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Old 09-12-2007, 04:34 PM   #15
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Notwithstanding the above there will be times (especially in coastal seas where there are very large tidal ranges) when it will be necessary to let out additional scope.

Another example :- depth 50ft @ 7 to 1 ratio :- 50 x 7 = 350 ft plus allowance for tidal change plus weight of anchor say 80lbs. Off shore wind. Without motoring up onto the tackle, the windlass will be still be grunting to lift close to half a ton.
Hi, all,

I myself cannot imagine having ALL our chain out--however, I've met people who do extensive northern latitude sailing who habitually put out between 300 and 500 feet of (all chain) scope. Having said that, the Ideal Windlass Company tells us that if we were to drop the 600' (as a previous poster talked about) in the middle of the ocean, the windlass COULD pull it back in (with a 120 lb anchor on the end to boot!) BUT we would only be able to haul in about 200' at a time before the electric motor would be very, very hot. It would have to come in in 200 ft lifts with a cool down period between. That is what I was getting at in my previous post about rigging compressed air to cool the motor. I cannot imagine dropping 600' in the middle of the ocean, but I can imagine wanting to haul in 300'-400' of chain all at once and this windlass couldn't do it all at once. The windlass company did their calc's by looking at the full dead weight of the anchor and chain. The boat had this windlass onboard with less rode when the previous owner decided to upgrade his rode. His plans were to cruise extensively in the Pacific Northwest and Alaska and he based his anchor system selection upon the experiences of sailors and fishermen who frequent those cruising grounds. We intend to cruise the same areas in the near future, so we're holding onto all that chain!

With many common anchors, such as the CQR (Plow) or Danforth, the use of chain is important, for these anchors are designed to function only with a horizontal pull on the shank. They cannot tolerate any uplift and must be well bedded in before any tension is applied to the rode.

In anchor tests made (U.S. Navy San Diego CA, reported on in USN Technical Note No. CEL N-1581 July 1980 Washington DC) it was found that a chain rode could produce up to two-thirds of the total holding power of an Anchor System. In bottoms of soft mud however, the chain itself tends to lie on the surface, preventing the anchor from penetrating deeper. The US Navy found that when constantly anchoring in soft mud, deeper penetration and higher holding power can be achieved with the use of a wire rope, instead of chain.

While many people do rely on a combination of chain and rope, we are happy to have an all chain rode for one of our anchor systems. We won't use wire rope, but we do intend to deck-mount a spool of at least 300' of nylon rode that can be deployed in situations where the all chain rode is unsuited (like silty mud). One side of our windlass is for chain, the other for rope.

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Old 09-12-2007, 10:29 PM   #16
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The New Zealanders have produced a first class anchor : http://www.rocna.com/main

(we have no interests in that company)
This anchor interests me Richard.

I am very interested to hear of your experiences with it as the company certainly is not shy of making very strong claims regarding their anchor's ability to set and hold.



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is fitted with all chain (50 metres) and a CQR main anchor. I also have a Fortress and as a last reserve an anchor which came with the boat and looks very like a scaled down version of the Bismark's anchors. Not quite Admiralty pattern but reasonably close. I have never used this anchor and suspect it to have relatively poor holding power. It is however very heavy and so performs an admirable function as extra ballast!

Bit back to the Rochna. As I wrote, any info other than the manufacturer's is of great interest.

Aye // Stephen
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Old 09-13-2007, 12:23 AM   #17
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This anchor interests me Richard.

I am very interested to hear of your experiences with it as the company certainly is not shy of making very strong claims regarding their anchor's ability to set and hold.

back to the Rochna. As I wrote, any info other than the manufacturer's is of great interest.

Aye // Stephen
Hi Stephen,

No, I have no personal experience of this anchor - I have a Fortress and stainless copy of a Bruce. (plus a monster copy of a Danforth which at 200kg is used as mooring block in thick- black-sticky- mud; instead of putting down one of the bow anchors)

My attention was drawn to the Kiwi anchor by some cruising NZ friends who swear by it.

Although I thought that the independent review by West Marine of the anchor amongst all the others was fair.

Richard
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Old 09-13-2007, 12:38 AM   #18
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Hi, all,

The Ideal Windlass Company tells us that if we were to drop the 600' (as a previous poster talked about) in the middle of the ocean, the windlass COULD pull it back in (with a 120 lb anchor on the end to boot!) BUT we would only be able to haul in about 200' at a time before the electric motor would be very, very hot. It would have to come in in 200 ft lifts with a cool down period between. That is what I was getting at in my previous post about rigging compressed air to cool the motor.

Does the Ideal Windlass Company advise what part of the windlass is the major source of the heat that is being generated ?

It could be that compressed air alone will not reach that source. The gearing will take some time to cool down anyway - while the electric motor being enclosed would not be affected by the compressed air.
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Old 09-16-2007, 09:20 PM   #19
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Hello Everyone,

I'm new to this forum, but not to sailing as I have been a professional sailor most of my life. Retired from working on big yachts, with unlimited budgets, to now cruising on my own sailboat (very limited budget), I look forward to learning from each other.


We all have our own preferences about anchoring , so if it works for you and your particular design arrangement, then that is all that matters, but here are a few of my own preferences for those still planning, or building.

If you are cruising extensively, you will encounter every type of anchoring situation, so plan to have enough ground tackle and lifting capability to easily handle it. As I cruise in a Typhoon area my gear is at least one number above Lloyds numerical standard for my type and tonnage, all chain and + 7 shackles (630 ft per side). That would be extreme if you just cruised around shallow delta type anchorages, but not in many of the places I have been.

Unlike Galavanters, I always use the windlass to pull the boat to the anchor since that is the only way I can insure that the lead remains ahead of me, especially if you are leaving at night. Slow and easy!

Redbopeep's photo showing a shiny vertical capstan and 2 horizontal windlasses is my favourite arrangement as the capstan can be used in any direction to warp yourself out of trouble. I also found the horizontal gypsies less prone to twisting.

If you have a choice, electric will have more break-away torque than hydraulic. I prefer a wanderlead to foot switches for control as the operator can better see if anything is fouling the chain and he can bring home the anchor more gently.

I'm fussy about always hitting the spot I want to let my anchor bottom (usually a bit of a charted dip in the sea bed) so I let it run out by gravity in a fast but controlled manner so that it will stop at the given depth and then by going astern I can lay the chain towards the nearest danger without fear of dragging during deployment. This way, your crew develops a feel for using a soft brake and you don't need to worry about excessive strain on your windlass if you have it clutched in when you come up hard.

In any new builds I have been involved in, I would specify a deep water emergency arrangement that I learned from my early days in offshore towing. This applies more to power vessels, hopefully will never need to be used, but has saved more than one vessel drifting towards a lee shore that is deep or steep to:

In the chain locker, the fore and aft centreline bulkhead that separates the 2 chains has a heavy duty fairlead/ roller arrangement welded in the bottom. The bitter ends of both chains are tied off in each compartment as is normal, but a joining shackle is kept there to marry the 2 ends. In case of an NUC emergency where normal scope will not keep you from drifting onto the surf line, deploy both anchors to 90% scope, join both bitter ends so that they go through this bulkhead fairlead, then, slowly retrieve one while paying out the extra chain to the other anchor. Again this is an extreme situation, but if your building or refitting, just an added option for you to consider.

Lastly, a little trick that most of you will know, but maybe someone doesn't. If you find yourself anchoring on a wild wet windy night with little reference to your speed, use your depth sounder to confirm that you are actually going astern, before letting go the anchor. When your clear picture of the bottom is filled with painted noise from you backing over your prop wash, you are moving astern!

Fair Winds!
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Old 09-16-2007, 10:00 PM   #20
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Any ideas (short of having a second person at the chain locker) on how to prevent your chain from stacking and falling causing it to foul upon your next anchoring attempt?
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Old 09-16-2007, 10:36 PM   #21
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I think you just hit upon the reason why a lot of sailors are stingy about putting out more chain

Have never seen any spurling system that would lay out the chain for you. I would think that they would be prone to jamming when running the chain out. Best is a wide slippery tray that you can use a stick to push it from side to side when it comes in.

I always put out too much anchor rode which probably comes from my years on a steam yacht where it could take up to 8 hours for the engine to be on standby.

When hauling anchor on my own, it is a 2 stage part where the chain is shortened up to about 2 x scope and laid in the locker to fill any holes along the edges. Then that last bit is brought up without my need to flake it out.
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Old 09-16-2007, 10:44 PM   #22
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Does the Ideal Windlass Company advise what part of the windlass is the major source of the heat that is being generated ?

It could be that compressed air alone will not reach that source. The gearing will take some time to cool down anyway - while the electric motor being enclosed would not be affected by the compressed air.
Hi, nope.

The company simply said "200' at a time, then a cool down period would be needed for the motor." It was the motor that was the issue and its the largest (both physically and power wise) motor that the case can handle. The gearbox most likely dissipates heat through the case (making matters worse for the motor...) and wasn't raised by them as an issue when I was talking with Ideal.

But the cool-down logic from my hubby (an electrical engineer who is used to "pushing" motors harder than I'd like...) is that the current through windings (wire) heats up the wire when working the motor very hard. When you push a motor (hand tool, any electric motor...) it gets hot because of those wires heating up. If you are able to blow compressed air across the wires (in the case of the windlass this would mean running a compressed air line to the case probably through the same holes in the bottom of the case that the wires enter and exit...and assuming the airflow can come in and out of those holes fairly effectively (heating up below-decks for sure) then, we can successful cool the motor so that it can run cooler and longer. We have a nice 150 psi compressor onboard anyway for the hookah (used when cleaning the hull) so its not a big deal to use compressed air if we must.

We've done this before when pushing tools to do more than they were supposed to do. I'm not suggesting that we'd habitually "push" the windlass, but instead, we like to have a solution to help us if we end up needing all that anchor scope and needing to pull it in faster than 200' at a time and "waiting" for a little cool down period for the motor.
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Old 09-16-2007, 11:42 PM   #23
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Hi Redbopeep,

Found this quite interesting as I anchor all the time in deep water and have never worried about overheating or saw any reason to. (Until this thread now!)

I have a Lofrans Titan B windlass similar design to yours w/ 24v large motor. The heavy gearing is all in a 140 wt gear oil bath and I can't see that getting worrisomely hot.

The boat is 26 years old, just 2 years for me though and a 65ft schooner. Anchor windlass is the original.

Last month I just pulled the motor for my first time to check the brushes and windings. Normal wear, no signs or smell of overheating. Before this, when operating in a deep pick up I have felt the feed wires to the windlass and they were warm but not hot.

I'm surprised that some systems need to use compressed air for cooling. Usually I am only operating for a few minutes at a time, before having to straighten the anchor locker or stop to wash off the mud, so perhaps that's why….slow and easy!
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Old 09-17-2007, 06:13 AM   #24
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Hey, all, I tried to answer the question about the motor heating, but somehow...the response didn't make it through. So, here we go again:

No, Ideal didn't say anything exact source of heat but stated it was the motor that would require the cool down period. Deduction is that the motor is the heat problem not the gears, but could be wrong...From what we know about electric motors and pushing them too hard, the windings/wires do get hot. Compressed air is something we've successfully used to cool down motors on both hand and power tools when pushing things a bit much. We have a good compressor onboard our smaller boat that will move to the cruising boat when we get her back in the water (we use it for tools and for the hookah we use when cleaning the hull) so it wouldn't be difficult to run an air line up into the windlass case (up via the same through deck holes that the power lines go in) and get the air directly to the motor for cooling (though below decks would get hotter since the air would exit below deck, too). The gears certainly should get hot but one would expect the gears to be dissipating heat via the case, only making things worse on the motor. We'll see if this works once the boat is back in the water. Else, we'll be looking at adding an electric motor to that manual windlass that I posted earlier. We have the most powerful motor (and its physically large) that this case can handle, so we'd have to go to a different windlass if this won't get us more than 200' at a time.

Other stuff:

My photo shows a great capstan that is larger and nicer than the one that sits atop our Ideal Windlass (but works the same, of course). Instead of two gypsies, ours is set up with a horizonal capstan on one side and a chain gypsy on the other side. Also, we'd have to fork over something like $2700 to get the pretty, shiny case in stainless steel. Our case is regular steel and painted. It is a maintenance issue to keep the steel case rust-free and if we keep this particular windlass, we will likely have another case fabricated locally or fork over the $2700 for the Ideal Windlass company case.

Pelagic is one of the few folks that we've met in person or online who "agree" with having as much chain as we do. With our 600 ft, I'm feeling like a light weight compared to Pelagic's 2 x 630 ft. Holy cow. I'm worried about the hobby-horse effect that having 600 ft of chain + anchor so far forward will cause the boat (the ground tackle+windlass are very far forward at more than 2000# in all and the counterbalance is about 2300# of fuel under the cockpit seating area.) I cannot imagine doubling that forward weight. But, even if I could imagine it, we simply don't have the room to carry twice the anchor chain It takes a really big locker as it is. That is why we'll end up having a spool on deck for the second anchor's rope rode.

Pelagic, I'm scratching my head about how to deploy those two anchors as you suggest to get the additional scope. Can you explain (give me baby steps if you must) further? Someone else has suggested to us that we shackle our chain in the middle and use the bitter end of our chain for a second anchor--thus we'd be running with 300' on each anchor, but have the ability to put out the full 600' if needed. So, this is the second time I've heard something similar.

It sounds like you've been working with some very hefty windlasses in the past--have they been electric? And, were they 24 or 36 V?

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Old 09-17-2007, 06:19 AM   #25
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OK, I see there was a page 2 to this topic! DA....sorry for saying the same thing twice and Pelagic has already answered my 24/32 volt question... Thanks!
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Old 09-17-2007, 09:30 AM   #26
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Hi Redbopeep! Thanks for the welcome. Did try to answer your personal message, which I hope you got, as I don’t see any record in my sent box. Did that answer your anchor question?
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Old 09-17-2007, 04:15 PM   #27
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We started out cruising with a manual windlass. Geez just about killed me! I use to joke that I couldn't eat breakfast before we hauled up the anchor if we were in over 35ft of water. With 180-190 feet out I was ready to chunder by the time I got it all in. Even years later I still smirk to myself with my big toe on the button!

Points to ponder for choosing an electric or hydraulic windlass

1. Almost always you will have your engine on when moving and hauling in the chain so power is not a concern

2. In emergency situations when you have to clear out NOW an electric windlass allows you pull the anchor up without any physical energy. Ok pushing the button! Much better to focus what is happening at the moment without being exhausted gulping for air.

3. Allows you to reanchor anytime you are uncomfortable. Having to manually haul in all the chain many times you might stay put. Comment posted earlier above I agree with.

4. Dual use of the windlass you can have someone hoist you to the top of the mast easily and quickly.

5. The windlass should be big enough to haul at least 2x the weight of your chain and anchor. We almost always pull ourselves forward when retrieving the chain. Remember if you get stuck on a reef having the additional power may just save your vessel.

6. Our windlass is not as fast as some but we have never had a problem with it since we installed it. We have 300' of 3/8 BBB and a 20kg anchor

We have had excellent luck using Lighthouse brand model 1501 windlasses. The motor is NOT a starter motor used in many of the windlasses. This design has NEVER needed a cool down time.

http://www.lighthouse-mfg-usa.com/

We have to flake our chain because our chain locker is so shallow. 39' boat 28' water line = small chain locker. But we recently saw an excellent idea for chain lockers that are slightly larger and a self-flaker system.

Our friends took an old aluminum dive tank. Removed and plugged the valve hole. Cut off the top 14-18"inches of the tank and mounted this directly below the hawse pipe. (Length is dependent on depth of chain locker) As the chain came in it would get pushed to the side allowing for more chain. They said it worked very well and were happy with it.

Last just a comment

Use of a snubber is almost always a good idea. Getting the load off the windlass and allowing stretch

helps.

We use a second short piece of line tied around the chain and looped back over the windlass just in case the snubber should break. We had friends loose their boat in Fiji when a 180-degree wind shift put them on a lee shore. A fierce squall caused the snubber burst and all the weight of the pitching boat pulled the remainder of the chain off the windlass. They went up on a reef and the boat was a total loss. The use of a second line many folks will laugh at thinking its over kill but it only takes a moment to put on along with the snubber and if we never need it then it will not hurt anything

Good luck in your choice. I agree with most everyone that using an electric or nonmanual windlass is a good idea and you will be happy especially when you anchor in a deep anchorage.

Kind regards

Chuck

Jacaranda

www.jacarandajourney.com
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Old 09-17-2007, 05:05 PM   #28
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Great link! I like that lighthouse windlass a lot!
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