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Old 07-28-2007, 02:48 AM   #1
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Do you remember in school the first day when the teacher tried to allay your fears. "There are no stupid questions". Well, I have lived long enough to know and to have heard some stupid questions in my liftetime. I am sort of apologizing beforehand, which is not my usual nature. The responses from around the globe and knowledge you folks have shared, is a little intimidating. With that out of the way here goes.

1. Just got back from Port Hardy, BC. Beautiful 53' SV sitting on blocks. Hit a rock 20 miles out, sitting keeless in P. Hardy. Not mangled or damaged, GONE. It was still there after a week of fishing. Is that fixable?

2. This is the second year in a row there is a keel damaged boat in P. Hardy. Tricky to Navigate or bad luck?

3. I am endlessly fascinated by looking at adds for Sailboats.

a. How does one know his standing rigging needs replaced? A lot of adds boast of new standing rigging.

b. I really like the large berths in the stern in Center Cockpit sailboats? Is there anything I should know about CC SV before I get to far along in the bonding process?

c. Fresh water cooled engines. That sounds pretty good not have sea water running through my diesel, issue non issue?

4. Do you guys have life rafts, survival H2O makers, EPIRB's?

That should hold me for now. I appreciate your tolerance in advance.

Duckwheat of Idaho
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Old 07-28-2007, 04:28 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by duckwheat View Post
a. How does one know his standing rigging needs replaced? A lot of adds boast of new standing rigging.

b. I really like the large berths in the stern in Center Cockpit sailboats? Is there anything I should know about CC SV before I get to far along in the bonding process?

c. Fresh water cooled engines. That sounds pretty good not have sea water running through my diesel, issue non issue?
I'll start with the easy ones.

a) When one breaks...at least that is how I did it a couple weeks back. Im now in the expensive process of replacing all my shrouds and back stay. A 60' rig will run you around $5000 for all new rigging...if you go with rod it can cost much more.

I'm sure machinist blue penetrating die would help detect cracks, but if it is stainless and older than 15 years (maybe 20), I'd replace it. Austenitic stainless has a nasty habit of circuming to stress corrosion. Have a rigger take a look at it.

CC are nice...I prefer aft cockpit.

c) Technically they are all fresh water cooled. Sea water never runs through your engine (at least none that I've ever seen or worked on), it runs through a heat exchanger and exchanges heat with your engine's cooling fluid then gets dumped into the exhaust to cool the exhaust gases and then gets discharged overboard.

Although I've never worked on one, my friend had a freshwater cooling system that exchanged heat through a keel cooler. I don't know all the details of how it worked, but I'm sure someone else here will know all about it.
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Old 07-28-2007, 05:02 AM   #3
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I have a centre cockpit sloop. I have had both aft and CC, and deliberately chose the CC this time around. Having a totally separate space aft of the engine room allows one to get away from others on the boat. It is also easier and cheaper to aircondition for sleeping than an aft cockpit. One experiences an alltogether more pleasant motion when offshore in a CC. Crew are safer from going overboard in a CC.The CC is more protected against greenies...particularly those which sneak up from astern.

I am sure the aft cockpit mob will have compelling reasons for their choice, but it is after all a personal preference we are considering.

The problems with a missing keel depend on the structure of the boat. If the keel was moulded and is missing, the problems of warping, weakened structure and rebuilding are massive. If it is a bolt on job, the main structure may only have suffered minor damage. Also, how much water got inside? Only a good surveyor will be able to determine the true damage and advise you on whether the boat is a fixer-upper, or a new artificial reef.

Cheers

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Old 07-28-2007, 07:19 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duckwheat View Post
1. Just got back from Port Hardy, BC. Beautiful 53' SV sitting on blocks. Hit a rock 20 miles out, sitting keeless in P. Hardy. Not mangled or damaged, GONE. It was still there after a week of fishing. Is that fixable?

2. This is the second year in a row there is a keel damaged boat in P. Hardy. Tricky to Navigate or bad luck?

3. I am endlessly fascinated by looking at adds for Sailboats.

a. How does one know his standing rigging needs replaced? A lot of adds boast of new standing rigging.

b. I really like the large berths in the stern in Center Cockpit sailboats? Is there anything I should know about CC SV before I get to far along in the bonding process?

c. Fresh water cooled engines. That sounds pretty good not have sea water running through my diesel, issue non issue?

4. Do you guys have life rafts, survival H2O makers, EPIRB's?
Hi Duckwheat,

Welcome aboard.

Your questions will promote many different answers. Here are my facts and opinions:

1. Don't know. Get a surveyor to have a look and give his as to the viability of repairs......and the cost!

2. I wold say that this is just a question of statistics. Eventually 2 keel dammaged boats will turn up in any given place. I would just forget the question and instead concentrate on learning to navigate

3a. Good questio and one which I cannot answer as stainless steel rigging often gives no indication before breaking. My advice would be to re-rig every 5 years if the oat sees a lot of use. On NAUSIKAA I change 2 shrouds every year and a stay (front or back) every other year. That means I get a complete change of rig every 4 years. Be particularly wary of the forestay if ou have roller-reefing as the stay is hidden by the reefing gear.

3b. Centre cockpits offer better protection from the weatehr and the stern cabin is great when you have guests sleeping over. On the other hand I believe in keeping thins simple and as such prefer tiller over wheel steering. For this you need an aft cockpit.

3c. Some, often older engines, are sea-water cooled. Most engines arround now are freshwater cooled. IMHO, go for fresh water cooling. It causes less wear on the engine and, when corrosion has become bad or the heat exchanger blocked then it is a simple matter to exchange it for a new. Changing an engine block or head due to corrossion is not so good.

4. Yes to all of these except the watermaker.

Keep the questions coming!

Aye

Stephen
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Old 07-28-2007, 05:19 PM   #5
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Quote:
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3a. Good questio and one which I cannot answer as stainless steel rigging often gives no indication before breaking. My advice would be to re-rig every 5 years if the oat sees a lot of use. On NAUSIKAA I change 2 shrouds every year and a stay (front or back) every other year. That means I get a complete change of rig every 4 years. Be particularly wary of the forestay if ou have roller-reefing as the stay is hidden by the reefing gear.

Aye

Stephen
Stephen,

Wow, every 5 years! That would break most people's bank for a tall rig...mine included. I'm going to have to check into this with a rigger. Stress corrosion in austenitic stainless is a very slow process and obviously depends on the stress level and environment. Every 5 years seems a bit excessive. Then again, the failure mode can be catastrophic in many cases.

Also, are you saying that there are engines that circulate salt water and not just exchange heat in a heat exchanger? I've never seen or heard of one that does this...it would seem to be a REALLY bad idea.

If so, what boats /and/or engines did this?
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Old 07-28-2007, 06:20 PM   #6
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The first engine on SV Watermelon was salt-water cooled. We repowered her with a Yanmar Fresh-water cooled engine. We first realized the potential problems when freeze plug after freeze plug blew when the 'Melon was about 6 years old.

Cheaper to modify a diesel engine designed for an auto than to build/modify it for a boat with fresh water cooling, so there are a lot out there. Do watch that, particularly if you wish to cruise in tropical waters.

Yes, I like the aft cockpit. lower, less windage, we never were pooped. More to go wrong on a center cockpit.

I can't continue, I've had one glass of wine too many celebrating the possible end of the bad weather that's kept us from heading out.

Nite-nite.

Jeanne
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Old 07-28-2007, 08:29 PM   #7
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The salt water actually goes through the engine cooling passages?...that's just crazy!

I've been working on boats for over 20 years and have never come across an engine cooling system that does this. Are these mostly custom built boats or older boats?
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Old 07-28-2007, 08:29 PM   #8
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Stephen,

Wow, every 5 years! That would break most people's bank for a tall rig...mine included.

If so, what boats /and/or engines did this?
Yeah, my rig is not so high but as you often get no indication of failure I choose to change it. I honestly don't know enough about metal fatigue but it sacres the **** out of me.

As for the engines, as Jeanne wrote, there are many. Volvo Penta, I know did this. If I remember rightly so did SABB. There are certainly many more.

Aye

Stephen
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Old 07-29-2007, 12:49 AM   #9
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Yeah, my rig is not so high but as you often get no indication of failure I choose to change it. I honestly don't know enough about metal fatigue but it sacres the **** out of me.

As for the engines, as Jeanne wrote, there are many. Volvo Penta, I know did this. If I remember rightly so did SABB. There are certainly many more.

Aye

Stephen
Well, I know I waited far too long to replace mine, 25 years. And there waas no indication that it was going to break.

As far as a direct salt water cooled engine goes, it is mind boggling to me...and yeah I know outboards do it, but....why would they do this when it is so easy to simply attach an external heat exchanger built from a copper alloy.
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Old 07-29-2007, 06:02 AM   #10
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Then there are the commercial vessels which use keel cooling, so there is no raw water inlet anywhere in the boat. Just a totally enclosed freshwater recirculating system such as you have in your car. The hot water from the engine is pumped through external pipes along the keel and cooling occurs through heat transfer directly with the outside environment.

David.
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Old 07-29-2007, 06:22 AM   #11
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Then there are the commercial vessels which use keel cooling, so there is no raw water inlet anywhere in the boat. Just a totally enclosed freshwater recirculating system such as you have in your car. The hot water from the engine is pumped through external pipes along the keel and cooling occurs through heat transfer directly with the outside environment.

David.
Yeah, this is what I thought the original post was refering too.
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Old 07-29-2007, 06:22 AM   #12
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Keel cooling is used a lot where vessels operate in muddy waters or in ice - not fast ice but just the slushy kind of stuff.

Then you have the opposite for slightly larger vessels opperating in ice. They may have a sea water tank which is their salt water cooling. They still have fresh water cooling and a heat exchanger. I served on one such vessel once, a small tug, and it was great; a nice warm, snow and ice-free deck in the middle of winter thanks to the heat from the cooling tank directly below.

Then there are a few air-cooled engines arround too. As a young cadet I ran a pinnace which had been built in Germany during the war. She had been re-engined with an air-cooled Lister and a Kitchener (bucket type) rudder. Now that was something! The rudder arrangement took a lot of getting used to but you could get that boat to move in any direction you wanted.

For a normal cruising yacht I would only consider a freshwater cooled engine, heat exchanger with saltwater cooling on the other side.

Aye

Stephen
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Old 07-30-2007, 04:36 AM   #13
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Just a quick word again on cooling systems.

You may, or may not, know that sea water cooling systems are often called "raw water" cooling systems. This just to add to the confusion.

Aye

Stephen
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Old 07-30-2007, 10:58 AM   #14
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The salt water actually goes through the engine cooling passages?...that's just crazy!

I've been working on boats for over 20 years and have never come across an engine cooling system that does this. Are these mostly custom built boats or older boats?
Hi,

I had a 40ft 50 yr old timber sloop and she had a Yamaha Salt (raw) water cooled engine. Despite a strainer on the water intake she constantly got weed sucked up and worse still small micro organisms that breed inside the engine causing shell grit to circulate and destroy the water pump impellor regularly. Give them a big miss unless you want to change impellors all the time. My replacement impellor cost A$80 each time. If using salt water cooling consider a seperate simple circulatory system of fresh water to run through the engine just before shutting down rather than to leave salt water inside the channels similar to flushing an outboard. You can easily switch back to salt water when running the engine again. Maybe the switch could be an automatic solenoid activated type. Just a thought as i haven't actually tried this.

I was always puzzled as to why I had a water tank inside my keel with a drain plug in the keel sides but no way to fill the damn thing. After reading the comments submitted I now realise that my boat must have originally been setup to have a keel based closed water system to cool the engine but somewhere along the oceans it must have beem replaced with a salt water system. Wish I had known as i would have changed it back.

As for changed rigging on the day I took my boat for a test sail it was blowing a gusty 40+ knot southerly and one main stroud snapped. They all looked in really good knick! I was impressed that the mast stayed up and we were able to still keep sailing as i watched other boats returning with no masts. My advice is when it is time to change and you are meerly cruising change to galvanised. It is heaps cheaper, not as pretty but available everywhere. You can see when they are badly rusted.

Safety gear: EPIRBs essential in my book and make sure it is the latest 406mhz as the others will be inoperable in two years time. Beware the old style are going cheap on the internet. Get a SSB transceiver and buy a sextannt andlearn how to use it even if it is a basic plastic one. Have GPS or two but make sure you do a noon sun sight just to reassure yourself where you are or in case you are pitchpoled and all the electrics are kaput! Always carry a sharp one-cut knife on you in case you have to cut a mooring line, hallyard etc in a hurry. A personal strobe is a good idea as is a danbuoy. A strobe for the top of the mast is good insurance against a freighter not being able to see you well in a storm. The list goes on and on ... consider not relying on a liferaft and set your boat up so that it might float. Have a liferaft anyway but don't abondoned ship unless you have to step up to the raft never down to it.

If there is a boat abandoned a good look over will tell you if she is repairable or not assuming you have some knowledge of this but beware there are all sorts of international laws about salvaging such a boat and these can be very costly especially to re register her.

Hope these comments help?

Colin.
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