Bernard Moitessier - His Boats, Voyages And Ideas

[dokondr]

Originally Posted by Seafarer

The unstayed masts on Freedom boats are made of carbon fiber and are much lighter than you would think. Add up the weight of all the standing rigging on a stayed masts and you would be amazed! Especially a boat "over-rigged" for heavy-weather sailing. The hull is designed with added buoyancy to support the weight and I've never heard of a freestanding rig making a boat more likely to pitchpole. A jib out on a bowsprit would likely have more of an effect than a freestanding mast in that regard.

There are many boats in the Freedom line-up, my personal favorite being the early center-cockpit Freedom 40s, but they aren't pilot house boats....

Freedom is a nice boat, sure. And cat schooner rig should allow go up closer to the wind, I think. I was always wondering on the term "cat schooner", does it come from abbreviating "cutter schooner"? What is the history of this rig, when and where "cut schooner" came into being first of all?

[JeanneP]

"CATBOAT: A catboat (alternate spelling: cat boat), or a cat-rigged sailboat, is a sailing vessel characterized by a single mast carried well forward (i.e., near the bow of the boat).

Although any boat with a single sail and a mast carried well forward is 'technically' a catboat, the traditional catboat has a wide beam approximately half the length of the boat, a centerboard, and a single gaff-rigged sail."

quoted from Wikipedia, CATBOAT

[dokondr]

Originally Posted by JeanneP

"CATBOAT: A catboat (alternate spelling: cat boat), or a cat-rigged sailboat, is a sailing vessel characterized by a single mast carried well forward (i.e., near the bow of the boat).

Although any boat with a single sail and a mast carried well forward is 'technically' a catboat, the traditional catboat has a wide beam approximately half the length of the boat, a centerboard, and a single gaff-rigged sail."

quoted from Wikipedia, CATBOAT

Thanks for the clarifications. I know catboats, though it never occurred to me that cat-schooner originates from a catboat.

BTW, catboat rig and beamy aft are very unsafe for cruising in south seas.

As for freestanding fiberglass masts on Freedom - how one can possibly repair these in cruise?

And also how strong are her huge portholes to the breaking waves?

[dokondr]

Looking for a 34 - 36' ketch I came across these two Bruce Roberts designs:

1) Roberts 36 ketch:

http://www.brucerobe...description.htm

L.O.D. 11.20 m 36' 9"

L.W.L. 8.76 m 28' 9"

BEAM 3.35 m 11' 0"

DRAFT (lead ballast) 4' 0"

(scrap steel ballast) 4' 9"

DISPL. (Fg or Wood) 14,750 lb (steel) 18,000 lb

BALLAST 6,275 lb

AUX. PWR 20 TO 33 hp

2) Centennial Spray 36

http://www.brucerobe...description.htm

L.O.D. ( HULL) 11.05 m 36' 4"

L.W.L. 9.85 m 32' 4"

BEAM 3.96 m 13' 0"

DRAFT 1.30 m 4' 3"

DISPLACEMENT 12,700 kg 28,000 lb

Both are quite beamy, I think.

Any other comments?

Which one will go better wind-ward, what do you think?

[redbopeep]

Hi there,

Sorry to say I can't tell you which would go better to windward. The Spray has a lot of windage--I like the looks of the other better. However, that's not helpful is it?

Are you considering building one of these? Where are you located right now? A lot of US boatyards have half-built Roberts sitting around.

Regards,

[dokondr]

Originally Posted by redbopeep

Are you considering building one of these? Where are you located right now? A lot of US boatyards have half-built Roberts sitting around.

I am thinking about building in Europe. Unfortunately, so far, I can't find really good ketch designs (plans) in 34 - 36' range.

Another design I was considering before setting firmly on a small ketch was Pratique 35:

http://www.dixdesign.com/pr35.htm

[redbopeep]

It is shown in your link as a cutter. In the size you wish, a sloop or cutter rigged vessel would be very nice. Why go for the ketch? A split rig only really helps you when the sail sizes become quite large (then it is so nice to have shorter masts and smaller sails that the split rig of ketch or schooner provide). So--with a boat under 40'...why bother with making it a ketch?

Why will you build a boat yourself rather than buy one? It takes so many hours to build a boat that unless you regular job has you making minimum wage or you are a retired person, you are likely better off simply purchasing a production boat or a used custom boat or one that someone has built to "almost done" state. Better to be sailing than building, no?

What is your timeframe for building/buying your boat and for sailing it? Will you cruise or is this for weekend and vacation use?

[dokondr]

Originally Posted by redbopeep

It is shown in your link as a cutter. In the size you wish, a sloop or cutter rigged vessel would be very nice. Why go for the ketch? A split rig only really helps you when the sail sizes become quite large (then it is so nice to have shorter masts and smaller sails that the split rig of ketch or schooner provide). So--with a boat under 40'...why bother with making it a ketch?

I plan to sail mostly singlehanded for weeks without landfall including south seas. I will cruise and live aboard. Ketch split rig allows to set the safest combination of sails for all wind/seas conditions as it distributes forces that boat endures more evenly. I need to be able to take a nap without being afraid to be knocked down by a sudden blow and still making progress on the passage when I am asleep.

Originally Posted by redbopeep

Why will you build a boat yourself rather than buy one? It takes so many hours to build a boat that unless you regular job has you making minimum wage or you are a retired person, you are likely better off simply purchasing a production boat or a used custom boat or one that someone has built to "almost done" state. Better to be sailing than building, no?

What is your timeframe for building/buying your boat and for sailing it? Will you cruise or is this for weekend and vacation use?

I am thinking about building a boat because I can't find the production one with the features I need:

- Steel hull

- Long /cut-out keel

- Stern-hung rudder to directly connect self-steering device

- Pronounced bowsprit

- Ketch rig

- Double steering from cockpit and from inside cabin safe from breaking waves. No pilot-house that can be smashed away by seas.

My time frame to get the boat (one way or another) is 2 years.

[redbopeep]

OK, I see your logic though I don't agree with it. I happen to see steel boats as "throw away" construction. I would personally prefer an aluminum hull, a fiberglass hull, or a (traditionally planked, not plywood/cold molded) hull. Steel doesn't meet my own personal cut for a long lasting hull material. But, many people to buy and build steel boats--to each his own, as the saying goes. Are you an accomplished welder? I missed that in the post. Or, when you say you're thinking of building "yourself" do you mean hiring people to build it for you? This is often what people mean when they say they're doing something themselves.

Have you ever sailed a ketch rigged boat solo for a lengthy passage? I believe you may be making a big assumption regarding it being better than the (simpler) cutter or sloop rigged boats of this size. In the general case, I see no benefit for a boat of that small size to have a split rig. It is only when the sails become too big for one person to handle that a split rig is nice to have. Rather, you will have more rigging to deal with--more to handle alone. If your experience cruising with a ketch rigged boat is already extensive, you may have a preference for it. However, IMHO, any boat under 40-45 feet range is just not worth the additional spars and rigging. More lines, covers, stays, sails, everything to install, maintain, inspect and operate. For short-handed or solo sailing, keeping things as simple as possible will really help you to travel safely and to be less tired.

No matter the rig and hull, a good sailor will learn the nuances of the particular boat and then successfully sail that boat. There are numerous cruisers who have taken boats not suited to cruising and...well...cruised for many, many years. Don't box yourself into a corner of having to build the "perfect" boat because you can't find it. That will take longer than 2 years (most likely) even if you're already an experienced boatbuilder (and it sounds like you are not). It is very easy to end up in that corner!

You mention that you wish to have a bowsprit. Our boat has a lovely bowsprit (and a split rig, too, as it is a larger boat) but I must say that if you are concerned about solo sailing and heavy weather (you mention some drama with getting knocked down) having a bowsprit will be no comfort to you. If you have a permanent bowsprit, you will end up having to go out onto it to bring in a sail in rough seas. That will happen at some point. It will not be easy. It will not be fun. Even if you have furling gear, you will likely have a reason that at some point will require you to be on the tip of the bowsprit. In the waves, up and down, alone. Not a happy place. Don't get me wrong--we have an 11' long sprit as it is part of our boat's design. However, my husband has been out on the end, tethered into the jackline (for what good that would do...) as we've crashed through seas and he's been drenched--or as we've gone up and over big waves--he says it is like trying to get something done while on a roller coaster ride. We do not have roller furling gear, but rather we dowse and change the headsail traditionally. So, we're out there more than most would be.

What is your schedule of action? If you want to do this in 2 years--you must have an aggressive schedule to succeed in building a boat--whether it is you building it or someone building it for you. I've asked before--where are you right now? Your profile says home port of Moscow. However, you may not be there...



link to bigger image

[dokondr]

Originally Posted by redbopeep

OK, I see your logic though I don't agree with it.

...

Thanks for your comments and advice. I agree that you have many good points about reducing the amount of rope to handle. To answer your questions:

- I have never said that "I am going to build a boat myself". I live in Moscow and in case I decide to build a boat I will turn to a boatyard in Russia or Europe.

- So far I sailed singlehandedly many different boats from 10' to 38', and up to 43' as a crew, all rigged as Bermudian sloop. Personally for me, riffing the main on 35' - 38' boat in gusty weather is not an easy affair, when I am alone on the boat. Also, from my solo experience, Bermudian sloop is not the ultimate rig for running downwind or reaching on a high seas. That's why I am thinking about ketch rig.

[dokondr]

Bernard Moitessier in "Long Way" writes on hull material:

"It is commonly thought that a steel boat can't be under 30-33 ft, because she would be otherwise too heavy, as the steel plate must be at least 3 mm thick (approx. 1/8 in.) so as not to corrode through too quickly. The hulls of Ophelie, Santiano, Joshua and many other 40 ft boats destined by their owners for blue-water cruising are made of 5 mm steel. If 4 mm had been used, they would be noticeably improved from standpoint of speed and heavy weather sailing. If I were building Joshua over again, I would use 4 mm steel for the hull.

After nearly ten years' experience with Joshua, and my very favorable observations of other steel boats, I would not hesitate to build a 23 ft boat out of 2 mm (5/64 in.) steel if, for plenty of perfectly valid reasons, I now preferred a very small boat whose upkeep would be much cheaper that Joshua's. In my opinion it would be even possible to go 1.5 mm (1/16 in.) for a 20 ft. boat. Corrosion and electrolysis are no danger if proper precautions are taken.

What about aluminum alloys for small boat construction? The first problem is that a boat made of light alloy is very expensive, because of the cost of materials and skilled labor.

...

How about fiberglass for small boats? Take a tin can and a plastic container, and just kick them along a stony path for a couple of miles. No need to say more; the choice between metal and fiberglass is up to individual. But those who pick fiberglass will be especially careful around rocks. And if they have read books on sailing, they will recall that very great sailors like Slocum, Pidgeon, Voss, Bardiaux and Vito Dumas found themselves unintentionally on rocks or aground. During our four month 1965 stay in Tahiti, four yachts hit coral in the Tuamotus. Three were total wrecks within a few hours; the forth escaped with major damage thanks to the keel bolts breaking on impact, which allowed the boat to ride high on her side as far as coconut trees, after passing over the reef. More recently, a fiberglass trimaran being sailed from Tahiti to Hawaii hit a cliff on arrival. Within a few hours the biggest piece of the wreck was not over five feet long. This doesn't mean that a steel boat would have survived under the same conditions, but it would make a big difference in less drastic circumstances, on a reef, for example. Nevertheless fuberglass boats have one fantastic quality; they need practically no maintenance compared with steel or wooden boats. For that reason, I must agree that fiberglass boats can be really welcome, especially when small. And a small boat is easier to handle among coral reefs and in narrow entrances."

[redbopeep]

Ah, yes, reefing. Always a challenge when the sail size gets big. That is the whole benefit of split rig, yes. I know a wonderful fellow who solo sails who decided that everyone should be great at something. His "something" that he decided to be great with...Reefing He said he'd reef and shake out reefs every time the winds changed hour after hour, midnight, 2 am, 3 am, who cares...all the time. The winds would change and he'd reef. Finally after re-doing his reefing lines 3 different ways and countless hundreds of reefing exercises (while he was solo sailing along the West Coast of South America) he decided he'd achieved his goal--he was an expert at reefing. Good plan

Ah, so you were

1. thinking about "having a custom boat built"

rather than

2. thinking about "building a boat"

To me, these are two very different statements. The first is that you're having a boat built by someone other than yourself (you now state this is your plan. That does make sense to me) whereas the second is stating that YOU are physically doing the work of building a boat. Misunderstanding.

Fiberglass only makes sense for production boats. Since you are not looking at production boats, then metal or wood are your best choices. My aversion to steel is personal only. I worked for many years as a structural engineer with steel pressure vessels and steel structures in transportation. I know too much about steel to be happy with maintaining it properly on my own boat. Thus, I avoided steel. And that is the way it goes with boats--we each have something we really want and we each have something we're really avoiding it seems. LOL.

There are many stories of material failures when one hits reefs, rocks, shore, whatever. On the side of steel you have the opportunity for catastrophic failure at sea if you incur corrosion (on the inside of your boat where it cannot be easily inspected) or have a weld defect of significant size for failure. This idea of "significant size" can be very, very small. You may experience a defect with a stress-induced crack growth getting to a size of 3/4" or so and then causing a split that water can ingress the hull. This does happen. If in cold waters, it happens more often since critical size of defect gets smaller with the decreased ductility of steel alloys at low temperatures. Example of that--think of the Liberty Ships during WWII. Example of a defect leaking in a cruising boat...read "Into the Light" by Dave Martin. He tells a story of sailing, with his wife and 3 children aboard their 33 ft steel sailboat, on the way to Iceland (from...?Bermuda or North Carolina? so sorry I can't recall the exact passage) and his boat began to leak. He did a repair underway and later did a weld repair once in Iceland. Interesting little side story about dealing with that leak. Steel is only as good as the original construction and the inspection and maintenance provided to it. Thus--a throw away boat. You can certainly get out sailing quickly and cheaply as possible in a steel boat though. That in itself is very appealing to many people.

Good luck with your project and getting out there cruising (or weekend sailing if that is your goal) as quickly as possible.

[JeanneP]

To add to Brenda's comments a bit.

First, though, I want to comment that nobody is safe from making mistakes - stupid mistakes, mistakes due to inexperience, mistakes just because it was (?)Monday(?). Nobody is immune from them, and as I've said before, things happen at the worst possible time - that's what Murphy's Law is about.

Bowsprit. I was convinced that a bowsprit was a bad idea for us when we met an elderly couple whose boat was terribly beaten up on the bow. Scratches, gouges in the gelcoat and deeper; just nasty damage. When I asked what had happened, they told me that they were caught in some nasty weather and the anchor slipped down from its place on the bow and hung just at waterline, and the seas and motion of the boat swung the anchor against the hull, over and over again until the storm front passed. Until then they were afraid to go forward to retrieve and resecure the anchor. ----- Yes, there were ways to do it long before the weather calmed down, but this couple were unable to do more than just wait in the cockpit. For a single-hander of any age or level of fitness to try it alone would be very scary, IMO. Here's where a steel boat could be holed a lot faster by such a swinging anchor than a fiberglass or wood boat would be. After all our years of long-distance cruising I am keenly aware that mistakes are not just in the realm of the newbies. I have documented lots of our own in our logs long after we would have been considered "experienced." Humility just might be the best sailing lesson of all.

Roller furling headsail on a bowsprit? Wow, do bad things happen at the worst of times with roller furling. Even tied on, falling off a bowsprit would have to be a death sentence for the single-hander.

Split rig. Our Jeanneau Sun Fizz was one of the first "racer/cruisers" and was raced in the 1981 Two-Star - double-handed trans-Atlantic race - to introduce the boat to the US market. It was raced by Jeanneau and was a "cheater" - the rig was about 8' taller than what was standard for this boat from the yard. It was a fractional rig and thus required running backstays. We cruised it this way for several years before we decided to cut the mast down. It was/is a Marconi (Bermuda) rig. The mast, even after we cut it down, was still taller than for most of the 39' sloops we encountered in our cruising. For cruising we used a heavier mainsail, but it was never too heavy or unmanageable for one person to raise/lower/reef. For cruising we had three reef points rather than the two reef points that so many mainsails come with. We were knocked down quite a few times in the first years that we sailed her. Most were the result of mistakes on my(our) part, some were freak winds accelerating through passes. As I/we learned to read the wind better, these knockdowns moved to the realm of "rare". Our most successful strategy was the cruiser's mantra - reef early - if you are thinking about reefing, it's time to reef.

It is rare to see a split rig on racing boats anymore. Since in races go-fast is the most important consideration, you might reconsider your arguments in favor of a split rig. One consideration: nothing you do is going to enable you to outrun strong gales and, IMO, running downwind in gales is a scary and potentially dangerous tactic.

As for crawling your way off a lee shore, it seems to me that two sails would be difficult for a single-hander, and three sails (foresail, main and mizzen) would be even harder.

Under most circumstances, two-handed long-distance cruising is really single-handed sailing for 1/3 of the time.

There are two other threads on Cruiser Log discussing steel versus fiberglass. Here's the one I started several years ago,

Steel vs. Fiberglass as a hull material

Lastly, I can't seem to find any statistics regarding the number of sailboats lost at sea with information regarding the hull material. For that matter, I can't come up with any information on the number of sailboats out there giving any statistics on the hull material. From my own experience, steel hulls were the rare cruising boat, and in general I saw them primarily where French cruising boats were in the majority. Given the relative rarity of steel sailboats, I'm not surprised that it is easier to come up with stories of fiberglass boats being lost on reefs or other such damage than stories of such problems with steel-hulled boats.

[dokondr]

Joshua de Bernard Moitessier

Episode 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRsa4...feature=relmfu

In the second part one can see a small turret / bubble? on Joshua hatch. It looks like this hatch was used to cover the cockpit. Thus cockpit gets transformed to a small cabin from where Bernard could safely steer the boat observing the seas from a small turret?

[dokondr]

Originally Posted by redbopeep

...

Fiberglass only makes sense for production boats. Since you are not looking at production boats, then metal or wood are your best choices.

...

Oh yes, I like wood! If I only could afford it I would go for Paul Gartside's 38 ft Double Ended Ketch:

http://store.gartsideboats.com/colle...nded-ketch-173

With all wood boat strength and beauty there are two great problems to solve:

- Find humongous funds, time and building skills resources

- Make the boat dry

[redbopeep]

Originally Posted by dokondr

Oh yes, I like wood! If I only could afford it I would go for Paul Gartside's 38 ft Double Ended Ketch:

http://store.gartsideboats.com/colle...nded-ketch-173

With all wood boat strength and beauty there are two great problems to solve:

- Find humongous funds, time and building skills resources

- Make the boat dry

Can't speak to the first problem, however many wood boats are bone dry in side including bilge.

[dokondr]

Originally Posted by redbopeep

...

Fiberglass only makes sense for production boats. Since you are not looking at production boats, then metal or wood are your best choices.

...

Do you know any production fiberglass boats no more then 10 - 15 years old good enough for blue water cruising?

I am not talking about old fiberglass boats such as Alberg 35, Pacific Seacruft, Allied Princes, Ocean Lord, Pearson, etc., the boats 20 or more years old. These boats are too old for today.

What production boat from year 2000 and newer can safely bring you around three horns?

There are many goods books, such "The Seaworthy Offshore Sailboat" by John Vigor meticulously enumerating requirements for the offshore cruiser. However none of these books give you the brand names of modern production boats that meet these requirements. Why is that? The answer, I think, is: "Today they don't build production boats for serious offshore cruising in south seas" .

Please, correct me if I am wrong, and give the brand names of such production boats.

[Istioploos]

Dmitri



Some time back I promised to give more details from the book (in Greek) of my friend Nikos Vartzikos who owned a Joshua with which he crossed the Atlantic singlehanded and cruised the Black Sea and Greenland. Here are some scans from his book:



[/size][/color]

I also want to add that Nikos was one of my mentors and encouraged me to undertake long singlehanded voyages.

Vasilis

Travels with S/Y Thetis

[redbopeep]

Start with Hallberg-Rassey

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallberg-Rassy

I will make the bold and broad statement that ANY production boat built today that was designed by the naval architect to be a blue water boat CAN take you safely around all the capes and then some. What is more questionable is whether the particular sailor can do it in a particular boat.

Side path--You may wish to re-visit your thoughts on what is "too old" for today. Some of the really old (mid-60's to late-70's) era solid fiberglass (non cored) hulls are amazingly strong. They're going today as good as they were 35-40 years ago. Further, when you get into "used" boats, IMHO the one's you'll pay too much for are the ones that are almost-brand-new but not quite. Those are the ones that the systems, sails, rigging may all be commanding too much in price vs how much life they actually have left. Whereas the older boats go for much lower prices--often because it is assumed that many things are beyond their life. Think of it like paying for the hull and getting the systems for free. On many of those older boats you can afford to replace many systems components, sails, etc, because you've paid so much less than on an "almost new" boat.

After having said ALL THAT, I cannot point you towards a particular boat. When we were looking for a serious cruising boat, we added additional constraints that you don't have (classic wooden boat by a reputable naval architect of the day (pre-1950's)) so I can't really help you with specifics of high quality, recently built, boats (unless they are wood). Find yourself a yacht broker and start looking at what's on the market. That will help you. We seriously looked for about 18 months before buying a boat (to rebuild). We looked in US, UK, Europe, and South America. We were agnostic regarding initial location of the boat as long as it was already rebuilt/strong/seaworthy or could be rebuilt where it lay.

What is your budget? By that, I don't mean what do you hope to spend--rather how much could you spend if you had to? For example, you may hope to only spend $70K US on a boat fully outfitted for cruising but you've got $200K available if you should find something more costly. Even if you don't share your budget--start thinking about it in realistic terms.

Forget about the boat for a minute--are YOU someone who is going to be sailing high risk (e.g. Southern Ocean or high latitude) solo? You keep alluding to this concept by what you write. What are your sailing experiences, to date, that bring you to the idea that you will be pushing the structural integrity of the hull by solo sailing around the worlds capes? There are a lot of really serious sailors out there cruising some challenging waters in hulls that you've seemingly written off. A music analogy is that you are presenting yourself as an amateur beginning pianist who is ignoring electric keyboards, spinets, consoles, and upright pianos with full-size soundboards but rather will only play on a grand piano of a brand that a highly successful concert pianist would own--perhaps Steinway would do--but only certain vintage, at that. Sure, you're giving up the idea of a concert grand, it's too big for your apartment...Get my drift?

Boats--

Take a look at the people cruising now. The Cruising Wiki has a list of the blogs of many cruising boats:

http://www.cruiserswiki.org/wiki/Cru...and_Narratives

You can spend hours reading these blogs and you'll get an idea of what works and what doesn't from their posts.

I would think someone else with boat-shopping experiences will come along with some helpful suggestions for you shortly here as well.

Fair winds,

[dokondr]

Thanks for your advice, redbopeep.

Originally Posted by redbopeep

...

Forget about the boat for a minute--are YOU someone who is going to be sailing high risk (e.g. Southern Ocean or high latitude) solo? You keep alluding to this concept by what you write. What are your sailing experiences, to date, that bring you to the idea that you will be pushing the structural integrity of the hull by solo sailing around the worlds capes? There are a lot of really serious sailors out there cruising some challenging waters in hulls that you've seemingly written off. A music analogy is that you are presenting yourself as an amateur beginning pianist who is ignoring electric keyboards, spinets, consoles, and upright pianos with full-size soundboards but rather will only play on a grand piano of a brand that a highly successful concert pianist would own--perhaps Steinway would do--but only certain vintage, at that. Sure, you're giving up the idea of a concert grand, it's too big for your apartment...Get my drift?

...

To your analogy I will answer with real-life story. Patrick Childress of Newport, Rhode Island sailed second-hand Catalina 27' around the world after making considerable enhancements to the boat. Later he said: "People occasionally ask me what they should do to beef up their Catalina 27s for an ocean passage and I tell them: 'Buy a different kind of boat.'"

Yes, people sail all kinds of improbable boats around the world, not the boats designed for serious offshore, but the boats they have, I know that. Thanks, for reminding me. ...

Just in case you come across a modern long keel boat, please let me know.