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Old 03-25-2008, 06:33 AM   #1
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Hi

I replied to an ad (not here) for crew for a crossing of approx 1250 nautical miles on a 60ft monohull. They advertised that it was a shared expenses trip and crew expected to help in all duties. The cost of this per crew member, per day, was US$120 and this covered food , fuel ,rdf life raft check etc (not sure what the etc is). I replied saying that this was a commercial trip and they replied no it wasn't, this was the daily cost for most off shore passages. There would have been 4 of us on the boat and 2 would have been the paying crew. In light of other forums, I'd be interested on everyone's thoughts on this.

PS Lighthouse I hope I posted this in the right place?
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Old 03-25-2008, 08:16 AM   #2
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Hi Kiwicruiser

Thanks for sharing this here.

That is an ABSOLUTE commercial venture and if the vessel AND skipper is not inspected, documented and registered to carry paying passengers ("crew") it is highly illegal. Should (God forbid) there be an accident the rights of the "crew" to an insurance claim is grossly compromised and they could find themselves ATTEMPTING to sue the owner in civil court.

Some countries are now aware of this "paying crew" practice - from the French official regulations:

Taking on paying "crew" is not permitted in France - this is considered to be chartering. If a vessel is carrying paying passengers, this must be declared to Customs on arrival in France, the yacht imported and TVA (Value Added Tax) must be paid. (see the Cruising Wiki)

The innocent "crew" don't want to be stuck in some distant port should the vessel be impounded.

People have the right to take up these offers but PLEASE be aware of the possible consequences. Ask questions - ask to see registration documents - ask to see insurance documents - ask to see that the skipper is registered to be in charge of a vessel carrying paying passengers ("crew"). BE WARNED!

ANYTHING MORE THAN BEING ASKED TO SPLIT THE FOOD BILL EQUALLY AT THE FOOD STORE WILL LEGALLY CONSTITUTE "PAYING FOR PASSAGE" IN MOST LAW COURTS AROUND THE WORLD.

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Old 03-25-2008, 08:30 AM   #3
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Kiwicruiser et al,

As a senior coast guard officer (even though I am currently seconded to other duties), I would like to endorse the above statement by Lighthouse.

AS A WARNING

A. To the crew - avoid such offers like the plague. You could end up, as a worse case scenario and, as Lighthouse mentioned, God forbid, as an invalid due to an accident on board and unable to get the economical support you would need as the vessel was not properly certified, inspected and insured. Once the owner is bankrupt your chances of obtaining compensation are, in reality, zero.

B. To the owner / Skipper - don't think of doing this kind of thing! Again, at worst, you could end up pennilless and have the issue of compensation hanging arrouind your neck as well as the guilt of knowing what suffering your actions have caused others. Otherwise, even if there is no injury, you could well end up with some pretty high fines to pay.

Please folks, for your own sakes, don't get involved in this illegal activity.

Aye // Stephen
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Old 03-25-2008, 01:52 PM   #4
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I have just had to go through an exercise of calculating my foreign expenses for the past many years. In 2000 we spent $70.00 per day. That included two years' annual health insurance premium; round trip flight for two people from Singapore to the US East coast; a marina slip for about 6 months, food, etc., etc. In other words, 2000 was a very expensive year for the two of us and it STILL cost only $70/day, or $35/day per person.

I decided to find out how much a sybaritic trip on a cruise ship would cost. All the food you can eat, people to wait upon you, entertainment, hot and cold running water all the time, etc., etc. I went to the Celebrity Cruises website, and came up with the following.

Caribbean. 5 days, price per day per person: inside cabin, $80; outside (sea view) cabin, $100; "veranda" cabin, $120.

Caribbean. 11 days, price per day per person (much more interesting intinerary than the one above): inside cabin, $104; outside cabin, $118; "veranda" cabin, $173.

Now WHY would you want to work hard and occasionally be uncomfortable, and be following somebody else's itinerary, for more than it would cost to take a relaxing trip on a cruise ship? (No, I can't imagine taking a cruise ship cruise, but I wanted to compare a professional cruise.)

Moorings will charter a 51' monohull for $1005 per day, which would cost six people (there are 5 cabins in this boat) $167.50 per day, and Moorings makes a significant profit on the boat.

So. What do you think? I have no idea what the start/end points of that trip were, but if it's just a passage with no stops, you are getting ripped off big time to start, and don't even have the safety and security of it being a legal booking with the associated required insurance and skipper/crew qualifications/licensing.

You have really piqued my interest on this one. For that price you could fly to the US and join a cruise ship!

tell, me, who had the cheek to offer this with a straight face?
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Old 03-25-2008, 02:24 PM   #5
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I crew a lot of boats, IMHO asking crew to pay $120 per day is totally outrageous.

Still, a bit more information would be appreciated.

Are you a novice sailor looking for training? Is this a guy just wanting to move his boat?

A skipper being paid to deliver a boat then advertising for crew who he also expects to pay him?

Regardless, this is absolutely a commercial venture. Even for total novice crew one should only expect to pay for their share of food aboard, 10-15 dollars per crew/day max. Even that amount is questionable.

I'd advise you to run away from this guy as quickly as possible. (although I'd love to see the link to his post!)
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Old 03-25-2008, 09:51 PM   #6
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Quote:
(although I'd love to see the link to his post!)

"I replied to an ad (not here) for crew for a crossing of approx 1250 nautical miles on a 60ft monohull"
It was on another crewfinder apparently.
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Old 03-26-2008, 07:07 AM   #7
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thanks for your comments so far, I was interested to see what you thought of US$120 a day even if it was a commercial venture...although this is their reply {abridged}. "hi no we are not doing a commerical venture.this is what the daily costs are for most offshore passsages for crew unless you are in the carribean and hold tickets .Toget those you need seatime which is what we can do as being a commerical captain can sign you off.Most boats going offshore can not afford to take people for free". I don't know if the captain teaching navigation skills and signing a sealog accounts for any of the $120? However they only did say the expenses was for 'share passage expenses and experience' in the ad. No this doesn't include any stops along the way. They are delivering a charter boat from our season which is ending to the Pacific season.Jeanne, we too thought about the Cruise Ship comparison. Friends of ours did a weeks cruise, inside cabin, you know one of those late in the season deals. They got all the food they could eat, entertainment, a few south pacific island stops for NZ $1,000 each = $US793. For boat experienced but not yacht experienced newbies that would love to get into a sailing experience (and my partner is a mean fisherman) the cruise option does sound tempting but we just ain't those type of people, just like others here I'd say. Try fishing off a cruise boat! Cheers
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Old 03-26-2008, 08:32 AM   #8
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Quote:
To get those you need seatime
In other words, they are SELLING "seatime" - commercial!

This is very often the bait that is used. However, you can get that "seatime" (and have your logbook signed off) on ANY passage - a genuine cruiser MAY ask you to contribute an equal share of the food costs (US$5 - US$10 per day). Normally, a genuine cruiser will cover the crew's overheads in exchange for their duties and assistance aboard.
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Old 03-26-2008, 02:04 PM   #9
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So this "captain" is a delivery skipper being paid to deliver the boat, or a charter captain bringing his charter boat up island. He really is cheeky, eh? Even gets people to pay to work for him!

If he's chartering his boat in the islands, I wonder if he's doing it legally with a proper work visa? What do you think?

The annual exodus from NZ to the islands is such that I would think that you could find a berth on one of many boats leaving soon, paying little if anything. Many of the Kiwi boats need an extra crewmember or two anyway to qualify for offshore.

Many of the cruisers will stop at Minerva Reef before continuing on. That would be nicer than someone who is in a hurry to get up to his paying grounds, eh?

I hope you find something. Keep looking.
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Old 03-27-2008, 07:50 PM   #10
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Turn him, and his ad into the authorities. Let's see if he can make them understand the cost??????
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Old 03-28-2008, 01:48 PM   #11
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Have just read this post.

This is certainly a commercial venture.

I should know as am a commercial operator and some vessels do take on "paying crew" however never advertise like this!

BTW these vessels are in full commercial survey or class, registered to carry passengers with qualified crew.

There are too many cowboys that seek to make a quick buck illegally, preying on others with uninsured unregistered vessels.

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Old 03-28-2008, 03:28 PM   #12
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Thank you for this bashfordg.

It is good to hear the opinion of a serious operator in the industry. I am sure, as such, you concur with the stance taken by this forum.

Aye // Stephen
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Old 04-18-2008, 12:23 AM   #13
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Hi,

I can see that this is a heated topic. In my opinion all arrangements are valid as long as people freely engage in them. I can also understand that this site is for non-commercial exchanges. I hope I don't ignite more futile debate with my opinion.



What I am really interested in is the legal consequences that have been vaguely cited several times. It is very surprising to me (and to many others judging by the posts) that sharing expenses (such as food, fuel, docking) can be considered running an unreported business.

Could you guys document specific cases or point to sources of information?



As a way of example I'd like to discuss a couple of hypothetical cases:



A) If you go on a trip with several people, driving you own car and sharing the gas expenses, can that be considered an enterprise? Do you need to have a professional driver license, etc.? Could your insurance deny coverage because of that?



Some boat owners cover all the expenses of their crew. Could that be considered an unreported paid job? Could the crew claim employee benefits from the skipper?

Thanks


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Old 04-18-2008, 12:29 AM   #14
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Gosh!, sorry for the multiple posts. This is the first time I use this forum and I have completely screwed it...
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