Go Back   Cruiser Log World Cruising & Sailing Forums > Cruising Forums > General Cruising Forum
Cruiser Wiki Click Here to Login

Join Cruiser Log Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 12-02-2007, 03:41 AM   #21
Ensign
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 35
Default

Thank you very much for your post Seer, I do love the idea of a steel boat its funny just the thought of it feels safe. lol The one thing i have to say is after looking around i think it may be hard to find any boat setup just the way i want. I have never heard of Junks so i will research that Thank you. Now a little update. As of 2 weeks ago i have settled some of the legal battles after a very long time and i was shocked to learn i have more money than planed, In another 2 weeks i plan to go look at a Huns Christian i found she is a 1985 36' and the asking price is 1/3 the money i now have, To be honest i have some doubts with this boat as i have read a lot and found that a number of people think of the Huns Christian as being the Caddy of sail boats and with the asking price being so low $49,000 and the work being done on the boat in the last year 2006: New haul out with bottom paint; Prop Polished; New Zincs. I get the feeling( it could be too good to be true) but i am willing to spend the $300 flight cost to look at it. I do not plan the first boat i see but i do have a very short list of boats i am willing to buy. Well thank you all for your advice and i fill update as i know more. John
__________________

__________________
johnar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2007, 05:46 AM   #22
Admiral
 
MMNETSEA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,067
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnar View Post
In another 2 weeks i plan to go look at a Hans Christian i found she is a 1985 36' and the asking price is 1/3 the money i now have, To be honest i have some doubts with this boat as i have read a lot and found that a number of people think of the Huns Christian as being the Caddy of sail boats and with the asking price being so low $49,000 and the work being done on the boat in the last year 2006: New haul out with bottom paint; Prop Polished; New Zincs.
Hi John,

Your expressed doubts about this boat may be very valid !! If this is the one in San Diego, then check out the full specs as provided in the brokers advertisement. There is no clear mention of the Engine = make? hours ? condition ? etc...? Likewise there is no mention of the Transmission , the standing Rigging etc... !!!

Here is a current advertisement for another Hans Christian that is 3ft smaller and 2 years older :-

Hans Christian

Length: 33' Beam: 11.75' Draft: 5.5'

Year: 1983

Type: cruiser

Hull: fiberglass monohull

Engine: 1 diesel inboard

Location: Bellingham, Washington

Asking: $121,500

However, It could still be the buy of the last 25 years - but if you go ahead with the idea, then advice often given on this forum is :- to get your OWN Surveyor to do a full survey for you - at the same get a Marine diesel mechanic/technician to check the engine and transmission thoroughly, including tests under load.

Somehow methinks that this is another of those times that its a good thing " to look the gift horse in the mouth"

All the Best

Richard
__________________

__________________
MMNETSEA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2007, 06:49 AM   #23
Ensign
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 35
Default

I knew something was not right about it. Yes it is the same boat. Yes before i buy any boat i will have it checked out fully. To me it is alot of money and will be my home, i would never buy a home without it being checked. I guess it is back to plan A that is to just go down and do a local search.

Thank you so much. Just showed me i am getting smarter.

John
__________________
johnar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2007, 08:57 AM   #24
Ensign
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 35
Default

I was just thinking (I know big mistake) maybe I should ask for some advice. As you know I am shopping now but with living in the Mid West I will have a lot of travel cost added with having boats pulled and checked by surveyors could become very costly before I even find the right boat. As of yet my search has been very limited to local places and online search more to just get some type of clue to the market. I have also been trying to different types of boat. What I have learn so far is that I am looking for a boat no larger than 40' something 2 to 3 people can handle, large tankage. Where I start to get confused is the rigging. I know I have talk about my Back problems but do not see that as big a problem as some would think. I have read a lot about different rigging but with the lack of experience and advice on different types best for me it is hard. I think it is hard to find the right boat with the right rigging with the right everything, there has to be some kind of trade off. Ok back to the subject at hand. Can anyone offer advice on a way to search for the right boat? I have read that shopping on the west coast you get less boat for your money, on the north east coast better buy for your buck and south east (FL) a lot more boats to pick from. I look at this like buying a home but you can not look at the basement of a boat everything has to be checked by a professional. well to be honest I have some fears of making a mistake to me it is a lot of money. And like many others I would like to get the most for my buck. I understand what you plan to use the boat for plays into it a lot, myself I would like to find my boat and live the first 6 months to a year on the hook around the Keys then do some traveling. As of right now I am single but like I tell my family joking when they say "I will be so lonely" I hope to meet me a nice island girl to have as first mate as always there is some truth in every joke, but with love you never know what will come your way until that day comes I will make use of traveling mates that I have seen post looking to crew for passage. If I ask point blank what will the boat be used for my answer would be cruising. I have done some sailing before but it will be unlike anything I have planned I need some Bad weather experience, after talking to a few friends I have met on here I believe the best way for me to do this is move onto the boat and make more friends that day sail or short trips that will be willing to let me crew and learn the things I need. For the last 33 months this move has been in the planning stage and I have read so much but it is now time to move on to the hands on stage and make the leap. Well I am very sorry that my posts are so long, for some reason when I sit down to post a few words it turns into a book. John
__________________
johnar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2007, 12:24 PM   #25
Moderator
 
JeanneP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,098
Default

I just woke up to snow (SNOW!), and surprisingly low temperatures for snow; 21* F, -6.7* C. What am I doing here?!!!

Which reminds me of our own search for a cruising boat, and the difference a year of experience makes.

We had decided to go cruising "when we retire" and that was when I set out to learn to sail. By the time we bought Watermelon we had sailed on a series of boats from 20' to 30', giving us a reasonable idea of the approximate size we were looking for. Peter figured about 42'. That still left a lot about cruising boats we had no experience with. We had a lot of help and a lot of luck.

Watermelon was 39' and a roomy 39' at that.

I think the best information we got from sailors was from the delivery captains who had lots of experience on many different makes of boat. Doesn't cost much, either - a couple drinks, a pleasant afternoon or evening listening to their stories.

A few years ago, looking for a new boat, we spent far too much time driving up and down the Florida coast looking for a boat, and not finding one. Partly because what we really wanted didn't exist. We sighed deeply, kept eyes and ears open, and a year later found our current Watermelon. Another compromise, but the right boat for us for right now.

The most important thing to keep in mind is "if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is."
__________________
In 1986 we went cruising for a few years. After 20 years and 50+ countries and several oceans, we are STILL "cruising for a few years".

SY WATERMELON |
MV WATERMELON (New) | Cruiser's Dictionary, free ebook

= Cruiser's Dictionary, North America,
JeanneP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2007, 02:24 PM   #26
Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 48
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnar View Post
Thank you very much for your post Seer, I do love the idea of a steel boat its funny just the thought of it feels safe. lol The one thing i have to say is after looking around i think it may be hard to find any boat setup just the way i want. I have never heard of Junks so i will research that Thank you. Now a little update. As of 2 weeks ago i have settled some of the legal battles after a very long time and i was shocked to learn i have more money than planed, In another 2 weeks i plan to go look at a Huns Christian i found she is a 1985 36' and the asking price is 1/3 the money i now have, To be honest i have some doubts with this boat as i have read a lot and found that a number of people think of the Huns Christian as being the Caddy of sail boats and with the asking price being so low $49,000 and the work being done on the boat in the last year 2006: New haul out with bottom paint; Prop Polished; New Zincs. I get the feeling( it could be too good to be true) but i am willing to spend the $300 flight cost to look at it. I do not plan the first boat i see but i do have a very short list of boats i am willing to buy. Well thank you all for your advice and i fill update as i know more. John
Johnar,

I would consider taking a trip to a boaty area and spending a week or so looking around. There are a LOT of boats for sale, many of which aren't actively listed but the yard managers know them etc. In the yard I'm in in ne Florida there must be close to 20 cruising type boats for sale. Many fully rigged and equiped at sacrifice prices. It is a serious buyer's market out there. There is a website called Mahina Expeditions something (google it) where a pretty experienced sailor sets forth a darned good monologue on cruising boats, naming quite a few as good prospects and explaining why. You might peruse that. In any event, getting physically to a boating location and looking at a lot of boats, talking to a lot of sailors etc. I think would be more cost and time efficient for your purposes.

Places like Lauderdale, here in St. Augustine, San Diego, Seattle, etc. would offer up a LOT of information and a lot of boat *eyeballing* in a week or so, and are relatively cheap to get to with an advance air/hotel deal.

Lastly, a friend once advised me to buy a dirty but sound boat, explaining I would make a ton of money just cleaning it up. He was right. Americans tend to buy on 'show', i.e. superficial appearance, thus depressing hugely the price of boats that have been sitting awhile (on the hard is better than just hanging out in the water...) If the hull and rig are sound, the mechanics sound, etc., you could be sitting in harbor refinishing interior wood at your leisure, having saved gobs and gobs of money. I know of several who have purchased boats needing interior refurbing and sailed off to Cartegena, or several ports in Venezuela and for very small daily rates, had their interiors transformed by local expert craftsmen into floating palaces. I mean simply beautiful, and come out waaaaaaaaay ahead on dollars, leaving far more for cruising

Something to consider.

again, good luck and take professional advice It's the most cost effective thing you can do around boats.

seer
__________________
Seeratlas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2007, 03:48 PM   #27
Ensign
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 4
Default

Got to agree with the previous poster, bigtime. I was slapping myself on the back for getting into my somewhat Spartan liveaboard so cheaply until I found out the previous owner had offered it to his dockmates for almost half what I paid for it...with no success...there are a lot of beautiful deals going on at marinas that never make Yachtworld, and a little hanging out and personal exposition over chilled hops might produce opportunities to make the most miserly green with envy...lol
__________________
Anton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2007, 11:49 PM   #28
Ensign
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 35
Default

Thank you all so much I think I will head down to Florida and stay a few weeks a friend of mine offer to let me stay at his home in FT Lauderdale. this should save me some money.

John
__________________
johnar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2007, 01:08 AM   #29
Admiral
 
MMNETSEA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,067
Default

Hi John,

In providing a few answers to your major points that you have identified :_

1. I will have a lot of travel cost added with having boats pulled and checked by surveyors could become very costly before I even find the right boat?

Don't go to survey until you have found a boat that appears in your judgement to be sound , that your fits well within your planned purchase budget , that fits your medium to long term cruising needs. When you are satisfied, then and only then get an experienced Surveyor who is independent of the seller and/or the broker. Negotiate a full condition and market value survey.If the boat is in the water have it lifted for as long as is necessary to check the hull, prop, thru-hulls etc . If on the hard - then a better and less expensive survey can be completed. Most Surveyors do not survey the engine or transmission - but will comment on appearance , Here you should get a qualified marine diesel tech to check them out.

2. So far is that I am looking for a boat no larger than 40' something 2 to 3 people can handle, large tankage ?

Your plan to keep it below 40ft is a good ploy - ie amazing the difference in the asking price between a 39ft and a 40ft -- that 1 foot saves a lot of money. Also remember that measurements in advertisements can be misleading - (a 35 ft boat with 4ft bowsprit is a lot different boat to a 39ft boat without) From a cruising point of view the waterline length is more more significant in that it determines the hull speed of the boat and to a degree the usable space within the boat. The other factor in size is that for every foot of length - the costs of mast, sails , rigging, ground tackle, propulsion system etc etc..increase exponentially. Not to forget that length is the measure of cost when in a marina , every inch is taken into account.

3. Where I start to get confused is the rigging. I have read a lot about different rigging but with the lack of experience and advice on different types best for me it is hard.

I guess you are concerned about 'Standing Rigging' , Rigging that is permanently secured such as shrouds, stays, bob-stays, martingales, and mast pendants. Usually of stainless steel - maybe the best advice as to type etc. , is still to keep it simple , strong (oversize) Norseman or Staylok fittings easier to replace and check than swage fittings. Mast , boom and spreaders; again - nothing fancy but good quality.

4. Can anyone offer advice on a way to search for the right boat? I have read that shopping on the west coast you get less boat for your money, on the north east coast better buy for your buck and south east (FL) a lot more boats to pick from. I look at this like buying a home but you can not look at the basement of a boat everything has to be checked by a professional. myself I would like to find my boat and live the first 6 months to a year on the hook around the Keys then do some traveling. I believe the best way for me to do this is move onto the boat and make more friends that day sail or short trips that will be willing to let me crew and learn the things I need.

It looks like you have already worked out a good plan yourself, add the advice already given by Jeanne, Seer, Anton and others should really help in your search.

To sum up - sit down , fix a top limit for a purchase plus survey budget . Take some time - go to places where there are active liveaboards - delivery skippers - walk the docks - look at the broker's advertisements and if you speak to them get FULL specs. Take plenty pictures - make copious notes - take time to come to a decision.



Richard
__________________
MMNETSEA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2007, 10:50 AM   #30
Commander
 
Peter Owen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 138
Default

While I don't have any particular physical limitations other than a few old rugby injuries which get worse in bad weather, I find plenty of resonance with your concerns about finding the right boat. My concern is that I am not experienced enough to short hand the larger boat that I want for living purposes with a conventional rig.

This leaves me - yes, it's still a work in progress - with the prospect of a smaller boat or having to look for suitable crew for the longer passages envisaged. That is until I came across freestanding rigs which can offer conventional sail plans but also include Cat boats, cat ketches, junk rigs (already mentioned earlier), wing sails etc.

At the moment and until I've got my finances together, of course, I'm still an armchair proponent of this concept but you may find it an interesting to look at some previous related threads on this site. If you want to see some examples for sale, try searching www.yachtworld.com for Freedom (older cat ketches, more "modern" 36-44 footers), Tanton (larger cat ketches with nice layout hull form) or Nonsuch (really nice, very roomy cat boats with loads of space); "Googling" Sponberg, freestanding rig will get you to a site that explains the concept and benefits of the latter.

Hope this helps; good luck with your search and everything else.

See ya.
__________________
Peter Owen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2007, 11:45 AM   #31
Admiral
 
MMNETSEA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,067
Default

Hi Peter ,

Thanks for the direction to Freestanding masts etc. Do you happen to know if there is an owners forum for either of Freedom or Tanton Yachts ??

Had a look at Sponberg - noted that he is a yacht designer with an interest in Free standing

rigs.

Richard
__________________
MMNETSEA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2007, 11:47 AM   #32
Ensign
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 35
Default

Peter Thank you so much for your post and advice. I do not claim to know a lot but i would like to offer a few thing i have learn over the last 2 years. First off set your worries aside about handling the boat alone, there are so many people out there that are looking for a free ride back to port after dropping of a boat or just Crew for other people so they can Travel. I have look at some of the Cats out there and for me i believe they are harder to handle because of the size and the way they handle in bad weather. Yes i am sure others will disagree. With the modern age we live in there are so many aids made now that even a boat in the 50' range can be sailed with one man, Myself i would not even think of it. I will not take a long passage alone no matter what size of boat, i just do not think it is safe. With me i like a nice heavy boat that is slow when i step foot onto the boat time stops i am not in a hurry for anything. If i wanted a travel fast i would buy a plane. With that being said, give me the well built full keel slower boat that has a reliable rigging. I find it funny that people say to find a boat that will fit the type of sailing you will do, day sail, cruising etc. well to me in any case i want a very strong boat if i am out for one hour to 20 days i want to know i will return. I do not know your finances but with me, i was hurt in 05 and had a very long legal battle that is over now thank god but for that time i have made my plans no matter the amount i got i planned to move on a boat. The one thing i would like to say is please do not let lack of money stop you, the longer it is a dream the more likely it may pass. We do not get younger and the sooner you make the move the better. I am sorry if my post is a little off today but i feel down some steps and took some pain pills along with being unable to sleep. my dog was at the top of the steps and i tried to go over her well she got up right when i went to step over her. ok well i wish you the best.
__________________
johnar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2007, 04:29 PM   #33
Commander
 
Peter Owen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 138
Default

Richard, I've been trying to find such groups for a while because I really would like to get some experience of sailing/cruising with the sort of rig which has so grabbed my attention. I seem to remember finding Freedom and Nonsuch owner's club but both seemed to be focussed locally - probably means that there aren't too many such rigs cruising out there - not necessarily a good sign! Even Eric Sponberg who you rightly point out has a keen interest in freestanding rigs and, in particular, coupling them with a rotating mast doesn't seem to know of such communities.

Johnar, While I'm not really interested in single handing all the time, there are times when it'd be nice to make shorter passages alone. The problem then is handling a bigger piece of kit when the going gets a bt tougher. Earlier this year I brought a very solid 43 footer around the south east corner of Spain with an inexperienced crew and got a hit by a persistent series of line squalls with sustained gusts of 35-40 knots - not too much of a problem but complicated by a mast furling main which decided to jam half way out - or was it in - and an engine that we could only run for about 10 minutes because even its dual Racors couldn't handle the crap churned up from the bottom of the tanks for long enough to clear the serial failures. Not necessarily an argument for freestanding rigs but certainly time to ponder the merits of in-mast furling to say nothing of making sure that the fuel tanks aren't gunged up before setting out on an otherwise simple overnighter!

I take your point about lack of money but the problem is really how you invest what you've got. I've recently been considering the higher capital cost end of the "project boat" option ie seaworthy but needing to be re-eqipped and the resounding advice here and from other forums was don't do it unless you know what you're doing, have time and/or a bottomless bank account and are prepared to put in enormous time and effort; also, of course, as has been suggested here, consider a smaller boat!

This leaves, dare I say, guys like you and me with the problem of finding/coming across a desirable/acceptable boat that is as near as damnit ready to go. I've found a couple but, while I can manage the capital expense, the weighted recurring and unexpected revenue implications put me beyond what I might call comfortable so for the moment .......

..... there's a lot to be said for the OP Yacht Club which is a pretty good place to be while waiting, Macawber-like, for something to turn up!

Sail safely; see ya!
__________________
Peter Owen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2007, 06:11 PM   #34
Ensign
 
jimthomsen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 12
Default

A great resource is John Neal from Mahina Expeditions. Check out his site: mahina.com John runs ocean sailing expeditions during the summer. He also helps people find cruising boats and is very honest. I think he charges about $300 and that lasts until you find a boat. Send him an email and ask how he works. I would trust his opinion.
__________________
Jim

tenayatravels.com
jimthomsen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2007, 06:32 PM   #35
Rear Admiral
 
imagine2frolic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 396
Default

Hey John,

I looked for you online for awhile, but we must have been missing eachother. I can't remember if I had mentioned Columbias? I recently sold a 30 footer with new sails, new roller furling, new ball bearing traveler, new custion, fresh motor, windless, 2 autopilots, solar panel, radar, bbq, and the list goes on for 10k. I was tired of supporting 2 boats, and I onlyn used the Columbia once a year for a day, or 2.

Keep looking you will find something like I had sold. The boat was a Puerta Vallarta vet from S.F. CA., and back. I did it single-handed. The mid 30 foot Columbias can be very solid boats, and priced right for you. Even the 43 foot is a nice boat, but a little to open down below for bad weather. That can be fixed though. Good to see you posting again.....John

P.S., let me know if you come down to Florida. Maybe we can hook up..............John
__________________
imagine2frolic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2007, 10:59 PM   #36
Admiral
 
MMNETSEA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,067
Default



It is true that Cruiserlog is also the respected forum where advice on selecting , buying and selling your cruising dream is readily available from our members with years and thousands of sea miles of experience. And it's free.
__________________
MMNETSEA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2007, 06:41 AM   #37
Ensign
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 35
Default

Hello All,

I have a few questions about rigging today, what I would like to know is the work/cost involved in changing the rigging from a ketch to a Junk Sail rig??? I am guessing the mast and everything needs to be replaced, to me that sounds very costly. lets say it is a 38' Ketch with Displacement of 18,800 lb. I know that the price will change depending on where and when the work would be done but just a guess and the cost and work would help me a lot. From the first time i seen the Junk Rig i fell in love.

Oh also can the Ketch rigging be sold easy after the work is done? To reclaim some of the cost.

thank you,

John
__________________
johnar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2007, 07:47 AM   #38
Admiral
 
MMNETSEA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,067
Default

Hi John,

To arrive at a work/cost 'guestimate'of changing a "Ketch" into a "Junk rigged Boat" - it would be necessary know exactlly what "Ketch" we are talking about as there are countless designs for different models and sizes. Next it would be necessary to know what "Junk Rig " is the subject of the question : also many different types of junks -- see http://www.ayrs.org/Index19.html

Honestly, there are so many issues to be considered in a project of this nature - nearly impossible to answer in a forum. Even if you had a suitable KETCH in a boat builders yard and asked them for a quotation to convert it to a JUNK - doubt if you would get an agreeable answer.

The best bet is probably to find a boat that is already junk rigged as the result of a specific design criteria.

Richard
__________________
MMNETSEA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2007, 08:09 AM   #39
Ensign
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 35
Default

Thank you Richard, I was kind of thinking it would not be that easy.

John
__________________
johnar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2007, 03:31 PM   #40
Rear Admiral
 
imagine2frolic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 396
Default

I can say this about the transformation. My neighbor on a 29ft. Columbia went from a sloop to a 2 masted junk rig. He was very short on funds, and did all the work himself. He sold everything off, and that paid for the new material. Possibly your cost can also be covered by the sale of the rig? Sounds like a nice project. Keep us posted on that new thought,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,John
__________________

__________________
imagine2frolic is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How Long Can We Go Without Breaking Something? redbopeep Our Virtual Yacht Club 16 09-07-2010 08:28 PM
Breaking In A Novice AVoisine Cruising Crew Wanted 5 01-25-2010 08:06 PM
Breaking News MMNETSEA General Cruising Forum 0 09-16-2008 07:40 AM
One Step Closer - Chart Advice, Cat Advice, Tom Farley General Cruising Forum 25 03-21-2008 09:38 PM

Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

RV & Travel Trailer Communities

Our RV & Travel Trailer sites encompasses virtually all types of Recreational Vehicles, from brand-specific to general RV communities.

» More about our RV Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


All times are GMT. The time now is 05:04 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.0
×