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Old 09-09-2010, 10:58 AM   #1
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My friend says he defies you to keep a straight face.

http://gizmodo.com/5632159/this-is-h...a-cruise-liner
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Old 09-09-2010, 04:41 PM   #2
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I didn't laugh or smile. I just don't have that kind of sense of humor I suppose. I was horrified to think of those poor passengers. They don't think of a cruise as something risky at all.
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Old 09-23-2010, 06:29 PM   #3
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Great video...sorry, I laughed.
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Old 09-24-2010, 02:58 AM   #4
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Wrong place, wrong time -- 400nm north of NZ and early August. It's a fairly notorious storm belt even in the late spring and early summer months. Not where and when I'd like to be on a cruise liner.
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Old 09-24-2010, 10:11 AM   #5
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...it was in 1968, I was 10 years old, when I had that "chance" to be on the North Sea (German Bight) on a 50m daycruise passenger ship during one of those autumn "storms" (forces 7 to 8, ghusts up to 9) . Everything was okay as long as the ship was making headway against the tremendous waves. But one of them threw the ship off course and then having the sea from abeam (This I know from my father). And the chaos started and this own experience I will not forget: the same situation as in the video - luckily the tables and benches were fixed to the floor, so "only" chairs and passengers were tossed around. But there were some of the starboard panoramic windows destroyed and green water was moving through the restaurant deck. Still very young, I was not so aware of theoretic possibilities of capsizing or sinking, but it was a borderline experience I don't want to have again. The ship made it into port, accompanied by rescue boats and quite some passengers had to be transferred to the hospital. NO, THIS VIDEO IS NOT FUNNY AT ALL.

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Old 09-24-2010, 11:37 AM   #6
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Having sailed in the Great lakes on Huron during a Storm and far enough out to be safe and unfortunately, far enough out to be near the shipping channels for the freighters. That meant someone making sure a lamp was in the sails. Since we had not deck lamps to do the duty without a person manning them, well we took turns. Not something I enjoyed and I was one of the lucky ones who got to do my turn before dinner was served. No the Video is not funny, not funny at all. Than again being Medically trained makes it even less funny. Sorry don't mean to be rude just honest. Michael
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Old 09-24-2010, 03:27 PM   #7
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I concur completely with Uwe's (Aquaria) comments.

When I was a child I too experienced a storm force 10 in the North Sea aboard a 3,000 ton Norwegian vessel. It was not funny but I did learn something - that a ship has to be built to withstand that kind of weather. Tables and chairs need to be secured. In later life, as a cadet and ship's officer, I sailed through many storms - typhoons and cyclones as well as the "normal" Atlantic depressions. The ships pitched and rolled, sometimes over 35 degrees each side of the vertical but, though it may have been uncomfortable, the ships were built to withstand this. The problem arrises when ships, built to transport people who are unacustomed to the sea, are built not to roll. Stabalizers are fitted and, providing all works well, the passangers find them very comfortable. The problem arrises when, for one reasomn or another, they do start rolling. On a large, modern cruise ship or ferry it has been established that panic will break out at a 5 degree angle of roll!

I ask myself, have we made any advances here? Stabalizers work but only provided the ship is making way through the water. Once she is obliged to stop they cease to work. Also, in really bad weather they have to be taken in to avoid damage. In such circumstances, ships start rolling heavily and damage occurs.

Aside from such items as navigational aids, engine reliability and fire-proofing which has improved dramatically, ships are, in my opinion, less safe than they were 30 years ago. This, coupled with the sheer size and capacity of modern vessels, will one day cost a lot of lives. Add this to the fact that ships now, due to the "benefits" of global warming are probing further and further into high latitudes which, generally, are not so well surveyed, and we have a very serious risk factor.

Aye // Stephen
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Old 09-25-2010, 12:06 AM   #8
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Imagine heading into this cyclonic storm - the outer wall so well defined :

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Old 09-25-2010, 02:23 PM   #9
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Stephen,

You are as normal correct and point out a very important part of observation. Being able to see and learn from what you are seeing. Thank you.

Michael
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Old 09-29-2010, 11:01 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nausikaa View Post

...

Aside from such items as navigational aids, engine reliability and fire-proofing which has improved dramatically, ships are, in my opinion, less safe than they were 30 years ago. This, coupled with the sheer size and capacity of modern vessels, will one day cost a lot of lives. Add this to the fact that ships now, due to the "benefits" of global warming are probing further and further into high latitudes which, generally, are not so well surveyed, and we have a very serious risk factor.

Aye**//**Stephen
Hearing that from an expert in naval matters is frightening! *So far I believed that, no matter what course, a total loss like the ferry ESTONIA (Baltic Sea between Estonia nad Sweden) brought a big improvement in passenger ship safety! *I am not en expert but imagining one of these huge highrise bulidings in heavy seas... where does the moment of uprightening end? 35°? *I better stop imagining things at this point.

Uwe

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Old 10-06-2010, 10:13 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquaria View Post

Hearing that from an expert in naval matters is frightening! So far I believed that, no matter what course, a total loss like the ferry ESTONIA (Baltic Sea between Estonia nad Sweden) brought a big improvement in passenger ship safety! I am not en expert but imagining one of these huge highrise bulidings in heavy seas... where does the moment of uprightening end? 35°? I better stop imagining things at this point.

Uwe

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Well, we have better understanding of stability and stress issues than 30 years ago, and we do have better rules and regulations. But if you look at those highrise buildings, you will find that they wear a panamian flag. Hopefully it is "just" tax evasion, but who knows...

Remember that "canadian" school ship sinking not so long ago, carrying canadian, US and EU kids, operated by a canadian company, but sailing under panamian flag? I still don't know whether it was built to canadian standards. From the few information available it is suspicious whether rules regarding damaged stability were observed.
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Old 10-06-2010, 01:20 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magwas View Post

Remember that "canadian" school ship sinking not so long ago, carrying canadian, US and EU kids, operated by a canadian company, but sailing under panamian flag? I still don't know whether it was built to canadian standards. From the few information available it is suspicious whether rules regarding damaged stability were observed.
Please provide a link to the facts, regarding the above post. Was there an official enquiry finding and/or a coroner's inquest?
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Old 10-06-2010, 03:42 PM   #13
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this one?

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/world/2010-02/20/c_13180727.htm

Also, see this blog about it concordia inquiry blog

If it was the Concordia, its flag state was Barbados. That confuses me, since the same article - Canada TSB investigates claims that the boat was Canadian-owned and operated. So how come a Barbadian flag?
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Old 10-06-2010, 03:43 PM   #14
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The TSB of Canada has not yet released their finding to the public or on their website. The Maritime Board of Barbados has not released their report either and they where the country of Registry for the SV Concordia. The Vessel had passed An inspection by the Canadian government to operate as a floating classroom. No coroners inquest is currently in the pipeline according to TSB as this is a no fault investigation on their part. All information was gather via the TSB and Canadian Google. The MB of Barbados does not electronically link their reports to the Internet for reasons unknown to me (since the TSB, USDOT, and MCA do). That is current information as I have was able to find.

Michael
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Old 10-09-2010, 08:27 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquaria View Post

where does the moment of uprightening end? 35°?

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Uwe,

I would have got back to you sooner on this issue but I have just spent a bit more than a week in the UK going through yet another Safety at Sea and fire-fighting course. I have to renew my certificates every five years (SCTW requirement).

To your question, assuming a vessel, initially in a stable condition, is heeled by an external influence (waves) she will, just like a yacht, generate a righting lever. This is known as GZ. From the GZ curves for differing angles of heel and displacement,you will see that the ESTONIA would not reach the point of vanishing stability before she was heeled 55 - 65 degrees. Lack if initial stability was not a problem for the ESTONIA. In fact, from the curves, one can see that ESTONIA's maximum GZ was in the region of 1.1m. The righting force would then be 1.1 X Δ where delta = displacement. As her displacement was 11,000 tonnes in this instance the righting lever is an enrmous 12,100 tonne-metres.

The IMO Panel of Experts accepted the findings of the Estonia Commission, i.e. the ESTONIA sinking was a result of the visor locks failing and that the subsequent water ingress caused a loss of stability resulting in the ship becoming unstable and sinking. Why does water ingress cause a lack of stability? Well, it is the free-surface effect of water. This you can easily test yourself. Take a round tray with a high edge (the type used in pubs) and place a tumbler of water on the tray. You can now support the tray from underneath with only one hand. Balancing it is not difficult. Now, lift the glass off and pour the water onto the tray and see what is does for the balancing act!

Certainly, the loss of the ESTONIA and her 852 passengers and crew in 1994 resulted in a host of new and amended rules and regulations regarding passenger ship safety but the fundamental fact remains that ferries have one or more continuous car decks. This space, if flooded, will result in a loss of buoyancy but will, in all probability, before sufficient buoyancy is lost to sink the vessel cause such a loss of stability that the vessel will capsize.

Judging from the reaction to the loss of the ESTONIA one would imagine that this was the first time a ferry sank as a result of water ingress on the car deck. This is not so. On the 6th March 1987 the Roll on/Roll off passenger and freight ferry HERALD OF FREE ENTERPRISE sailed from the inner harbour at Zeebrugge. The ship was manned by a crew of 80. Approximately 459 passengers had embarked for the voyage to Dover, which was expected to be completed without incident in the prevailing good weather. There was a light easterly breeze and very little sea or swell. The ship passed the outer mole at 18.24 and capsized about four minutes later. During the final moments the HERALD OF FREE ENTERPRISE turned rapidly to starboard and was prevented from sinking totally due to her port side taking the ground in shallow water. The HERALD OF FREE ENTERPRISE came to rest with her starboard side above the surface. Water rapidly filled the ship below the surface level resulting in the loss of not less than 150 passengers and 38 members of the crew.

The sinking of the HERALD OF FREE ENTERPRISE did not have the same impact as the sinking of the ESTONIA, probably because it was attributed to human error. The ship left the quay with her bow door open and took water on the car deck before the door could be closed. However, even this incident was not the first time a vessel had been lost due to water ingress on a car deck.

In 1968 the New Zealand ship WAHINE struck a rock when entering Wellington harbour. At 06:40 on Good Friday she struck Barrett's Reef. The WAHINE was the second ship to bear the name and had a gross tonnage of 8,948 tons. She was 488 feet (149m) long and, as such, one of the largest ferries in the world.

The WAHINE did not sink immediately but remained afloat for several hours until 14:30 when water ingress on the two-tier car deck caused the ship to capsize in 38 feet of water resulting in 51 people losing their lives; 44 passengers, six crew members and one stowaway.

I wonder why, more than 40 years after the loss of the WAHINE, ferries are still being built with continuous car decks? Of course, the answer is that loading and discharging such a vessel is simple and quick but should bean-counters be dictating how ships should be built or should that be left to professional seamen and naval architects?

Of course, much has been done to improve safety at sea; not least regarding the prevention of fires but these still happen. As an example, the Bahamas registered cruise ship STAR PRINCESS caught fire. The official report on the fire, published by the British Marine Accident Investigation Branch (MAI, placed the blame on an unknown smoker whose cigarette ignited plastic partitions and furniture on one of the stateroom balconies surrounding the exterior of the ship. In fact, the balconies themselves, being constructed of aluminium, also caught fire. While room sprinklers kept the blaze from spreading to the interior, choking black smoke from the burning plastic blocked inboard escape routes. One person died in the incident and a further 11 were injured.

For further examples of fires on passenger ships we need look no further than Carnival Cruise Lines.

One of the most publicised incidents involved their ship ECSTACY which,in 1998, caught fire shortly after leaving her berth in Miami. As the ship had not left the port area there were capable of fire-fighting resources nearby. Had the fire had occurred a little later the outcome could have been very different.

The next year, another Carnival cruise ship, the TROPICALE, caught fire and the ship was adrift in the Gulf of Mexico with 1,700 passengers and crew members for almost two days after the fire disabled the engines.

In fact, the TROPICALE’s problems can be traced back to 1982 when a fire broke out during her inaugural cruise. The ECSTACY had also caught on fire earlier, in 1996.

Carnival has had more than its share of fires, with the Carnival celebration also burning in 1995.

The fire incident which I know best, having been called to the scene, was that of the SCANDINAVIAN STAR, also Bahamas registered.

The SCANDINAVIAN STAR was built in France in 1971 as a combined passenger ship and ferry for cars and trailers. Not being a requirement at the time, the ship generally was not fitted with either an automatic fire detection system or an automatic fire fighting system, although some spaces, such as the engine room, were fitted with this.

The ship had previously been operating out of Miami on short cruises but was purchased in March 1990 by the V R Dano Group to replace the HOLGER DANSKE on the run between Frederikshaven in Denmark and Oslo, Norway. The ship was quickly brought into service by the new owners, making its first run on the new service on 1 April. Only nine original members of the crew remained with the ship and they comprised mainly engineering crew including the chief engineer. The rest of the crew were either previous members of the crew of HOLGER DANSKE, consisting of deck officers and catering officers, or they were recruited new to the ship. This latter group were mainly "hotel staff' of Portuguese nationality.

The SCANDINAVIAN STAR came, as previously mentioned, into service on the new run on 1 April. It appears to have operated without incident until the tragic voyage on 6 April. The ship left Oslo at 21.45 that day under the command of Captain Hugo Larsen and with a crew of 99 and 383 passengers.

Between 01.45 and 02.00 on 7 April, a small fire was discovered in a pile of bed clothes on the port side of Deck 4. This fire was quickly extinguished. However, a little after 02.00, a second fire started in the aft section of the starboard corridor of Deck 3. The fire was not extinguished quickly and at 02.24 hours the ship sent a Mayday message giving an incorrect position, placing the vessel in Norwegian MRCCs sphere of responsibility. The maritime rescue co-ordinating centre in Norway therefore commenced to lead the rescue work. The correct position turned out to be in Swedish waters, 11 nautical miles west of Väderöarna.

From the Norwegian MRCC, Tjøme radio, an immediate alarm was sent out that assistance was needed. During the first half-hour three helicopters and 12 Swedish coastguard vessels, pilot-boats and search and rescue units, and three Norwegian helicopters, coastguard vessels and motor torpedo boats were sent out. From Denmark, several helicopters were sent.

At 03.20, the master of the SCANDINAVIAN STAR decided that it was not possible to extinguish the fire and the decision was taken to abandon ship. The master and his crew proceeded to evacuate the ship but did not ensure that all passengers had left before doing so themselves. Many passengers were still onboard the burning ship after it was towed to harbour.

At 11.55 the ship was taken under tow to the port of Lysekil in Sweden where she arrived at 21.17. At this time there was a small amount of smoke coming from the ship and externally there appeared little evidence of a major fire. However, during the night, whilst the fire brigade was trying to extinguish the fire, the fire developed and spread significantly causing extensive damage to most decks.

The fire was eventually extinguished on Sunday 8 April. During the following week, the emergency services were employed in removing the bodies from the ship. It was eventually found that 158 people had died in the tragedy; 156 passengers and two crew.

One would immagine that the consequences for the ship owner and master of the SCANDINAVIAN STAR would have been very severe. Not so. Three men were sentenced by a Danish court to brief jail terms in connection with the fire. The Copenhagen maritime court sentenced Norwegian Capt. Hugo Larsen to 60 days in jail; Danish shipowner Henrik Johansen and former shipping line director Ole Hansen received 40-day sentences. All three were found guilty of charges of being responsible for inadequate security arrangements aboard the SCANDINAVIAN STAR.

Anyone having read this far will by now, I am sure, be of the opinion that ships are not as safe as they should be - in fact, far from it and will check the positions of their lifebelts, muster stations and emergency exits before sailing on a ferry in the future.

Aye // Stephen
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ESTONIA GZ.gif   WAHINE.jpg   star princess.jpg   Scandinavian Star.jpg  
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Old 10-09-2010, 09:24 AM   #16
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Stephen,

GREAT post !!

Thanks

Richard
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Old 10-09-2010, 03:16 PM   #17
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I do not feel at all like saying, "What did I say?" but this is today's news. The article comes from the BBC website.

Quote:
More than 200 rescued from burning Baltic Sea ferry

Firefighters were expecting to work all through Saturday to extinguish the flames

More than 200 passengers have been rescued from a Baltic Sea ferry after it caught fire near the German island of Fehmarn, maritime officials said.

At least 20 people suffered light injuries, the German Maritime Emergency Centre said.

There were reports of an explosion on board early on Saturday, but officials said the cause of the fire was not clear.

Firefighters were still working to put out the flames at midday on Saturday.

The Lithuanian passenger and car ferry Lisco Gloria was on route from the German port of Kiel to Klaipeda in Lithuania when the fire broke out after midnight.

It had 236 passengers and crew on board, the Maritime Emergency Centre in Cuxhaven said. They had arrived back in Kiel to be questioned by police, a spokesman for the centre added.

He said extinguishing the flames was proving difficult, and firefighters were expecting to work to save the ship all through Saturday.
Fortunately, it would seem that there have been no deaths or major injuries.

The ship is a ro/pax vessel with a continuous car deck. At the moment, fire-fighting vessels are pumping water onto her to quel the flames. The question is will she capsize or sink before the fire is extinguished?

In this instance, it makes me very sad to have been proven right.

Incidentally, also in the news today:

Quote:
A tanker carrying thousands of tonnes of heavy pygas gasoline has collided with a cargo ship off France's Brittany coast
. Again, the source is the BBC.

Aye // Stephen
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Old 10-09-2010, 04:55 PM   #18
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The news from Sweden is that rescue services have stopped pumping water into the LISCO GLORIA as they believe that she may well capsize due to the volume of water now in the ship. They hope the fire will burn out before the vessel sinks.

Time will tell

Aye // Stephen
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Old 10-09-2010, 10:39 PM   #19
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And a photograph
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Old 10-10-2010, 01:11 PM   #20
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more pictures of the LISCO GLORIA for those who may be interested...

Photographs from EPA/COMMAND FOR MARITIME EMERGENCIES - HANDOUT EDITORIAL USE ONLY/NO SALES
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