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Old 05-27-2011, 12:01 AM   #1
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Hi everyone, I’m a new member and hopefully about to become a new sailor.

I want to drift round the world, not non-stop or too set records etc, but purely to say I managed it.

I will be solo and live aboard.



I started only looking at 27’-29’ yachts but have since adjusted this to 28’ – 34’ range.

I seriously am going to do this on a shoestring budget as I simply don’t have any other means.

I’m looking to spent £3000-£5000 on the yacht.



I’ve managed to work out what type of yacht and extras to start looking for so this is helpful and now it’s just a case of finding a really good deal out there.

I need it ready to sail with-out needing engine over-hauls or masts changing or replacing.

I don’t mind if it’s grubby needing tlc and minor repairs but that’s it.



I see in North and South America that yachts in my size range are very plentiful and cheap compared to the UK prices. In effect I get 2-3 times the amount of yacht for the same price here in the UK and a huge range.

My question is simply can I go over there and buy it and bring help to sail it back, or am I going to be hit with some sort of fees that make the yacht suddenly worthless?

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Old 05-27-2011, 01:56 AM   #2
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While I'm not in the UK I'd assume that any boat bought elsewhere would attract taxes when entered into British waters again on a permanent basis.

In Australia, if I buy a boat in the USA and sail it back there would be 5% import duty and 10% Goods and Services Tax to be paid. This would be levied on an amount the boat is worth determined by tax inspectors, not the actual invoice price. Unfair, but that's the way it works.

On the other hand, if the difference is great enough it may still be worth the trouble. One can, of course, simply keep traveling and not return home, perhaps even selling the boat offshore again when the time comes.

Check with your taxation department, or whatever they call it in the UK. They probably have a website that covers such things. Oh yeah, and welcome to the forum!

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Old 05-27-2011, 03:08 AM   #3
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Gooday 'stealth'. 1st/ There is much more to the 'whole' story than 'Haiqu' wisely states. However he's right that you should do much homework & do it in writing (IMHO) - so you have a provable paper trail, which you WILL need before all's said & done, as sure as !! Just because you live in &/or are a citizen/resident of a country doesn't mean that the boat has to be registered in that country, as long as you don't want to keep it there full time. As for the rest of your questions; I think my comments maybe far to blunt for you to get any real value from, so for the moment I'll not say to much. IMHO - One of the finest - under-handed (joke intended) world cruising - life support sailing yachts of all time is an - S & S 34' (these little yachts have done more than 8 - 'round the world circum's) but you'll not 'pick-1-up' in your price range, nor for 10 X's that however that would be - in all found & ready to go condition. That said, at least you would make it - all the way around - alive, in one piece & without endangering other peoples lives trying to rescue you, which would not be at all fair to those people - now would it ? ? Which type of yacht do you think would - do-the-trick for you ? ? ? What are your chosen 'extras' ? ? Don't forget - running repairs, on-going daily, weekly, monthly costs, port charges, visa charges, medical vaccinations & clearances etc., motor, sail, rigging & hull repair spares, fuel, food & safety gear, etc., etc., & on & on. Think you might choose to reconsider the length of your 'shoe-string' I personally wish you well & good luck in following your dream. I'm doing the very same thing & can't get under 80 k - regardless of the currency, but then I want to do it & stay alive even though I'm an experienced yacht builder & sailor - of sorts. Ciao from OZ, james
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Old 05-27-2011, 08:34 AM   #4
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Welcome aboard "Stealthmode".

IMHO, I would not go for less than 34' for the type of cruising that you intend to do. Of course, it can be done on a smaller boat but I think that a few months down the road you will start feeling that the vessel may be a little small. Just my opinion.

Good luck on finding the right boat FOR YOU.
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Old 05-27-2011, 12:26 PM   #5
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... and as the UK is part of the EU, the imported pleasure boat has to have a Declaration of Conformity with the EU-standards (CE-Certification), if the yacht is built after 1998:

" The Directive entered into application as from 16 June 1996 and became fully applicable as from 16 June 1998. As from this date, manufacturers and importers may no longer place pleasure craft and components on the market which do not comply with the essential requirements of the Directive. In addition to these technical requirements, the Directive imposes the manufacturer to keep a technical file of all relevant data, to officially state the conformity of his product in a Declaration of Conformity, to affix the CE Marking on it and to inform the users about its safe use and maintenance through a builder's plate and an owner's manual.

Recreational Craft are defined as "any craft intended for sport or leisure purposes, regardless of the type or the means of propulsion, with a hull length of 2.5 to 24 meters, measured according to the appropriate harmonised standards'. The Directive applies to pleasure craft, partially completed boats and loose and assembled components.
" *

If you want to dive deeper into this, visit the page of the International Marine Certification Institute * here , where I found the above info. * *

Normally the authorities do not run around in the marinas to check for the CE-Certification but every time a yacht is to be dealt with by the authorities (entering EU-waters, buying and selling, etc), it will be on the table. *If your yacht in mind is built before that date, it is not covered by this Directive, but documents have to proof the "date of birth".

If you intend to buy a yacht built after 1998 it might be helpful to contact the ship yard for information about the Conformity with the EU standards - some bigger companies do have it, if they also build for the European market. Maybe they have *the relevant data on the "product" you intend to buy - luckily not every individual boat needs this Declaration.

And have fun searching for your boat!

Uwe

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Old 05-28-2011, 01:13 AM   #6
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Hi haiqu, Silver Raven, Lighthouse and Aquaria.

Only change so far is the size and the price. I will now go up to £12 000 Sterling for a 34’ – 38’.

I’ve Read through all your replies and great help, tips and advice for me and some not so great.

I’ve taken onboard the size of 34’ – 38’ for my needs to be better met Lighthouse after reading and doing a bit of research on what has gone before me. Your opinion is right with what I’ve read and heard so now I know the size I want.

Aquaria, this got me reading and thinking.

I’ve seen the full extent and what’s involved in the EU directive and it could cost up to £6000 for this CE mark of approval as long as it’s not stuck with an EU banned engine which unfortunately a lot of them are that I looked at on the net, but now I know which ones are banned this is not a problem.

“The engine is a potential problem. If it is less than 10 years old and not a Perkins/Volvo then it is almost certainly OK – in fact you can give the make and model of the engine, of the boat you are considering buying, to the proofing company, who can look up in their data base to see if it is on the list of approved engines.

If it is not on the list and needs ‘testing’ to confirm its emissions standard, it need not be lifted out. It can have a hole drilled in the manifold and its emissions tested via that. Generally speaking American engines are built to higher emission standards than European… Yanmar and similar are nearly always good news.”

This is an extract on the CE mark of approval

The list goes on so I will avoid the UK

My older brother is a marine engineer in Inverness and I’m also an engineer/lecturer so I’ll know a dud engine in seconds so this part does not worry me. I’m not lifting it out to overhaul though unless it was a reason for a boat to be sold £1000’s cheaper than the asking price.



Haiqu,

Thanks for this. I’ve done a bit of research and it’s much the same rate of import I pay when I ship parts etc from USA, so yes well worth buying over-seas even if I come back to the UK with it and I get one built and proof of birth before 1998. It may take me another read and more as this may still be slightly wrong.

It will cost me between 30% and 50% reduction in price or like I said I will get 2-3 times the amount of yacht for the same money as here in the UK.

The UK is still one of the most expensive places in the world to buy a yacht which will generally be in worst kept conditions of any boats in Canada or America where a lot only ever see fresh water.

I will not worry about staying in the UK or its waters so the import goes out the window until I return from my voyage. This cures that part of the greed of the UK to which I’ve got so used to.

Silver Raven,

As for all the costs of living this is why I am looking for a very cheap yacht which will be just as capable as one at £80000. This leaves me plenty of cash to get by on for my length of time away.

You are in a bracket of money I will not be near again for maybe some years but I’ll still have the same fun as the next man.

I need to set the record straight from the off on one of your pokes at me for no reason.

I’ve part travelled the world and being involved in extreme sports including climbing the Igor and the North face of Nevis along with every peak in the UK since a child.

My cousin worked in RAF Kinloss as a search and rescue volunteer on the sea-king helicopters and flies the world with the RAF and I’ve been involved in search and rescue missions on and off shore so I take offense to the part about you suggesting I would put people’s lives at risk simply by not buying a said boat!

Plenty of people are travelling the world in 27’-29' yachts and ketch’s etc.

I’ve also gone back out to sea in fishing boats when we were almost ready to come ashore after three freezing cold sodden weeks in the North Atlantic in the winter hurricanes off the North of Scotland to help in search and rescue missions of two separate boats that lost all power in hurricanes, one which was on it's way to the Isle of ST.Kilda, some 150 miles off shore in the North Atlantic which had gone 30 miles west of the Island of Pabby, and we were the closest and quickest possible rescue to the crew as the sea-king could not get near the deck to secure a line because of the swell on the sea. And yes we got all the crew off safely even when they had to endure the freezing water and risk drowning and being smashed against the trawler we were on at the time. We then had to put further out to sea and after a few hours we found a marginal break in the weather for the sea-king to take one of the crew ashore as he had sustained a fractured skull. We were in force 7-8 gales and we all took it in our stride till we had the crew all aboard so please, I think I've earned the respect to be rescued if I landed in difficulty and as to putting ones lifes at risk to help me well.

I’m not a novice to the outside world or the seas. Only sailing to which I’ll master quickly enough for my needs and well up to standards needed.

As you say some of your comments may be blunt. Patronizing springs to mind.

On a better note:

I have a better idea of what I'm looking for.

Masthead sloop. Long heavy Fin keel or narrower one. Prefer a tiller for single-handing, wheel not on my list but everything at present is negotiable.

I would also look at any wooden yachts as i'm not scared of these and I see them as a cheap alternative and I have looked at two 38' sloops so far.

I'll sort out the running rigging to the cockpit if needed to help me, but all this will come clear when I finally buy a yacht.

I have a few people who have sailed extensively that will break me in and two people have offered to take me back across the Atlantic towards the UK to get me broken in and ready to try it on my own if I want to buy one in the States or Canada.

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Old 05-28-2011, 01:20 PM   #7
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Best of luck to you in making this happen!

You have come to a good place for research and advice. I live in the Northeast US (Maine) and my wife and I have looked at many boats, though a little larger than what you are looking for. There are a lot of boats for little money just like there are a lot of cars for $500 (US) - most of them around here are really lawn ornaments. Meaning they have sat out of the water for more than a few seasons and suffered the vicissitudes of weather and the ravages of neglect. Not to say there are not plenty of diamonds in the rough. I have heard many stories of people buying boats from hurricane salvage. When insurance companies pay on a claim from a hurricane or some other event, the boat can be had for pennies on the dollar - but it will likely require a new engine or hull repair - not insurmountable but something to consider.

In our search we have found many good research tools - this site among that list. This blog connects you to the cruiser wiki where you will find copious info and sailors who have been there and really know the finer points of nearly everything to do with a boat and cruising.

Another reference guide on most models of sailboats is sailboatdata.com. A good book for you might be Twenty Small boats to take you anywhere - John Vigor (he has several worthwhile books on sailing for the average person of limited budget http://www.johnvigor.com/Welcome.html) The actual list of books and blogs worth reading is really large.

If your journey brings you to my corner of the globe, I hope we get a chance to connect.

All the best!

Bob
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Old 05-28-2011, 07:54 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptDinghy View Post

If your journey brings you to my corner of the globe, I hope we get a chance to connect.

All the best!

Bob
Thanks CaptDinghy, I like the idea of the salvage. Also after realising the size of boat I need is larger than I thought I have since re-done a list of things to reflect the new cost on a bigger boat. £12000 will do me fine for a year or three worth of sailing.

I am in no hurry to go ocean to ocean and am looking to let the wind and tides lead me and i'll try to stay well away from any hurricane seasons.

I'll take the rough when I have to but I don't intend speding all my time on the water in them.

I noticed when I was looking at the 27'-29' range of boats that the jump upto 34'-38' was sometimes 2-3 times the price.

I wonder now if this is because these size cruiser yachts are the most sought after?

I've a feeling i'll end up over your way to buy one as at present it has the highest rating and lowest prices in any developed country from research simply on the Internet.

I've seen a couple down in spain and along the coastal areas around Europe but again dearer than you over there.

I used to buy and ship years ago from the US and I had a feeling it would only be the vat on the price of the boat if I was to import it.

The CE approval, i'm glad Aquaria pointed this out early on to me. Saved me loads of time to now know what to narrow my search too.

The only thing I really need help in at present is finding out which type of yacht I want and getting to grips with becoming one with her.

I also said I din't want a ketch but I've seen a few real nice ones, yes slightly more than I budgeted for but thats all right.

I'm reading some peoples logs and adventures on sailing solo around the worlds oceans and notice one or two short stories of people very happy and content with handling the ketch solo and they put it on the same par as a single masthead to sail and handle, to which they prefer.

I will bear this in mind.

I'd love to pop in and say hello and certainly if i'm over that way I'll pop in. Good chance I will be.

I've started to let on to a few friends what I'm planning and wow, I never thought they would be envious of such a thing.

It's a simple lifestyle choice, like living and travelling in a mobile home.

I work from home when not lecturing and am able to work anywhere in the world so this is also why I want to start exploring the world again.

BY BOAT

Would I buy a 40-50 year old boat, why yes, as long as the survey proves her as good as the day she was built and well looked after.

i'ld put up a few links of ones i've looked at so far but the page would go on for ever.

If I have to spend a week or so getting her ready for the water again i'm not too bothered but I'm not looking for something that needs re-built or stripped to the shell. Simply because I have never touched one in my life.

Thanks for the support

Robert
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Old 05-28-2011, 11:55 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by CaptDinghy View Post

I have heard many stories of people buying boats from hurricane salvage. When insurance companies pay on a claim from a hurricane or some other event, the boat can be had for pennies on the dollar - but it will likely require a new engine or hull repair - not insurmountable but something to consider.
My brother is a marine engineer but I was hoping to leave the mechanical, electrical and all other bits out of this but you have caused me to seriously have a look down this route which i'm actually doing in the background along with hunting down every boat in the world fitting my descrition of what i'm lookinf for.

I looked at one which only recently sank as the owner removed the engine, plus other bits, and can you imagine returning the next morning after taking out the engine to re-build that your yacht is suddenly a submarine.

It was suddenly from £22,000 down to £6000 and i'm sure in a few weeks you could have it re-wired, upholstered and the engine re-built and back together.

This I would do but 99% of me really doesn't want to at present. Time may change this factor. Like I said no option is out yet.

I am now going to simply look around the world till I find one that I can say "that will do me beautifully". I have seen a few I like.

I am enjoying this bit and thanks for the heads up on the salvage yards, I never thought of them.

If it was cheap, as some insurance right-offs are, and the yard could do the repair needed back to spec, this is definitely an option to look at.

I wouls like a Catalina S&S 36' or 38' yacht.

I love the look and style of the top and below and will be very happy living on her. wheel steering but I can't have everything
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Old 05-29-2011, 01:20 AM   #10
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A couple of other sail boats i've look at were:

36' Islander, 1972 and quick sale needed with $10,000 suddenly taken off from $24,500 which is £8,500 to me in sterling.

I also see a few sail boats for sale where students sell them to finish there degrees as they have spent their money and suddenly a £30,000 sail boat becomes first come first served at £10,000 so bargains are out there for the person like me who is not made of money.

Aquira,

Again thank-you so much for showing me CE rules.

I've been in touch with the CE Certification rules and how it applies and basically any boat outside the EC if coming to live in the EC region has to have the certification applied. No questions asked.

Built from 1950 onwards and exempt before this. if here before 1998 with all proof it's also exempt.

Average price is £??? per boat ( engines need changing or re-building to different emmission standards which are getting higher every year), but this sounded confusing on the phone without a positive answer on the final price.

Still not detered, But I will not have a petrol engine, only diesel. This is another item I'm adament about. (petrol outboard for a tender is fine)

So in conclusion i'm not bothered about the CE approval and will still buy from abroad and simply not bother importing it to the EC.
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Old 05-29-2011, 05:15 AM   #11
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What ever you do - don't buy on the internet - by all means search the web for various types.

Set down, what you need on your boat. There are 4 components that must to be in good shape, with at least 5 years life left in them :-

#1 The Hull;

#2 The Standing Rigging;

#3 The Engine & gearbox;

#4 The sails.

The next are important but less expensive and easier to repair or change :-

Batteries

Steering and rudder

Ground tackle

Instruments :-

VHF

Magnetic Compass

GPS

Then once you have fixed in your mind what you need, Get on a plane to the USA - Florida, Carolina, Chesapeake Bay and walk the marinas, boat yards, and once you have found a boat that meets all your needs - get a valuation and condition survey done by a professional surveyor of your choice
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Old 05-29-2011, 12:38 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MMNETSEA View Post

What ever you do - don't buy on the internet - by all means search the web for various types.

Set down, what you need on your boat. There are 4 components that must to be in good shape, with at least 5 years life left in them :-

#1 The Hull;

#2 The Standing Rigging;

#3 The Engine & gearbox;

#4 The sails.

The next are important but less expensive and easier to repair or change :-

Batteries

Steering and rudder

Ground tackle

Instruments :-

VHF

Magnetic Compass

GPS

Then once you have fixed in your mind what you need, Get on a plane to the USA - Florida, Carolina, Chesapeake Bay and walk the marinas, boat yards, and once you have found a boat that meets all your needs - get a valuation and condition survey done by a professional surveyor of your choice
THIS IS EXCELLENT ADVICE - and a most succinct list of critical items (obvious but good to have it spelled out). And the areas (Florida, the Carolinas and Chesapeake Bay) are where most boats are sitting. There are a number of non profit organizations that accept boats as donations - the owners pass away or just get tired of holding on to a boat and take the tax deduction for a charitable gift or the boats are just given for the cause. The charity only benefits when the boat is sold and are often stuck with holding (storing, listing etc) inventory. You might be able to get really good deals there. There is a yard near me that specializes in salvage work - (Northeast Boat Rescue) - they are for profit but they have boats that they will sell either before or after restoration. But the non-profits are easily found by searching "donate my boat"- (http://www.boatswithcauses.org/)

One of my favorite parts of learning about boats is actually going to look at many that I have read about and researched. Even though most I have looked at are on the hard, with some guidance I have been able to see boats differently and appreciate why boat "x" is $10,000 less than boat "y" - same make and model.

Enjoy the journey!
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Old 05-29-2011, 09:18 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MMNETSEA View Post

What ever you do - don't buy on the internet - by all means search the web for various types.

Set down, what you need on your boat. There are 4 components that must to be in good shape, with at least 5 years life left in them :-

#1 The Hull;

#2 The Standing Rigging;

#3 The Engine & gearbox;

#4 The sails.

The next are important but less expensive and easier to repair or change :-

Batteries

Steering and rudder

Ground tackle

Instruments :-

VHF

Magnetic Compass

GPS

Then once you have fixed in your mind what you need, Get on a plane to the USA - Florida, Carolina, Chesapeake Bay and walk the marinas, boat yards, and once you have found a boat that meets all your needs - get a valuation and condition survey done by a professional surveyor of your choice
Thanks for the tips MMNETSEA.

All obvious at this stage and all on my list + more, but definitely great for someone to read and remember.

I’ll be fitting and using auto-helm, a bonus if fitted already.


Kitting out for certain things actually doesn’t bother me, and another sub-conscious reason for buying cheap, knowing I have room to play before I get anywhere near the real price of what I should have paid for the sail boat in the first place.

I know not to buy over the net, no worries there, but definitely a good point for others to take head.

Certainly you can use it to track down boats for sale and take it from there.



Also jumping on a plane is what I will be doing



I have friends up in Michigan, above Detroit, who are looking at Canadian waters and boats up there for me just now, Ontario side.


The sails, mast and hull are items I will need advice on at the time.

Dampness and wood etc are not a problem as long as no osmosis or signs of.

Stripping the woodwork and re-varnishing/treating, again not a problem, and actaully a bit of joy and pride on my side as it is with many others.


I hope its world known you don’t part with a penny before a valuation/survey on a boat. Even if you are qualified enough to do it yourself, you still know what you’re looking for before you start to make an offer or part with your hard earned cash.

Please anyone reading this post, add to it for others like me who are actually going to do it.

A great way to get it all into perspective.

I've also shopped around lightly for a few different types of insurance, from basic liability minimum to a safer policy with a fall-back if something bad should ever happen. It wasn't as bad as I thought till I mentioned single-handling, (alarm bells rang out, but again this is my choice).

I already know about travelling and relevant documentation/jabs etc, from being around part of the world on land already.

A qualified first-aider, but this is normally better done on others and not myself.



I feel guilty prying all this information from you all and now simply going to use it till I’m ready to put it into action.

Thanks all for the help and great places for me to look for a sail boat that not everyone would have thought about at the beginning.

As I get started with the yacht i’ll certainly detail and log the entire event which has now started.

As I mentioned, my brother is a marine engineer In the North of Scotland on the “Caledonian Canal” and he is now on-board since he realized this is no pipe dream.

You can imagine what has just opened up for me in terms of serious help in all this, and he has offered to help me get it CE approved if I want which he sees as just a pest. The main problem now of me buying a boat with a banned engine (which most usually are from abroad), suddenly becomes just an inconvenience of swapping it out if in the banned list.
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Old 05-30-2011, 01:23 AM   #14
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My brother has suddenly pulled out the stops and i'm flooded this end with yachts to pick in my price range.

He's given we details of over 100 world-wide from 40' down to 34'

I'll list a couple I like the look of.

35' C&C, 1981

36' PEARSON Sloop, 1975

35' Columbia, 1975 ($25,000)

40' Morgan Cruiser, 1970 ($18,000)

40' Newporter Ketch, 1964 (Down to $18,000 and very negotiable, urgent sale needed) South Carolina

39' Ericson Flush Deck, 1974 ($24,900) I like very much, 2nd choice.

39' McGruer, 1956 C/R ($19,500 Canadian) I loved this beautiful looking yacht on sight and already started the ball rolling on this one.

37' Ericson E37, 1974 ($17,500)

36' Cal Crusing, 1969 ($17,900) ( ideal for me and very plush inside, mint condition to high spec and ready to go, 3rd choice)

36' Columbia 36, 1968 (£19,950)

The McGruer 8m is wooden built as you will all know in here anyway.

The hull is splined mahogany plank on oak frames with copper fasteners. About every third frame is steel. The original owner had many custom features added such as teak decks plus interior touches for comfortable cruising. It seems no expense was spared and a recent survey in 2009 showed a beautiful sail boat in top condition and beyond.

To own this girl who would have originally been built here on the Clyde will make me happy.

I know its a cruiser/racer thourghbred but I can live with this.

I won't mind taking an experienced person on passage with me till I learn how to sail her.

I'll now await the final outcome because I've already had an email back telling me basically to be on the doorstep ASAP as a few people are interested.

If it happens i'll work everything out as it comes, I know what is involved from beginning to end, but I never expected to move this quick.
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