee reaction...maybe it can be qualified as a...as a twitch.
I am also color coding the spreadsheet that was provided and we're putting together some strategies for the purchase negotiations.
Fair winds,
J
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01-13-2007, 03:59 AM
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#17
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Ensign
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4
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I am going through a similar process but have little desire to do a circumnavigation of this lovely orb....having done way too much time living in exotic locations while working for a living. The thought of hassling with petty bureaucrats, crime, and shoddy amenities suggests sticking to the East Coast, the Islands, Gulf Coast and ultimately a trip west through the Canal and north to Alaska with a permanent abode somewhere around the Puget Sound.
I don't have a spread sheet but as I find boats that I am interested in...be it for the price, name, model, equipment, layout....whatever....I print out the ad and make notes about the plus items and the negative items. As I go through this process I continue to arrange the printouts in a "Most desired, descending order based upon it's comparative value when compared to others.
This process follows about two years of study and contemplation of my interests for places to cruise, how many folks I might trick into joining me,sailing ability of the boat, liveability of the boat for various climates, quality of the construction of the boat.
Just as politics is a process requiring compromise...I see selecting the boat as much the same. Finding one big enough but not too big to be singlehanded...everything requires setting some sort of value from "Mandatory and neccesary" to "Undesirable and not needed". The key is in placing the correct priority on those factors.Having been a professional aviator....I approach selecting a boat much as I would an aircraft....balanced cost against performance and safety with safety being the trump card. The final, unavoidable issue is finding the right boat and being able to purchase the thing within your budget.
I am sure every cruiser has gone through a similar process when deciding which boat to buy.
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01-15-2007, 03:45 AM
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#18
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Ensign
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 3
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Greetings,
Are there any feelings on the later model Tayana Vancouver 42, " " 46, or the Tayana 47/48. I understand they are a bit slower (shorter waterline/heavier, etc) than many of the other blue water boats out there, but otherwise seem to be of pretty good quality. I like the Island Packets, but it looks like I can get a great boat for a bit less money with the Tayana.
Best Regards,
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01-15-2007, 10:02 PM
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#19
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Commander
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 159
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Island Packets ... I've heard that the tank in the bilge (water and fuel) eventually corrodes and leaks. The repair is extremely expensive ($20k?). No access to the tanks is provided. I don't remember the details but had a friend buy one last year with this problem...Island Packet reportedly told him it was a known deficiency.
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A`ohe `ulu e loa`a i ka pokole o ka lou.
No breadfruit can be reached when the picking stick is too short.
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