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Old 06-01-2011, 05:40 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by stealthmode View Post

MMNETSEA, I've asked for more on RUBY, I'll see what comes back. Not a lot of navigation equip but hey, what do I expect for the money. Would need autohelm of sone kind plus a couple of other things i'm sure. If that main sail turns out to be bright screaming red I'd be gutted.

I would like to find 3-4 to go and see so i'll keep looking till I have a few to check out. I may miss one here and there but this will be okay. I'm now getting a bit closer to what I need instead of yes, but, I'm seeing Yes, and
Keep in mind, The one piece of navigation equipment which is usually to be found in good order is the Binnacle Compass. Electronics will include a VHF radio, the only other that you NEED is a GPS.

Expect other electronics in the budget price range to need replacing or upgrading. Sure, once you are ready for long distance cruising that is the time to add an autopilot.

Remember the 4 major components - they must all pass muster and work in sync.
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Old 06-01-2011, 06:28 PM   #30
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Keep in mind, The one piece of navigation equipment which is usually to be found in good order is the Binnacle Compass. Electronics will include a VHF radio, the only other that you NEED is a GPS.

Expect other electronics in the budget price range to need replacing or upgrading. Sure, once you are ready for long distance cruising that is the time to add an autopilot.

Remember the 4 major components - they must all pass muster and work in sync.
MMNETSEA, The nav equipment i'll get to but you have said what is needed so i'll speak on the 4 parts of safety that makes it all work together. I have the 4 main parts now imprinted in my mind and yet if you asked me a week ago I'd have had to go looking at what they actually were and how critical they are in the order you have said. I'd have given a list with them in maybe, but not as you have defined in 4 main items.

1. The Hull. Any weakness or bad design, (after learning about this from you MMNETSEA on one wooden sailboat I liked) or serious knock etc. Then osmosis, unfortunately with osmosis is the simple fact when it shows up the damage is well done and requires serious work. I know about osmosis although not covered by me on boats but the science and detection and cure are almost the same. Our good old atmosphere is so good at finding imperfections in any compound man made. A freshly painted hull before I got to her would also have me digging deeper and asking some very serious questions. I'd even scrape it off to satisfy myself and then re-paint it and I'd pay the owner for this even though I never bought their boat. I'd also be looking to see if she suddenly had a new coat of gel/epoxy, plus a few other things to look for. I know people are scrupulous and would just put a fibre-glass patch and epoxy resin over a serious defect or hole and sand her flush and paint the hull back to looking new. You could even tap the hull and not know underneath this had been done.

2. Engine and box, to me no problem even if I had to strip her out and re-build her. (My brother has a fair collection and it would only really cost me blood and sweat to repair. I also have access to some of the UK's best engine machine shops and powder-coating companies. ( He even joked he'd rip it out and plant an electric unit in its place and give me piece of mind of never worrying about fuel in the middle of a calm sea for weeks on end).

Worth about $10,000 for the kit but obsolete to him which he salvaged a few years ago and never did anything with.

3. The standing rigging, hidden things like the actual strength of fitting and how she is secured. Rotten and rusty screws, bolts etc which corroded, fittings to the actual mast, no gaping holes or even signs of stress fractures or movement, warping, buckling, worn pulleys, drive gear and everything that makes her stay upright on the yacht. All ropes, lines etc are all very good as are the actual fixings from the top of the mast to the yacht. This is a must on mountaineering and climbing and something I will never trust to another human being to verify if they are safe and fine. Chaffed, frayed, nicked, knotted, mouldy and damp plus a host of other things I’m looking over before I suddenly lean backwards and absail down sheer cliff faces etc.

Alloy doesn't rust but by god it corrodes, and when you see pitted bits etc, you have to grind / gorge back to see how deep the weakness of the part goes as it has then become brittle and weak.

4. The sails, as in how old are they? As time goes by they naturally deteriorate with oxidation, just about everything oxidizes through time with light and moisture.

What set is on the boat? Enough to cover various types of wind, gales etc. How they are actually attached. No mould or fungus creeping in. How many times if any they have been repaired / stitched and how good a repair, also why did it need stitching in the first place?

I'm sure other things will spring to mind.

I also know I have never gone delving in marine engines much but as a mechanic & engineer this is just a change to me from what I'm used to and would soon become easy.

I'll know the second an engine fires how good she is. Then to check her pressures and bearing wear etc, piston wear, bore wear, valve gear etc, again all in a day’s work.

An engine over-heating is a no-no as the water capillaries are normally the culprit becoming rotted that they are ready to pop so this is also something I’ll be looking at.

An off-balance or shudder or any fault in running bearings etc, say from the crankshaft to the box to the prop, I’d be looking for, cutlass bearing if fitted, how old? Has the prop/shaft being balanced recently?

Again the list goes on and since I’m an annoying perfectionist, through time I’d end up replacing tons of bits but this is also what I call fun and peace of mind and would be part of the joy to me of sailing.

All the above will also be talked over and confirmed, debated or agreed with the surveyor.

I will not be using a surveyor attached to any boat-yard that has the boat for sale. This is just me and not a problem for others to worry about I should think.

Please keep it coming and any and all things yet for me to be looking for.

Sorry for the slight science behind what I'd be looking for and the lengthy post. I tried to compress is as much as I could.
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Old 06-01-2011, 07:15 PM   #31
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I'm currently now scouring Alabama and everything I can find through the internet and phone are beginning to come in.

I'm going town to town and coast to coast (USA) on the east side from NY down to the caribbean/mexico and half way up the west coast.

Capt Dingy,

The Allied Princess, I have now read a few good stories/articles on her but the cheapest I've found is in the $35,000 at 36' (1977) of any worth or way more than this if I own a bank.

I also looked at a Pearson 323 (1981) but simply because she is only 32' in size I left this one out.

I also found an Allied Seabreeze at 34.6' in Sodus Bay, NY at $25,000, well equiped and ready almost to go (subject to any survey etc) this is now on my list to read-up further on as again I like the look of her.

I realise that every foot less than 34' will give me less room but also slightly more bobbing about on the waves.

I have decided on a min of this end, even 33' i'll leave out for now, as there seems to be plenty to choose from already in the 34' - 38' range.

I'm still waiting on the owner of RUBY to get back to me and will leave another message later to see what is happening.

I see a few Pearsons' 35' with shoal draft but this is not what I want, such a pity as a couple are good prices I lookad at.
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Old 06-01-2011, 11:48 PM   #32
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This is unfortunately just out of my range, such a pity but at least I know the sort of limit i'm in

35' Allied Princess 36 Ketch
  • Year: 1978
  • Current Price: US$ 37,500
  • Located In Port Isabel, TX
A Morgan 382 is nice also but out of reach I suspect.

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Old 06-02-2011, 12:23 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by stealthmode View Post

I'm currently now scouring Alabama and everything I can find through the internet and phone are beginning to come in.

I'm going town to town and coast to coast (USA) on the east side from NY down to the caribbean/mexico and half way up the west coast.

Capt Dingy,

The Allied Princess, I have now read a few good stories/articles on her but the cheapest I've found is in the $35,000 at 36' (1977) of any worth or way more than this if I own a bank.

I also looked at a Pearson 323 (1981) but simply because she is only 32' in size I left this one out.

I also found an Allied Seabreeze at 34.6' in Sodus Bay, NY at $25,000, well equiped and ready almost to go (subject to any survey etc) this is now on my list to read-up further on as again I like the look of her.

I realise that every foot less than 34' will give me less room but also slightly more bobbing about on the waves.

I have decided on a min of this end, even 33' i'll leave out for now, as there seems to be plenty to choose from already in the 34' - 38' range.

I'm still waiting on the owner of RUBY to get back to me and will leave another message later to see what is happening.

I see a few Pearsons' 35' with shoal draft but this is not what I want, such a pity as a couple are good prices I lookad at.
Stealth, This 'learning curve' you are taking us on, is just GREAT ! The vast amount of information you are sharing with all of us, is - I'm sure - not only interesting but also extensive & very helpful to many using these 'forums'. Thanks again. I for one didn't know there were that many yachts out-there for such reasonable prices & some in not bad nic. Using 'google' I went a bit side ways & looked up Allied yachts in general. They made a 39' ketch with lots of practicle advantages. Bigger is not always better however in general terms the longer the lwl the smoother (as in sea-kindly) the ride, & somewhat quicker (possibly advantageous when trying to get 'out-of-the-way' of threatening storms). I note that the 39' has moderate draft for close in-shore & reef areas with the advantage of a 'swing-keel' keel - great for going to windward when off-shore going long distances. While I'm not personally a 'fan' of Ketch rigs there can be something in their favour. The yacht was in Florida @ $40K. As the economy in the USA is a tad weak - it's possible - using Bob's (Cptn Dinghy) negotiating principles - that an offer around $33K would pull it up. That's a lot of boat for that amount of money & it might have some appeal if it's within your price structure. I did a lot of sailing in an S&S 34' which I'd always thought had every bit enough room for 2 or 3 people for long distance cruising although far to cramped for 6 people when racing. S&S 34's are a tad to expensive but the point is that a 34'er can have enough room to be comfortable in. IMHO

Thanks again for sharing all your vast homework with us all. We're all enjoying the trip with you. Caio, 'jj-geri-hat-trick' Keep it coming, eh?
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Old 06-02-2011, 02:55 AM   #34
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There was an Allied Princess for sale here last year (before I started to look seriously) it was listed for $38K US and sold for $18K! These types of "deals" are far more frequent than one can imagine and Silver Raven is quite right about not being bashful in your negotiations. If your ideal price is $X, and the listing price is $X+20%, then the boat is within your range. Start with an offer of $x-30% and see where you get. If this all sounds like basic old school negotiations, I apologize. But sometimes, you just never know what offer will get the deal done.

The caution on various sizes within the same builder can be quite different. One little trick I have used is to identify some of the designers that seem to have more of what I like. By looking up the designer on Sailboatdata.com I can find many makes and models that I find very appealing. Also, sometimes the difference between a 33 and 38 foot boat is more about proportions and the interior layout can make a world of difference.

A few designers that are easy for me to like: WilliamTripp; William Shaw and Ted Hood. These three designers (and their groups) have dozens of boats between them that fit into the 33-40ft range. Just for reference, it is another search option. I am sure there are many many other good designers.

Enjoying the journey!
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Old 06-02-2011, 03:05 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by stealthmode View Post

MMNETSEA, The nav equipment i'll get to but you have said what is needed so i'll speak on the 4 parts of safety that makes it all work together. I have the 4 main parts now imprinted in my mind and yet if you asked me a week ago I'd have had to go looking at what they actually were and how critical they are in the order you have said.

I will not be using a surveyor attached to any boat-yard that has the boat for sale. This is just me and not a problem for others to worry about I should think.

Please keep it coming and any and all things yet for me to be looking for.

Sorry for the slight science behind what I'd be looking for and the lengthy post. I tried to compress is as much as I could.
Minor corrections

"the 4 parts of safety" should read 'the 4 major components'

Osmosis is not caused by "Our good old atmosphere" but by

water penetrating the outer skin of the hull, Osmotic blisters can be seen easily and when there is only a few, these may opened and repaired. Serious water incursion into the hull by osmosis can be revealed by the skilled use of a moisture meter. If delamination has occurred then more aggressive means are used to ascertain the extent by an experienced surveyor.

When it comes to the Component - Engine and Gearbox, the marine diesel engine and its transmission from say 1980 onwards are complex machines - in many ways totally unlike those found in land vehicles. The Yanmar, the Volvo, the Westerbeke, and a dozen others all require complex fuel storage, filtration and delivery systems. The gearing requires special reduction, also enabling freewheeling under sail. In many boats the engine also may drive a compressor for the boats freezer, The engine may also provide additional electricity, may also drive an hydraulic pump for winches and windlass. The cooling system alone needs specialized knowledge.

When the engine stops on a lee-shore or when 500 miles out, having the best land-based equipped machine shop will not be of much use.

The major component "Standing Rigging" has Three common alloy parts that require special and frequent attention :-

#1 The Chain Plates - especially that part of the plate that is not seen. #2 The Stainless Steel 1 x 19 wire. #3 The end fittings for the stainless steel wire. The wire is usually regarded as “marine grade” stainless steel but is not resistant to warm sea water. Warm chloride environments can cause pitting and crevice corrosion. Grade 316 is also subject to stress corrosion cracking above around 60°C. Generally it is accepted practice that standing rigging is replaced after 10 years.

"The sails they naturally deteriorate with oxidation" - Oxidation is not recognized as damaging to sails.

Ultraviolet Light is just one culprit. The major reason that a sail becomes inefficient is 'Stretch' and out of shape, also the stitching may come apart.

When sail cloth is made it is shrunk several times and is coated with various polymers. A boat that has had little use and where the sails are protected from the sun may have sails that will give many years good use.
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Old 06-02-2011, 09:38 AM   #36
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This is interesting to watch and learn a bit from though we are still in the planning and saving stages of the plan (possibly also prep for building but that will have to wait a bit to see viability). I second CaptDinghy's point on the price asked might not be the price accepted. I know of boats here on the Firth of Forth that ad or have an asking price a good bit higher then what the seller will accept if directly offered (looking at one now as a first boat to allow family sailing as we save/build something bigger). It is like marina fees here in Scotland, you go to the ones that are the "big" names and you pay BIG prices; go to the smaller harbours and you can get it cheap as chips even inside the the breakwater. The issue comes down to being able to do the foot work. Best of luck and you are very blessed to have a brother with type of knowledge to help you.

On the engine side of things, I am sure there is a bit of difference between land and marine in the modern diesel; but they are both complicated beasts when you deal with any of the heavy equipment types (I consider marine diesels to fall in this area). I have worked on Military diesels (the first type of Diesels that I ever worked on) and also Large vehicle engines (Think Freightliner) and they have a lot attached to them (modern rig's eat electricity in huge 12v chunks). The biggest problem I have ever had helping work on marine is getting around the beast and the darn exhaust systems (those are a pain, simple in many ways but a big pain). If I am missing something please let me know.

Keep the discussion going though please .

Good luck and best wishes on the hunt.

Michael

PS again thanks to everyone adding such wonderful information.
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Old 06-02-2011, 10:09 PM   #37
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Using 'google' I went a bit side ways & looked up Allied yachts in general. They made a 39' ketch with lots of practicle advantages. Bigger is not always better however in general terms the longer the lwl the smoother (as in sea-kindly) the ride, & somewhat quicker (possibly advantageous when trying to get 'out-of-the-way' of threatening storms). I note that the 39' has moderate draft for close in-shore & reef areas with the advantage of a 'swing-keel'
Hi Silver Raven,

Am I right in now thinking that the allied range are all ketchs?

I see an Allied Mistress 38.8' 1979 MKIII, extensive re-build/re-fit, if I see a nice example for a low price and it checks out okay i'd give it a go as in I would gladly sail one.

I'm trying to keep to 38' approx and not over as more is certainly easier in the open but I'm thinking what I can handle on my own till I learn. 34' to 38' and yes i'll certainly be running from storms as much as possible until I can become one with my boat and at ease. As I'm going along I am thinking now that I way as well take a very experienced sailor along until they are fine with me being left on my own to do everything. A few cruises across the Atlantic from USA to the UK and vice-versa will be fine. No shortage of people already wanting to help on this part.

I know some of the places i'm certainly going to sail to and they involve a spell of severe storm challange but i'll cross this bridge when I come to her.

I'm not scared of hitting storms as long as for the first couple I have some experience and a sailor along with me who is capable of taking the boat through with-out any serious issues and makes me do it with them only watching and jumping in if they feel i'm struggling.

The swing keel is a nice option if it's there but not a problem if not. A tender with an outboard will be fine for exploring.
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Old 06-03-2011, 12:15 AM   #38
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There was an Allied Princess for sale here last year (before I started to look seriously) it was listed for $38K US and sold for $18K! These types of "deals" are far more frequent than one can imagine and Silver Raven is quite right about not being bashful in your negotiations. If your ideal price is $X, and the listing price is $X+20%, then the boat is within your range. Start with an offer of $x-30% and see where you get. If this all sounds like basic old school negotiations, I apologize. But sometimes, you just never know what offer will get the deal done.

Enjoying the journey!
Not basic and very good to know for some who are a bit scared to haggle or beat down a price.

I factored in this by doubling my budget price range for a boat but the actual real money I want to spend on the boat is just over half.

Once I know a bit more and have a list of great boats that are ideal for what I need and want I'll soon open the bidding with an insult.
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Old 06-03-2011, 01:32 AM   #39
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This is interesting to watch and learn a bit from though we are still in the planning and saving stages of the plan (possibly also prep for building but that will have to wait a bit to see viability). I second CaptDinghy's point on the price asked might not be the price accepted. I know of boats here on the Firth of Forth that ad or have an asking price a good bit higher then what the seller will accept if directly offered (looking at one now as a first boat to allow family sailing as we save/build something bigger). It is like marina fees here in Scotland, you go to the ones that are the "big" names and you pay BIG prices; go to the smaller harbours and you can get it cheap as chips even inside the the breakwater. The issue comes down to being able to do the foot work. Best of luck and you are very blessed to have a brother with type of knowledge to help you.

On the engine side of things, I am sure there is a bit of difference between land and marine in the modern diesel; but they are both complicated beasts when you deal with any of the heavy equipment types (I consider marine diesels to fall in this area). I have worked on Military diesels (the first type of Diesels that I ever worked on) and also Large vehicle engines (Think Freightliner) and they have a lot attached to them (modern rig's eat electricity in huge 12v chunks). The biggest problem I have ever had helping work on marine is getting around the beast and the darn exhaust systems (those are a pain, simple in many ways but a big pain). If I am missing something please let me know.

Keep the discussion going though please .

Good luck and best wishes on the hunt.

Michael

PS again thanks to everyone adding such wonderful information.
Hi Chiroeurope,

Thanks for adding to this.

Been a while since I was up your way, a few months now.

I used to stay in Edinburgh for a few years and down at South Queensferry. In London at present but from up North of Inverness originally.

My daughter has just moved outside Edinburgh from the other side of the bridge.

I'm a bit of a jack of all trades and a master of a few. I got lazy the last few years but it looks like it's time to put it back to use as much as I can.

Marine will soon come to me, but to read of the good or bad bits to watch out for is a big bonus to get me started and others.
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Old 06-03-2011, 10:08 PM   #40
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busy this end the last few days but a few more have popped up to consider.

36' Pearson 367 Cutter
  • Boat Name: SOL MATE
  • Year: 1982
  • Current Price: US$ 30,000
  • Located in St. Thomas, Virgin Islands (US)
I'm still not ruling out double masts, i'm sure i'd learn to handle them. I do somehow like the look of them in full sail, different to single mast. Definitely 2 seperate design types and reasons. I don't actually know the reason so can someone fill this part in.

I've gone up another $5000 to anything now in the $30000 range to look out for.

I'll take the advice of the others.

CaptDingy

Silver Raven

Chiroeurope

I'll see how I get on in this price range and how many out of 10 I can still talk to after offering half price.

If I really think it has come to say, this is the boat for me, i'll start to hassle more till I can speak with-out being told where to go and see where I end up on a possible.

MMNETSEA, I never got a reply even on the answer-phone on the Canadian S&s 36'.

I also see it on about 4 different advertisements.

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Old 06-03-2011, 11:16 PM   #41
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busy this end the last few days but a few more have popped up to consider.

36' Pearson 367 Cutter
  • Boat Name: SOL MATE
  • Year: 1982
  • Current Price: US$ 30,000
  • Located in St. Thomas, Virgin Islands (US)
I'm still not ruling out double masts, i'm sure i'd learn to handle them. I do somehow like the look of them in full sail, different to single mast. Definitely 2 seperate design types and reasons. I don't actually know the reason so can someone fill this part in.

I've gone up another $5000 to anything now in the $30000 range to look out for.

I'll take the advice of the others.

CaptDingy

Silver Raven

Chiroeurope

I'll see how I get on in this price range and how many out of 10 I can still talk to after offering half price.

If I really think it has come to say, this is the boat for me, i'll start to hassle more till I can speak with-out being told where to go and see where I end up on a possible.

MMNETSEA, I never got a reply even on the answer-phone on the Canadian S&s 36'.

I also see it on about 4 different advertisements.
There is always a case for 2 masts - the most important being ease of handling. Once the boat is over 40 LOA and when one is single handing, then breaking up the size of the sails may become necessary. At 50 ft there is definitely a necessity or at least having mechanised halyards. And of course getting under bridges and powerlines another reason.

However, when the boat is less than 40ft one is paying for an extra mast, boom, sails, winches, rigging etc for little benefit.
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Old 06-04-2011, 03:06 AM   #42
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There is always a case for 2 masts - the most important being ease of handling. Once the boat is over 40 LOA and when one is single handing, then breaking up the size of the sails may become necessary. At 50 ft there is definitely a necessity or at least having mechanised halyards. And of course getting under bridges and powerlines another reason.

However, when the boat is less than 40ft one is paying for an extra mast, boom, sails, winches, rigging etc for little benefit.
This is perfect, now I can leave them alone and stick with a single mast as 38' is as long as I want for my first boat.( if it's 41' and turns out to be a bargain then no problem)

I'll carry on looking and searching and I should now be able to come up with a list of some well worthy boats.
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