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Old 01-19-2010, 09:48 AM   #15
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Hi Roger,

I am very interested in your setup - my own experience of installing a similar system on a catamaran drew lots of criticism at the period when the usual comment regarding multihulls was

"of course they capsize, they can't go to windward etcc. In addition to having hydraulic motors I also had an hydraulic windlass.

Richard
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Old 01-10-2011, 10:44 AM   #16
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Diesel electric drives are inefficient and complicated and diesel Hydraulic drives are even more so. Invest in the best diesel engine you can afford and couple it as simply as possible to the best prop for application. The biggest container ships in the world have one large diesel midships and a shaft that runs for 100s of metres and this is still much more efficient than diesel electric drives. When you think about it logically you don't get anything for nothing otherwise all we would need to do is get a large flywheel build it up to speed and connect this to a prop and it would never stop in the same sense when we change one form of energy to another we lose energy/ efficiency and are making the whole thing more complicated and expensive. I have seen some very slick sculptural but not practical French Cats trying to promote their diesel electric drives they crap on about the fact that the engine revs don't have to fluctuate hence better fuel consumption, how often when crusing for economy do you change the revs of your engines.
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Old 01-10-2011, 11:32 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Up and away View Post

Diesel electric drives are inefficient and complicated and diesel Hydraulic drives are even more so.
Up and Away

Agree that Electrically Driven drives in the marine environment which have to be powered by combustion engines are not living up to the Hype - however they are very successfully used in a rail environment.

As for Diesel Hydraulic drives being MORE inefficient and complicated - this combination is very successfully utilized in the Earth Moving and Mining Industry and by the Commercial fishing fleets. My own experience using a Yanmar diesel engine driving a Cessna pump in turn driving 2 Cessna motors driving the Cat's 2 propellers is very positive.
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Old 01-10-2011, 07:17 PM   #18
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The "weak link" of a traditional diesel propulsion system in a yacht is really the transmission, IMHO. When folks get around this matter by using electric drive or hydraulic drive, I believe they have the right idea. In a multi-hull, it is really a great idea to employ electric drive or hydraulic.

In today's marketplace, vendors are trying to tout electric drive/hybrid as something really hi-tech; the hype is crazy and sadly, these systems are often overpriced and poorly engineered. That need not be the case. We have an old, old, old monohull boat that originally had a hybrid gas genset/electric drive propulsion system--installed way back in 1931 when the boat was new! Our boat, the owner, and that system were much written about in the 1930's Yachting magazines as it was the "first" gas-electric drive hybrid private yacht known. The drive system employed two 10 kW gas generators and one 25 kW electric drive motor. It worked wonderfully to propel the boat at 60% hull speed with one generator running and zero float on the batteries and 72% of hull speed with both generators running and zero float on the batteries. The owner loved it and only stated that he never used the system on batteries alone, thus should have not put in such a big battery bank. When he sold the boat in the late 30's the next owner removed the electric drive/generator system and put in a huge single gas motor. Each owner since has re-powered with a regular diesel (not gas) powerplant. We considered going back to electric drive with two diesel (not gas) gensets, but the owner previous to us had purchased a brand new diesel engine for install and that came with the boat. We just couldn't justify the cost of ignoring that new engine and getting set up with proper electric drive. However, we will someday do it to restore the boat to her original power configuration and because we think it makes good sense. Similarly, diesel/hydraulic drive is also very sensible.

Fair winds,
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Old 01-22-2011, 08:44 AM   #19
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[QUOTE=redbopeep;1294687035]

The "weak link" of a traditional diesel propulsion system in a yacht is really the transmission, IMHO. When folks get around this matter by using electric drive or hydraulic drive, I believe they have the right idea. In a multi-hull, it is really a great idea to employ electric drive or hydraulic.

In today's marketplace, vendors are trying to tout electric drive/hybrid as something really hi-tech; the hype is crazy and sadly, these systems are often overpriced and poorly engineered. That need not be the case. We have an old, old, old monohull boat that originally had a hybrid gas genset/electric drive propulsion system--installed way back in 1931 when the boat was new! Our boat, the owner, and that system were much written about in the 1930's Yachting magazines as it was the "first" gas-electric drive hybrid private yacht known. The drive system employed two 10 kW gas generators and one 25 kW electric drive motor. It worked wonderfully to propel the boat at 60% hull speed with one generator running and zero float on the batteries and 72% of hull speed with both generators running and zero float on the batteries. The owner loved it and only stated that he never used the system on batteries alone, thus should have not put in such a big battery bank. When he sold the boat in the late 30's the next owner removed the electric drive/generator system and put in a huge single gas motor. Each owner since has re-powered with a regular diesel (not gas) powerplant. We considered going back to electric drive with two diesel (not gas) gensets, but the owner previous to us had purchased a brand new diesel engine for install and that came with the boat. We just couldn't justify the cost of ignoring that new engine and getting set up with proper electric drive. However, we will someday do it to restore the boat to her original power configuration and because we think it makes good sense. Similarly, diesel/hydraulic drive is also very sensible. Fair winds,

G'day you two & 'Mahdee'. I think I here your tone of voice, bit lower than Brenda's. Re: Multihull propulsion; What is wrong with a new approach, like a high performance, efficient, fuel thrifty & smooth running motor coupled with a 'water-jet'. These, modern 'water-jets coupled to a suitable motor are EXTREMELY efficient. They have 'little' to no drag (very low profile appendages) & also are great for steering. Can't think of why people have not thought of this very efficient method. A very important factor - is the whole system is 'low profile' within the hulls & does NOT weigh very much at all. As I'm only slightly over the hill, 71 in Feb. - I may well be missing the point totally. A water-jet is extra efficient when moving a vessel over the water more so when that vessel doesn't weigh very much compared to a monohull such as yours where I'm sure it would not be applicable. Please straighten me out (not tied to a pole in an ants nest). Thanks, 'JJ-geri-hat-trick'
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Old 01-22-2011, 04:06 PM   #20
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Hey there Silver Raven, it was actually me, Brenda, commenting. David seldom joins us here on CL. I just asked him about what he thinks of water jets and he says--great regarding places where there are lots of swimmers, obstacles, ice, etc in the water. Things that would hurt a prop or be hurt by a prop.

The ducting size requirements for a large heavy displacement vessel might be a bit much whereas a lightweight vessel, good. L ets see--big holes through the timbers... you get the drift.

Well, gotta go now, have a great time with this topic--I hope someone else comments on the water jet prop idea for cats.
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Old 01-23-2011, 09:50 AM   #21
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Not a Cat but a Trimaran, very rich friend had a Norman Cross 48 Tri decided that his engine and prop were not giving him the speed he wanted, so he installed a Hamilton Jet.

(His tri similar to another friend's "Querida" - here's picture QUERIDA H. Haight\'s 48 N Cross Tri.jpg

Wow, we took off from shelter cove in Hong Kong and he decided that we would go clockwise around Victoria island and stop for celebrations at the Royal Hong Yacht Club in Causeway

Bay - well we got as far as Green Island when the engine stopped - no diesel !! Up with the sails, good breeze, HOWEVER having removed the previous engine/transmission/prop-shaft/propeller AND RUDDER because the Hamilton jet in addition to providing forward thrust it also steers the boat.

VHF to the yacht club - 'please send 2 'jerry' cans diesel'. Needless to say when we finally sat down in bar - much ribbing.

Here's link to Hamilton Jet :- C L I C K
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Old 01-23-2011, 07:43 PM   #22
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From current own experience I would like to add a hot air heating system, run on diesel, to the list.

My present port Gibraltar currently is WET, WINDY (F6-8) and COLD!

And also a sensible wine storage - in my case for tempered red and chilled rose.
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Old 06-04-2011, 06:48 PM   #23
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on " # External dagger boards to improve windward ability "

here is one issue that makes for dagger boards. try pulling in to the baths at noon and all the spaces are gone unles you have a 23" draft like on my 47' cat. Then you can anchor reall close to shore or tuck into palces where other boats can't go in the bahamas. You won't find a keel cat with shalow draft. ( 30" for a 45 footer) also it seems to me you better interior space for the bilge storage or head clearance wihtout a keel.
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Old 06-06-2011, 01:43 AM   #24
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Quote:
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on " External dagger boards to improve windward ability "

here is one issue that makes for dagger boards. try pulling in to the baths at noon and all the spaces are gone unles you have a 23" draft like on my 47' cat. Then you can anchor reall close to shore or tuck into palces where other boats can't go in the bahamas. You won't find a keel cat with shalow draft. ( 30" for a 45 footer) also it seems to me you better interior space for the bilge storage or head clearance wihtout a keel.
Gooday David. Informative comments. We could use more of them & form you as well. I've been a 'multihull-guy' for a tad-bit now & can never fully appreciate 'fixed-keels' on 'multihulls'. It's always seemed to my to be - self-defeating - in purpose & intent (intended use of), but then I'm only 70 (56 yrs into Multi's) so don't know much more than - some of the questions. Nice yacht you have there! Used to sail with & against Lokie & Beryl over quite a time some years back. Had several acquaintances that weathered that 'super-storm' & close designer/sailor friends in the 'land of the long white cloud'. Tennant (deceased), Barker, Orr & others. I'll get there yet !!!

Many cruising people (owners & crew) would be wise to read the whole saga of that event as much knowledge would be learned which would make for safer trips over a whole life-time !!!!!

How did you go finding a 'crew/friend' compatitable sailor type person? Wish I was closer, for sure but I've fallen in love with the 'warm' parts of SE Asia. Should be able to 'do' the - Darwin to Ambon & then the 'cruise-in-company' in 2012. Didn't get it all to happen for this year, darn! Ran out of time & some money. The whole Darwin to Ambon event is a tad-bit expensive in getting the yacht up to scratch to compete but the 'cruising in company' & living in that part of the world is very cost effective & not overly dangerous. I think anything under 20* C is far to cold for enjoyable sailing & the maximum enjoyment of this way of life. Great 'profile' & bio. Thanks for allowing us into your world. Wish you 'fine conditions' & supa company. Do write some more gems of knowledge, Please. Ciao, from 'down-under' 'jj-geri-hat-trick' james
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Old 06-09-2011, 01:31 AM   #25
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Hate to disagree but dagger boards are an absolute not have for me. Too many break or hang up and they don't work nearly as well as short keels. Break one in the Pacific atolls and you will be waiting many weeks to have one shipped in. Hang one up and you will rue the day you got them. The surface area is way too small in comparison to short keels. I prefer short keels for a boat that is cruising...especially in remote locations for extended period of time or long passages. The very few times you may choose to anchor shallow doesn't over ride the detraction's. I can't see any advantage in anchoring in 12 inches of water over 30 inches of water. I always shoot for a minimum of 5 feet and most comfortable above 10 feet of water. The keel on a catamaran has effect on bilge storage, but opposite to what was stated. The keels are not like mono hull keels, bolted in place. They are fiberglass part of the hull. Usually they incorporate a small empty pocket inside, below the hull floor, so that any water flows into them and is pumped out, being the lowest part of the boat. Some boats use the keel as small tanks for waste water. Many just are glass over foam. It's also a protector for the props.

This is JMO.
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Old 02-20-2012, 12:54 PM   #26
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Lots of good ideas in these posts, enjoyed reading them. Will tell you what mine look like when i finally get it !
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Old 02-20-2012, 12:58 PM   #27
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To Silver Raven, Ahoy. I have just come from Darwin, and the thing that I like about the various Races / Cruises in company etc, was the reduced costs for various sailing permits especially into Indonesia. I shall be heading back home to Dinah Beach and the wednesday night entertainments, until I too am ready to head off north with the fleet !

Arohanui
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Old 04-28-2012, 05:53 AM   #28
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Default Electric propulsion

I took delivery of my boat in December of 2011 and since then sat at the drawing board debating electric propulsion versus diesel propusion. The conclusion was 2 X 12Kw motors at 144 Volt with a 22Kw genset with a 12 lead acid forklift batery bank totalling 3Kw amp hours. This configuration had several advantages of which the elimination of gas is the most important advantage to my mind. The sound a smell of diesel is absent and the electric motors (Approx 48Hp each) repond almost instantaneous. Another advantage is the back charge when sailing. True i know that back charge realy work on sailing speed above 5 knots, but its free! For backup the genset kick in at at 60% batery levels meaning in about 5 years i would need to renew my bateries. I cary 600L diesel fuel which would last me for many months. I am of the opinion that this hybrid sytem is the ultemate.
With the electrical power at my disposal i do not have to adjust my lifestyle to much and i can have a oven and dishwasher, i am lazy so these options seemed attractive. Cost wise i have not completed the comparisson but i am of opinion its slight more as opposed to two Yanmars using diesel.
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